MLB to possibly suspend A-Rod, Braun, others

[SaintPaulWarrior]

It'd be a great comment if only Braun had actually said that.

Braun is a liar and that is why someone has to say it for him.

[🏀]

Regardless of suspension outcome, Braun has been well placed in the not-HOF list.

[GGGG]

Of course not, he didn't committ a crime, which you consider much more important than God's Law.

Perhaps you should learn how to read.  It would be helpful.

[reinko]

Regardless of suspension outcome, Braun has been well placed in the not-HOF list.

By the time Braun is HOF eligible 75% of the current writers will have already succumbed to heart disease.

[Hards Alumni]

By the time Braun is HOF eligible 75% of the current writers will have already succumbed to heart disease.

Not to mention, 75% of the HOF candidates will get caught doping.

[Pakuni]

Of course not, he didn't committ a crime, which you consider much more important than God's Law.

WWJD when it comes to PEDs?

[NavinRJohnson]

Braun is a liar and that is why someone has to say it for him.

Who said it on his behalf? Specific citations would be helpful.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

Who said it on his behalf? Specific citations would be helpful.

Future Hall of Famer and non-doper Frank Thomas said it on his behalf.

[Lennys Tap]

When a guy's defenders turn from outright denial to the "everyone does it" excuse can the slamming of the door and the sound of the key turning in the lock be far away?

[Pakuni]

I am fairly certain that Braun did PEDs.  Just like I am fairly certain all those you list did the things you are saying as well.

However, I also am fairly certain that he it will be very difficult to suspend him at all, much less for 100 games, based on third party testimony without some sort of evidence. 

You don't think perhaps Bosch kept records of what his company was shipping and to who? Is that not evidence? Does a defense of "Well, yeah, I ordered and received the PEDs, but I didn't actually use them" sound meritorious?

And I'm not sure why "third-party testimony" is being used as a pejorative here. There's nothing inherently bad about third-party testimony.

[mu03eng]

You don't think perhaps Bosch kept records of what his company was shipping and to who? Is that not evidence? Does a defense of "Well, yeah, I ordered and received the PEDs, but I didn't actually use them" sound meritorious?

And I'm not sure why "third-party testimony" is being used as a pejorative here. There's nothing inherently bad about third-party testimony.

There is when it is compelled via strong arm tactics and borderline extortion schemes veiled as a lawsuit.  I'm willing to change my tune if more comes out, but based on what I've seen there isn't anything other then Bosch's word and some cryptic notes(designed to not be clearly understood) that link these players to PEDs, and that all could very easily be manipulated to make players appear guilty.

Of course I think Braun and others used PEDs but the point is, the so called evidence is a known liar that is trying to avoid bankrupcy and some intentionally obfuscating documents.  That would be barely circumstantial evidence in Law and Order let alone the real legal system.

Additionally, if the evidence was really solid, MLB would not have leaked this and attached nuclear level suspensions(MLBPA will go ballistic if they actually try that).  MLB is trying to push things through so they can say they cleaned up the game and move on, they are trying to make up for their extremely slow reaction when PEDs first came up.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

There is when it is compelled via strong arm tactics and borderline extortion schemes veiled as a lawsuit. 

Aren't most "witnesses"/informants flipped via strong arm tactics?

I mean, it's not like a lot of criminals suddenly have a change of heart and then rat our everybody they worked with.

They usually get caught, and the best way to save their own butt is to rat out their organization.

This seems like the same thing, right?

[GGGG]

You don't think perhaps Bosch kept records of what his company was shipping and to who? Is that not evidence? Does a defense of "Well, yeah, I ordered and received the PEDs, but I didn't actually use them" sound meritorious?

And I'm not sure why "third-party testimony" is being used as a pejorative here. There's nothing inherently bad about third-party testimony.

Third party testimony that is obtained through strong-arm tactics like filing a lawsuit against the guy, should be considered in doubt without other evidence that is provided.

[Pakuni]

Third party testimony that is obtained through strong-arm tactics like filing a lawsuit against the guy, should be considered in doubt without other evidence that is provided.

I think your mistake here is in thinking this guy's testimony is the entirety of MLB's case. It's not. The documentation is the case. His testimony merely corroborates/supports/explains the documentation.
As in any judicial/quasi judicial proceeding, you need a person's testimony to introduce evidence, such as medical records.
So, for example, in a murder trial, you need a physician and/or medical examiner to testify as to the medical record regarding injuries and cause of death. You can't just turn in the autopsy report.
In this case, MLB needs Bosch to testify that the documents/records implicating the players are accurate and were produced contemporaneously to his company providing these players with certain substances.

As for the so-called "strong-arm tactics," what MLB is doing here is neither uncommon or inappropriate.

[NavinRJohnson]

As for the so-called "strong-arm tactics," what MLB is doing here is neither uncommon or inappropriate.

We'll see if the MLBPA agrees, particularly if MLB does try to go through with suspensions, which I think is far from a certainty. This strikes me as a huge risk where the relationship with the Union is concerned, lawsuits, etc. that's why I highly doubt there will be any suspensions handed out, nevermind them being served.

[Hards Alumni]

Aren't most "witnesses"/informants flipped via strong arm tactics?

I mean, it's not like a lot of criminals suddenly have a change of heart and then rat our everybody they worked with.

They usually get caught, and the best way to save their own butt is to rat out their organization.

This seems like the same thing, right?

The problem with this is that the MLB can do nothing to Bosch.  They can't strongarm him... they probably can compensate him financially... and he is in desperate need of cash.  Wouldn't someone who is desperate for cash say pretty much anything to get that cash?

This is why there needs to be hard documentation (there probably isn't) that the 20 players named were actually sent PED's from Biogenesis.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The problem with this is that the MLB can do nothing to Bosch.  They can't strongarm him... they probably can compensate him financially... and he is in desperate need of cash.  Wouldn't someone who is desperate for cash say pretty much anything to get that cash?

This is why there needs to be hard documentation (there probably isn't) that the 20 players named were actually sent PED's from Biogenesis.

That's fair.

Not all testimony is created equal.

But, strong-arming/rewarding an informant or witness isn't new. It's pretty common, and I've never heard anybody question the tactic as much as some people (not just this board) are now.

LOTS of criminals are convicted using testimony from witnesses/informants who are "encouraged" to testify.

DON'T YOU PEOPLE WATCH LAW AND ORDER?


EDIT: As a follow-up, Braun/player's union are welcome to argue that the guy is a liar and not a reputable witness/expert.

But, then my follow-up question would be: If he's so unreputable, why would you use him for consulting?

It's a double edged sword for Braun (at this point).

[Pakuni]

We'll see if the MLBPA agrees, particularly if MLB does try to go through with suspensions, which I think is far from a certainty. This strikes me as a huge risk where the relationship with the Union is concerned, lawsuits, etc. that's why I highly doubt there will be any suspensions handed out, nevermind them being served.

Whether the MLBPA disagrees here is largely irrelevant. They don't have much real power to prevent the suspensions.
And I think you're mistaken if you believe the PA is going to upset two decades of labor peace for the sake of a small minority of its membership. The bulk of the PA's members don't feel sorry for them.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2013/06/05/mlb-biogenesis-tony-bosch-suspensions-alex-rodriguez-ryan-braun-peers/2393261/

[Hards Alumni]

That's fair.

Not all testimony is created equal.

But, strong-arming/rewarding an informant or witness isn't new. It's pretty common, and I've never heard anybody question the tactic as much as some people (not just this board) are now.

LOTS of criminals are convicted using testimony from witnesses/informants who are "encouraged" to testify.

DON'T YOU PEOPLE WATCH LAW AND ORDER?


EDIT: As a follow-up, Braun/player's union are welcome to argue that the guy is a liar and not a reputable witness/expert.

But, then my follow-up question would be: If he's so unreputable, why would you use him for consulting?

It's a double edged sword for Braun (at this point).

It is and it isn't.  When they were using him for consulting he was probably in business.  If the guy hadn't tried to basically blackmail A-Rod for a pile of money and wasn't bankrupt I'd say his credibility would be much higher.  In the world of the legal system I was taught that this is why juries decide things, not judges.

and FWIW a lot of criminals were put in jail by rats who had everything to gain from the situation and then years later DNA evidence exonerates them.  Now there is a real double edged sword.

[Pakuni]

It is and it isn't.  When they were using him for consulting he was probably in business.  If the guy hadn't tried to basically blackmail A-Rod for a pile of money and wasn't bankrupt I'd say his credibility would be much higher.  In the world of the legal system I was taught that this is why juries decide things, not judges.

and FWIW a lot of criminals were put in jail by rats who had everything to gain from the situation and then years later DNA evidence exonerates them.  Now there is a real double edged sword.

1. This won't be decided by a jury, or a judge for that matter.
2. Your point about credibility - though fair - would be far more relevant if the MLB case hung on Bosch's testimony. It doesn't. The case is built on medical records, documents, order forms, credit confirmations, invoices, shipping records, phone records, etc. Bosch will merely corroborate those records.

[Hards Alumni]

1. This won't be decided by a jury, or a judge for that matter.
2. Your point about credibility - though fair - would be far more relevant if the MLB case hung on Bosch's testimony. It doesn't. The case is built on medical records, documents, order forms, credit confirmations, invoices, shipping records, phone records, etc. Bosch will merely corroborate those records.

1. I'm aware, it was a generalization of witnesses/rats
2. I've said as much.  There will need to be hard evidence.

[mu03eng]

Whether the MLBPA disagrees here is largely irrelevant. They don't have much real power to prevent the suspensions.
And I think you're mistaken if you believe the PA is going to upset two decades of labor peace for the sake of a small minority of its membership. The bulk of the PA's members don't feel sorry for them.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2013/06/05/mlb-biogenesis-tony-bosch-suspensions-alex-rodriguez-ryan-braun-peers/2393261/

You assume that these 20 are the extent of the membership that are taking PEDs.  These folks are just the members that got caught, the amount actually cheating is very likely much larger.

As far as the strong arming, if you've committed a crime and you cut a deal for a lesser sentence that is totally different than an organization with virtually unlimited financing forcing you to defend a bogus lawsuit at the risk of complete financial ruin.  The first is done within the legal structure of the government, the latter is a private enterprise inflicting itself on a citizen.

Also, the documentation you speak of is A) generated by said corroborating witness and B) "encrypted" meaning there is no 3rd party verification, it is literally Bosch's word that is what the documentation says.

[🏀]

You assume that these 20 are the extent of the membership that are taking PEDs.  These folks are just the members that got caught, the amount actually cheating is very likely much larger.

As far as the strong arming, if you've committed a crime and you cut a deal for a lesser sentence that is totally different than an organization with virtually unlimited financing forcing you to defend a bogus lawsuit at the risk of complete financial ruin.  The first is done within the legal structure of the government, the latter is a private enterprise inflicting itself on a citizen.

Also, the documentation you speak of is A) generated by said corroborating witness and B) "encrypted" meaning there is no 3rd party verification, it is literally Bosch's word that is what the documentation says.

You are trying way to hard at this.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

and FWIW a lot of criminals were put in jail by rats who had everything to gain from the situation and then years later DNA evidence exonerates them.  Now there is a real double edged sword.

I know you are correct, but are we talking 1% of cases? 10%?

Let's face it, the legal system has been incentivizing testimonies for year. It's not a perfect science, but it's a tried and true method to get people talking.

I mean, otherwise, short of Ryan Braun having a needle hanging out of his arm, we're never going to know anything, are we?

With this said, the guys saying Braun did it isn't really enough. Need more of a paper trail.

[mu03eng]

You are trying way to hard at this.

Out of curiosity what do you think I'm trying?