[Paint Touches] APR scores released; Marquette eighth in Big East

[Tugg Speedman]

If this measure was that important, it would be released that weekend of the FF4 or the NC football game.

Instead it is released in the middle of June when no one is paying attention, which puts it importance in prospective.

As long as your school qualifies, no one cares about this and this story will be forgotten by Monday.

[tower912]

MU should strive for both.   But this mark has more to do with players who have played their last game for MU getting prepared for the NBA draft and leaving campus to do so (not taking classes anymore) than it does with any academic deficiencies.    MU provides world class academic support, suspends kids when they don't stay eligible, works with them to bring their academics up, and makes sure they stay in class even as they prepare to transfer.   For better or worse, we have had players in the last couple of years who, after the season was over, chose to get ready for the draft rather than continue to go to class.    I don't know if there is a remedy for that. 

[GGGG]

For the life of me, I can't understand why people fret and worry over this.  As tower says, it would be pretty silly to say that MU doesn't take academics seriously. 

[bilsu]

How the number is calculated is a little quirky. One of the things that might impact MU is players leaving before the semester ends to start working out with an agent to prepare for NBA, before the school year is out. I do not know, but I suspect Blue will not complete his 2nd semester of this year, which will impact MU's score for a couple of years.

[frozena pizza]

As long as we are comfortably above the threshold to be eligible for the postseason, I'm not that worried about this.  Most of the schools are bunched pretty tightly and we just happen to be at the bottom of that group.  More shocking to me is Providence being potentially ineligible.

Marquette definitely provides advantages to student athletes, including personalized tutoring and first dibs on easy classes.  It probably pales in comparison to some other schools and for graduation purposes they are held to the same general requirements.  But to say that they are held to the exact same standard as any other student isn't really accurate.  Of course, the average student isn't going through grueling workouts every day, breaking down film and getting on flights twice a week.

[Badgerhater]

I am not going to be too concerned about the Lazars, DJOs and Crowders of the team leaving school so they can prepare for the NBA draft.

[MU82]

For the life of me, I can't understand why people fret and worry over this.  As tower says, it would be pretty silly to say that MU doesn't take academics seriously. 

Agreed.

To quote a great sage: "These aren't the droids you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along."

[Benny B]

Repeat after Jay Bee: "APR doesn't measure grades or graduation"


Two pages of conjecture about academics vs. athletics based upon a simple statistic that has hardly anything to do with either.  Welcome to the off-season.

[MerrittsMustache]

Sorry, I lost my head for a second. I was confused and actually thought college was about learning. Silly me.

College is about helping a person be prepared for his or her chosen profession. If a person is realistically choosing to become a professional basketball player, what's more valuable to him: 9 history credits or pre-draft workouts with NBA teams? The ability to finish a degree will always be there. The window to play professional basketball can close very quickly.

Put another way, if someone told you that you had an opportunity for your absolute dream job but you'd need to leave school in the middle of your final semester, would you take that opportunity?

[ChicosBailBonds]

The APR scores have nothing to do with the academic integrity of a school. In fact, in many cases it might be the exact opposite. If you offer easy classes (i.e. basketweaving) to your student athletes you will be awarded since the only two things the APR score considers is classes passed and graduation rate. If you offer the same type of classes other students take to your student athletes, you will be penalized (since there's a chance athletes may not pass their class).

Take Alabama for example. Their football team has a APR score of 978. But I would still take our basketball team in a quiz bowl over the entire Alabama team in a heartbeat.

Should we try to increase our APR by creating these easy classes or should we educated our student athletes in the same way we do for the rest of our student body? I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not as simple a situation as you may believe.  

Historically, and there are studies to back this up, football players tend to do better academically, have higher IQ's, etc.  I think that would be more than an interesting bet.  A lot of people here rip on Alabama academics, but I think folks should look at the ratings of Alabama academically before getting too excited. 

Any university the size of Alabama, Wisconsin, Ohio State, etc, will have crazy easy classes and majors. 

[tower912]

I know Alabama was recruiting my daughter's high school hard, looking for the smart kids, offering huge financial packages as well as laptops, in order to boost their academic rank.   In other words, they are trying to poach smart kids from the north. 

[Pakuni]

Historically, and there are studies to back this up, football players tend to do better academically, have higher IQ's, etc.  I think that would be more than an interesting bet.  A lot of people here rip on Alabama academics, but I think folks should look at the ratings of Alabama academically before getting too excited. 

Any university the size of Alabama, Wisconsin, Ohio State, etc, will have crazy easy classes and majors. 

Alabama actually is a pretty good school .... certainly not one that Marquette people should turn their nose up at (thereby acting like a UW person). It's a case where athletic success gives the false impression that it's cakewalk academically (same with Florida).

Now, Auburn academics on the other hand ....

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

College is about helping a person be prepared for his or her chosen profession. If a person is realistically choosing to become a professional basketball player, what's more valuable to him: 9 history credits or pre-draft workouts with NBA teams? The ability to finish a degree will always be there. The window to play professional basketball can close very quickly.

Put another way, if someone told you that you had an opportunity for your absolute dream job but you'd need to leave school in the middle of your final semester, would you take that opportunity?

I wouldn't say that's entirely accurate, especially for a Jesuit school.

For a tradeschool, it's all about the career prep.

For a Jesuit institution, there is a little more to it than cranking out people who are ready for (insert career).

That's why there is a phil, and theo requirement.


I'd love to see the guys who are close to getting their degree come back and get it. I know it's not needed, but it's a nice accomplishment for them and for MU.

[MerrittsMustache]

I wouldn't say that's entirely accurate, especially for a Jesuit school.

For a tradeschool, it's all about the career prep.

For a Jesuit institution, there is a little more to it than cranking out people who are ready for (insert career).

That's why there is a phil, and theo requirement.


I'd love to see the guys who are close to getting their degree come back and get it. I know it's not needed, but it's a nice accomplishment for them and for MU.

I probably should have phrased that differently. College is about preparing people for their life in the "real world" and outside of academia, be that a life as a lawyer, engineer, teacher, businessman, basketball player, etc.


Also, philosophy classes are a waste of time  

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I probably should have phrased that differently. College is about preparing people for their life in the "real world" and outside of academia, be that a life as a lawyer, engineer, teacher, businessman, basketball player, etc.


Also, philosophy classes are a waste of time  

Yea, I mean, in a vacuum, college is a perfect place of higher learning and exploration. Learning for the sake of learning.

But, we know for most people, it's a means to an end. You go to good college to get a good job so you can be successful at (insert career).

With this said, I'd still like the guys who are close to finish up. A knee can blow at any time. A college degree will always serve those guys well.

[Groin_pull]

Historically, and there are studies to back this up, football players tend to do better academically, have higher IQ's, etc.  I think that would be more than an interesting bet.  A lot of people here rip on Alabama academics, but I think folks should look at the ratings of Alabama academically before getting too excited. 

Any university the size of Alabama, Wisconsin, Ohio State, etc, will have crazy easy classes and majors. 

Football is not a sport for the brainless. Just take a look at any college or NFL playbook.

[GGGG]

Football is not a sport for the brainless. Just take a look at any college or NFL playbook.

There are a lot of morons that play football.  Just look at the Wonderlic test.  The average skill position player, outside of a QB, scores about the same as a security guard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_Test

[MUFlutieEffect]

I realize this is a redundant comment on my part, but regardless of philosophical opinions on college athletics, this is embarrassing - need to get it together and at least crack the top 5 - preferably top two or three.

[GGGG]

I realize this is a redundant comment on my part, but regardless of philosophical opinions on college athletics, this is embarrassing - need to get it together and at least crack the top 5 - preferably top two or three.

What is embarrassing about it?  Are we being raked over the coals by the national press?  Are the weenies on the Badger boards talking about us?

Do you realize that part of the reason for the drop in score is because we had last year's BE player of the year...who was drafted and played a decent role for the Mavericks this year?  How about another player that dropped 29 in an NCAA tournament game...won another with a last second lay-up....and clinched the BE championship with another.

So would you trade Jae Crowder or Vander Blue for higher APR scores?  (Not sure if Vander leaving counts against this year's score but the point stands...)

And what exactly do they need to "get together."  Is it embarrassing that MU had two players graduate the semesters they were working out for the NBA draft...and still got drafted?  (JFB and DJO)  Yeah, MU needs to get their sh*t together and take academics more seriously.  GMAFB.

[ChicosBailBonds]

There are a lot of morons that play football.  Just look at the Wonderlic test.  The average skill position player, outside of a QB, scores about the same as a security guard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_Test

There are some, but considering most teams have 85 players that's going to happen.  Compare that to the 12 or 13 basketball players and the studies I've seen over the years suggest it's going to come up roses for the football players.

[forgetful]

There are some, but considering most teams have 85 players that's going to happen.  Compare that to the 12 or 13 basketball players and the studies I've seen over the years suggest it's going to come up roses for the football players.

Chico's, obviously there are exceptions, but at the high D1 level this is partially like arguing who is smarter, McDonalds or Burger King employees.

If you compare your average Football or Basketball player to other extra curriculars (Soccer, Volleyball, Dance/Theatre), the others win hands down.

[leever]

Alabama actually is a pretty good school .... certainly not one that Marquette people should turn their nose up at (thereby acting like a UW person). It's a case where athletic success gives the false impression that it's cakewalk academically (same with Florida).

Now, Auburn academics on the other hand ....

It's Alabama.  It's Alabama.

[MerrittsMustache]

Chico's, obviously there are exceptions, but at the high D1 level this is partially like arguing who is smarter, McDonalds or Burger King employees.

If you compare your average Football or Basketball player to other extra curriculars (Soccer, Volleyball, Dance/Theatre), the others win hands down.

It's apples to oranges. Getting higher grades doesn't necessarily mean they're more intelligent.

Students in other extracurriculars are likely to take their academics more seriously since there aren't a lot of volleyball players whose primary reason for attending college is because they got a volleyball scholarship. At an overwhelming majority of schools, soccer players, track athletes, thespians, etc are largely viewed as regular students who happen to be involved in extracurriculars. Very few students are going to be professionals at their extracurricular so their grades and scores matter more. Didn't you see that Enterprise commercial a thousand times during the NCAA Tournament?

How seriously would you take academics if you were majoring in communications but knew that there was a 6-figure job waiting for you in a field unrelated to your major?

[WarriorInNYC]

It's apples to oranges. Getting higher grades doesn't necessarily mean they're more intelligent.

Students in other extracurriculars are likely to take their academics more seriously since there aren't a lot of volleyball players whose primary reason for attending college is because they got a volleyball scholarship. At an overwhelming majority of schools, soccer players, track athletes, thespians, etc are largely viewed as regular students who happen to be involved in extracurriculars. Very few students are going to be professionals at their extracurricular so their grades and scores matter more. Didn't you see that Enterprise commercial a thousand times during the NCAA Tournament?

How seriously would you take academics if you were majoring in communications but knew that there was a 6-figure job waiting for you in a field unrelated to your major?

Just seriously enough in order to get by and maintain eligibility honestly.

In fact, I had an internship before my final year of school that led to a job offer prior to the school year starting.  I didn't necessarily blow my classes off, but there was a large difference in the amount of effort I put forth compared to prior years because I knew I already had a job that I wanted lined up.  And this job was related to my major.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chico's, obviously there are exceptions, but at the high D1 level this is partially like arguing who is smarter, McDonalds or Burger King employees.

If you compare your average Football or Basketball player to other extra curriculars (Soccer, Volleyball, Dance/Theatre), the others win hands down.

Depends on the sport.  Vs soccer, correct (glad I was a soccer player  .  Versus many others, you would be surprised.  The studies from back in the day when I was in college athletics did not bare that out vs many other sports in comparison to football.  The hypothesis at the time was football players have one game per week, they only travel to 5 or 6 road games, miss very little class time, etc, etc.  In fact, football players miss fewer class time than any other sport sans some one offs like Swim teams, gymnastics, rifle and such.  That typically translated into better grades.  The studies also got into the socioeconomic backgrounds and typically a college football team had more kids from backgrounds that displayed tendencies to perform better in the classroom.  Middle class, upper middle class, suburban as well as rural, etc.

Maybe the data has changed since then, but I would be a bit surprised if it has.