Katz on coaches who never played ball

[NYWarrior]

a PRN special, I'm guessin!   

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=3045864

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I have been saying for YEARS that his lack of a basketball playing background affects how he relates to players and his situational thought process. I'm not saying we need an NBA player or a former All-American, but somebody who at least played high school basketball would be preferred (at least for me). Izzo is a perfect example.

That said...and before you all start to freak out...I think Crean is a decent coach. It's just that he's the most overrated (and overpaid) coach in college basketball. Milwaukee is the classic big fish/small pond scenario for a small town guy like Crean. He'd be barbequed in a bigger market.

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

Out of curiousity, does having assistants who have basketball playing experience negate Crean's lack of playing experience?

In most set-ups, the assistants are the ones who foster the relationships and bonds with the kids and help guide them along when the head coach rips their ass.

As for the small/large market, Crean isn't exactly loved in Milwaukee in some spots. On a public scale, he got a pretty good ripping for years for the UWM fiasco and seeing as how Milwaukee is plum full of Badger alums Crean certainly gets roasted a bit but maybe not barbequed like you'd want.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I have been saying for YEARS that his lack of a basketball playing background affects how he relates to players and his situational thought process. I'm not saying we need an NBA player or a former All-American, but somebody who at least played high school basketball would be preferred (at least for me). Izzo is a perfect example.

That said...and before you all start to freak out...I think Crean is a decent coach. It's just that he's the most overrated (and overpaid) coach in college basketball. Milwaukee is the classic big fish/small pond scenario for a small town guy like Crean. He'd be barbequed in a bigger market.

PRN isn't it people that relate to people ultimately?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I have been saying for YEARS that his lack of a basketball playing background affects how he relates to players and his situational thought process. I'm not saying we need an NBA player or a former All-American, but somebody who at least played high school basketball would be preferred (at least for me). Izzo is a perfect example.

That said...and before you all start to freak out...I think Crean is a decent coach. It's just that he's the most overrated (and overpaid) coach in college basketball. Milwaukee is the classic big fish/small pond scenario for a small town guy like Crean. He'd be barbequed in a bigger market.

How did you survive the years between Al and Crean?

As much as I love Hank and Rick... they (or any other MU coach not named Al) haven't been nearly as successful as Crean.

How can he be overrated?

You can hate the guy... but his track record is impressive and is still getting better.

[muwarrior87]

especially since now it looks like he's recruiting players that fit into the style of play MU has more and also is starting to come up with a style of play.

[The Lens]

I have been saying for YEARS that his lack of a basketball playing background affects how he relates to players and his situational thought process. I'm not saying we need an NBA player or a former All-American, but somebody who at least played high school basketball would be preferred (at least for me). Izzo is a perfect example.

That said...and before you all start to freak out...I think Crean is a decent coach. It's just that he's the most overrated (and overpaid) coach in college basketball. Milwaukee is the classic big fish/small pond scenario for a small town guy like Crean. He'd be barbequed in a bigger market.

How did you survive the years between Al and Crean?

 

Well I know I chose to go to MU in the winter of 1992/93 and I graduated in 1997.  In those 5 years, MU went to 4 NCAAs and an NIT Championship Game.  It was tough, but I survived.

 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I have been saying for YEARS that his lack of a basketball playing background affects how he relates to players and his situational thought process. I'm not saying we need an NBA player or a former All-American, but somebody who at least played high school basketball would be preferred (at least for me). Izzo is a perfect example.

That said...and before you all start to freak out...I think Crean is a decent coach. It's just that he's the most overrated (and overpaid) coach in college basketball. Milwaukee is the classic big fish/small pond scenario for a small town guy like Crean. He'd be barbequed in a bigger market.

How did you survive the years between Al and Crean?

 

Well I know I chose to go to MU in the winter of 1992/93 and I graduated in 1997.  In those 5 years, MU went to 4 NCAAs and an NIT Championship Game.  It was tough, but I survived.

 

Very true... but are you also calling our current coach (who has been very successful) "the most overrated (and overpaid) coach in college basketball."?

The program is reaching heights it hasn't seen since the 70's.

How can Crean be overrated?

A little annoying? Maybe

Weird dresser? Maybe

Demanding? Definitely

Second best coach at MU? Sure is looking like it

Overrated? Probably not

[ChicosBailBonds]

I have been saying for YEARS that his lack of a basketball playing background affects how he relates to players and his situational thought process. I'm not saying we need an NBA player or a former All-American, but somebody who at least played high school basketball would be preferred (at least for me). Izzo is a perfect example.

That said...and before you all start to freak out...I think Crean is a decent coach. It's just that he's the most overrated (and overpaid) coach in college basketball. Milwaukee is the classic big fish/small pond scenario for a small town guy like Crean. He'd be barbequed in a bigger market.

How did you survive the years between Al and Crean?

 

Well I know I chose to go to MU in the winter of 1992/93 and I graduated in 1997.  In those 5 years, MU went to 4 NCAAs and an NIT Championship Game.  It was tough, but I survived.

 

I was there 1987-1992....one NIT first round loss, three losing seasons, and a fourth season with a winning record and no tournament of any kind.  It was a blast....eh NY Warrior?

[4everwarriors]

Kansas handing his butt to him on a silver platter for all the world to see, what has he done in 8 years?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Kansas handing his butt to him on a silver platter for all the world to see, what has he done in 8 years?

Wow. I'm glad you asked.

To save time, I'm simply going to recycle a post I wrote previously (below).

You and another poster seem to hold Crean solely responsible for a lot and/or most negative things that happen at MU. My response is below (I've bolded the key points to save everybody some time).

Feel free to provide some more of your insightful and much needed thoughts.

I look forward to reading your well thought out response and additional posts on this board.

Thanks.

My point is not about having a hole in the lineup...it's about over booking scholarships. I don't know what you want in a program, but I don't want my school offering people scholarships and than reneging on the offer.

And, despite his record of showing up with teams completely unprepared to play in the post season (see Tulsa, Holy Cross, Kansas, Alabama, MSU, Western Michigan), I don't think Crean is a particularly "lousy coach." I just think he's a complete tool.

We know you think he is a tool... and I appreciate the full disclosure so at least we can take that into consideration.

Now, as I've said in the past, if you are going to hold the coach solely accountable for every loss or everything that you don't like about the program (press conferences, radio interviews, recruiting, schedule, gold t-shirts, losses)... you need to give him full credit for all of the good things he has done and big wins he has had.

While I will agree that sometimes Coach can come off a little bit "salesmen like", I also have to admit that his overall track record at MU is pretty damn good. (wins at the GAS x2, wins at the coaches vs cancer thing last year, beat cinci for the conf. title, beat mizzou, PITT, and UK on the way to the final 4, recruited 3 NBA players, help launch team into the big east, helped get the AL built, donated money to the new soccer stadium, does a great job with Al's run etc. etc.)

There isn't a problem with you blaming the coach for everything that goes wrong... but then you have to give him FULL CREDIT when things go right.

If you don't, well, then you just appear like a dude who hates Crean (for some reason) and your opinions just appear way too slanted.

Crean is not perfect, nor is he above criticism, but your dislike of him personally clouds your judgment of what he has accomplished.

[The Lens]

Consider me one Crean Critic who will never ever bring up the KU game.  After beating #1 UK, everything was gravy.  I'll never understand the fascination with the KU game.  Similarily I'll never understand how people seem ok with the blank check mentality towards Coach Crean.  An entire class of MU students have come and gone and we didn't win a NCAA game.  I'm not advocating getting rid of him but some checks and balances (ie a real AD) would be nice.

[muhoosier260]

Kansas handing his butt to him on a silver platter for all the world to see, what has he done in 8 years?

why do you even watch MU bball or talk about it if its so forgettable and bad? do us all a favor and just not post on this board. better yet, is there a way we can filter posts so we don't have to read certain posters messages? ahem

[NYWarrior]

I was there 1987-1992....one NIT first round loss, three losing seasons, and a fourth season with a winning record and no tournament of any kind.  It was a blast....eh NY Warrior?

that was a rough era, no question!

[Murffieus]

There are two seasons at MU since TC has been here:

Starting with the first conference game in January through the first loss in February MU is 50 wins and 20 losses in the previous 8 seasons. Starting with that first loss in February through the end of the season we're 35 wins and 44 losses under Crean those 8 seasons.

We run out of gas! Players worked too hard?????

[Marquette84]

There are two seasons at MU since TC has been here:

Starting with the first conference game in January through the first loss in February MU is 50 wins and 20 losses in the previous 8 seasons. Starting with that first loss in February through the end of the season we're 35 wins and 44 losses under Crean those 8 seasons.

We run out of gas! Players worked too hard?????

Did you forget that the schedule typically gets tougher for MU at the end of the year--like last season when those last few games included @Notre Dame (where EVERYONE lost last year), Georgetown, Louisvlle, 2x vs. Pitt, etc.

Nothing like a half-truth, eh, Murff?  Tell the WHOLE story next time. 

[Schoolyard]

There are two seasons at MU since TC has been here:

Starting with the first conference game in January through the first loss in February MU is 50 wins and 20 losses in the previous 8 seasons. Starting with that first loss in February through the end of the season we're 35 wins and 44 losses under Crean those 8 seasons.

We run out of gas! Players worked too hard?????

Did you forget that the schedule typically gets tougher for MU at the end of the year--like last season when those last few games included @Notre Dame (where EVERYONE lost last year), Georgetown, Louisvlle, 2x vs. Pitt, etc.

Nothing like a half-truth, eh, Murff?  Tell the WHOLE story next time. 

So you're saying CvC opponents, UW, GAS opponents, CBE opponents etc aren't tough?  I guarantee you we win the Maui this year and then I'm pretty confident we won't play to our seed in the BET or the NCAA.  Fact is TC's teams play worse down the stretch*.  It doesn't matter if the teams are Michigan State or Western Michigan.

*2003 is an obvious exception, thank you.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Kansas handing his butt to him on a silver platter for all the world to see, what has he done in 8 years?

I thought Kansas handed our entire team on a silver platter....I was there about 6 rows up behind the basket.  Of course the preceding 3 weeks all the world saw us beat #1 Kentucky, top 5 Pittsburgh, top 25 Missouri, Cincinnati, Louisville, Wake Forest, etc.

And of course since then 20 wins in the Big East (only two other teams have accomplished that), etc, etc, etc.

But hey, we've had this discussion so many times.  You can be bitter through life or enjoy the ride.  I'm going to enjoy it because he's here for the next decade.

[muhoosier260]

" But hey, we've had this discussion so many times.  You can be bitter through life or enjoy the ride.  I'm going to enjoy it because he's here for the next decade. "
AMEN

[Murffieus]

SJS/84----there isn't a great deal of difference in the quality of the schedule between with the first game after January 1 to the first loss in February------and between the first loss in February and the last game of the season!

It's just that we are a significantly better team in the first segment than we are in the last segment of the schedule!

Furthermore even if the quality of the schedule was better in the last segment, it wouldn't account for the difference between 50 & 20 and 35 & 44 !

[Schoolyard]

IMHO it comes down to the fact that TC never played the game even at a HS level and he just doesn't know when to lay off the gas. You can do Tae Kwon Do, talk to Tony LaRussa till he's sober and audit a Bill Parcells practice all you want but there is something to be said for having a little game experience.  He is all book knowledge...I remember a coach who once preached about street smarts.

This is a big year...i we play to our seed in the BET / NCAAs a lot of perceptions can change.  I hope we do, I hope I'm proven wrong.

[Marquette84]

SJS/84----there isn't a great deal of difference in the quality of the schedule between with the first game after January 1 to the first loss in February------and between the first loss in February and the last game of the season!

Thats simply not true on multiple aspects. 

Just once I'd like you to explain how you can staight faced say that the 2005 team "ran out of gas".  That year MU lost seven of nine games in January and early February, but recovered to win four of the last five regular season games.  I call that a late season improvement.  What do you call it? 

In 1999, MU started conference play with an 0-5 record, but improved to finish the year 6-5.  Once again, this doesn't sound like a team that "ran out of gas."

Then, you blithely ignore examples like last season where we had an 8 game win streak where the opponents RPI averaged 108, while the last 8 games (and 3-5 record) the opponents averaged RPI of 38.  yet you claim "there isn't a great deal of difference.  Yeah, right.  38 to 105 is a hell of a difference in anyone's book.  Except yours.

In 2002, 2 late season losses were to the #3 rpi team in Cincinnati.  And if you want to argue that the upset by East Carolina was due to "Running out of Gas", then you'll have to explain two things:  First, how did that "out of gas" team manage to blow-out DePaul the very next game, and b) how did next year's MU final four "fresh" team lose an early season matchup to the same ECU team at the same venue?

Your post is riddled with half truths and inaccuracies.  They say that figures don't lie and liars do figure.  Your convoluted "first loss in February" manipulations don't reflect the accuracy of the situation, no matter how many times you repeat it.

If you want to explain that you really think 38 to 105 RPI refelcts no difference, then make the case.  If you want to explain how losing five games in a row to start the year, then finishing 6-5 is "running out of gas", I'm all ears.

So far, you keep repeating the same argument, and I keep repeating the same flaws in your argument.  That you can't dismiss my flaws with any semi-rational argument is proof enough that you are intellectually bankrupt on this one.

[Murffieus]

50 wins vs 20 losses in the first half of conference play (70 games)-----against 35 wins vs 44 losses in the rest of conference play/postseason is not a "half truth or inaccuracy"!

Look up the record!

[Marquette84]

50 wins vs 20 losses in the first half of conference play (70 games)-----against 35 wins vs 44 losses in the rest of conference play/postseason is not a "half truth or inaccuracy"!

Look up the record!

Yes, yes--we all know the record.  You've repeated it dozens of times.  It's still a half truth.   See my post above for some examples why.

[Knight Commission]

this coming from an ESPN analyst who never played the game--not many exist.