Urlacher Retires

[flash]

1st ballot hall of famer or not?

I think he is.  He was the best player on one of the most dominant defenses of the last decade, 8 time pro bowler, and 2005 Defensive Player of the Year.  His sideline to sideline speed was unmatched at his position, and he led his team to a SuperBowl with Rex Grossman at quarterback. 

thoughts?

[Dr. Blackheart]

No. Only four playoff years, where the Bears where 3-4 in games. Honestly, he was a first ballot player under Jauron who employed a big nose tackle to protect him, but Lovie's defense hid him and exposed him at the same time (against the run), and made him partisan compared to his talents.

[flash]

No. Only four playoff years, where the Bears where 3-4 in games. Honestly, he was a first ballot player under Jauron who employed a big nose tackle to protect him, but Lovie's defense hid him and exposed him at the same time (against the run), and made him partisan compared to his talents.

Are we talking about the same Lovie Smith defensive scheme that won him the Defensive Player of the Year award in 2005? Also, I don't think you can blame the playoff losses on Urlacher, he never had an competent offense to work with.  I know he slowed down a bit in his last 2 years, but in his prime this guy was a destructive force.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Are we talking about the same Lovie Smith defensive scheme that won him the Defensive Player of the Year award in 2005? Also, I don't think you can blame the playoff losses on Urlacher, he never had an competent offense to work with.  I know he slowed down a bit in his last 2 years, but in his prime this guy was a destructive force.

Yes, the bend but don't break defense with so few playoff appearances that hid Urlacher behind it and took him out of attack mode with his great lateral speed.  Not blaming Urlacher for Lovie, but it and the offensive performance also takes him out of first ballot consideration. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Lock for Hall of Fame, probably not first ballot since the murderer will be inducted that year seeing as he retired this year as well.

[flash]

Lock for Hall of Fame, probably not first ballot since the murderer will be inducted that year seeing as he retired this year as well.

I forgot Ray Lewis retired this year too.... definitely hurts Urlacher's chances of first ballot.

[jmayer1]

A lot of very good players didn't get in on the 1st ballot for the pro football HOF, although I'm not sure if there are many people that even know if players got in on the 1st ballot or not. Since the voting rules are a little goofy and vote totals aren't disclosed, it doesn't seem to be nearly as big of a deal/well-know to make it on the first ballot for football as it is for baseball. I don't think Urlacher will make it on the 1st ballot, as there always seems to be a backlog of good players that are waiting to get in (Tim Brown, Will Shields, Steve Atwater currently for example).

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I think hes a lock for the Hall probably first ballot. Only one of four people to have 20 INTs and 40 sacks in a career. The leading tackler in Bears history, more than even names like Butkis and Singletary and I know this doesnt usually influence the hall but he was a freak of nature. A guy his size should not have been as fast as he was.

[keefe]

made him partisan compared to his talents.

I believe it also made him seem pedestrian

[Dr. Blackheart]

I believe it also made him seem pedestrian

My point wasn't he was average as he definitely has HOF numbers, but that he became one of Lovie's systems guys, whom he defended to the core, but whose system held him back from from utilizing his full athletic abilty like a Ray Lewis.  Singletary had less overall athletic talent, still played within a system, but his star power excelled within it.  Dropping back your best pass rusher for many years and quickest left to right athlete 20-30 yards to cover your third option back or tight end, held back his skills.  But, he played his role under the vaunted Lovie Cover 2, and defended its architect who should have utilized his star power within it. IMO, that held him back from being a first ballot entry as he had Lawrence Taylor freakish athletic ability.  A great local star still but not that elite, legendary player.

[GGGG]

My point wasn't he was average as he definitely has HOF numbers, but that he became one of Lovie's systems guys, whom he defended to the core, but whose system held him back from from utilizing his full athletic abilty like a Ray Lewis.  Singletary had less overall athletic talent, still played within a system, but his star power excelled within it.  Dropping back your best pass rusher for many years and quickest left to right athlete 20-30 yards to cover your third option back or tight end, held back his skills.  But, he played his role under the vaunted Lovie Cover 2, and defended its architect who should have utilized his star power within it. IMO, that held him back from being a first ballot entry as he had Lawrence Taylor freakish athletic ability.  A great local star still but not that elite, legendary player.

I by an large will agree with you regarding the Cover 2.

But Brian Urlacher was WAY better than Mike Singletary.  IMO there was no player that benefited more from the talent around him than Singletary.  A great defensive line in front of him, and two very good LBs on either side of him.  He didn't have to do much to have an impact.  Put it this way...Urlacher could have easily replicated what Singletary did and probably done more due to his speed.  Not a chance that Singletary could have done what Urlacher did.

He's not "elite," and he's not first-ballot due to Lewis retiring, but he is a HOFer. 

[jsglow]

One thing that will hold him back is the fact that he never earned a Super Bowl ring.  I contrast that with the fact that he played a defensive position that gets significant recognition typically.  I think he HOF worthy but I like to reserve 'first ballot' consideration for guys that are among the truly historic greats.  Brian is not in that group in my view and I've watched his entire career.

[MerrittsMustache]

No. Only four playoff years, where the Bears where 3-4 in games. Honestly, he was a first ballot player under Jauron who employed a big nose tackle to protect him, but Lovie's defense hid him and exposed him at the same time (against the run), and made him partisan compared to his talents.

Under Jauron: 64 games, 506 tackles (7.9/game), 1.0 FF, 1.3 FR, 5.3 sacks/season, 1.5 INT/season

Under Lovie: 118 games, 847 tackles (7.2/game), 0.8 FF, 1.7 FR, 2.3 sacks/season and 1.8 INT/season

Really the only thing that the Cover-2 did was take away Urlacher as a pass-rusher because it stressed pressure from the front four. He had 5 sacks in '07, 4 sacks '10 but none in '06, '08, '09 (1 game), '11 and '12.

He's likely not going to be a first ballot HOF because of Lewis, but he'll still get in and go down as one of the top 10 MLBs ever.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Sultan, agree with your assessment on Singletary but arguing the system and personnel made Singletary as it kept him in his box where his decision making and skills best fit.  That defense was as dominant as any ever.  And Lovie's system took his big play player away from what he did best.

Merritt, not arguing the stats or the recognition.  Urlacher made a ton of tackles or interceptions downfield on receivers in front of him, not in the backfield or laterally at the line of scrimmage.  Jauron had 320 pound tackles in front of him protecting him....and allowing him to range.  Lovie had 275 pound tackles in front of him, in an age of 300 pound + offensive lineman, allowing the center to go right at him.  Urlacher was a big play guy, and should have been freed up to roam.  Think Clay Matthews.

In that Bears Super Bowl, Rex sucked, but that defense could not make the big stop. Ray Lewis and the Ravens could carry a mediocre offense.  That is first ballot.

[MerrittsMustache]

Sultan, agree with your assessment on Singletary but arguing the system and personnel made Singletary as it kept him in his box where his decision making and skills best fit.  That defense was as dominant as any ever.  And Lovie's system took his big play player away from what he did best.

Merritt, not arguing the stats or the recognition.  Urlacher made a ton of tackles or interceptions downfield on receivers in front of him, not in the backfield or laterally at the line of scrimmage.  Jauron had 320 pound tackles in front of him protecting him....and allowing him to range.  Lovie had 275 pound tackles in front of him, in an age of 300 pound + offensive lineman, allowing the center to go right at him.  Urlacher was a big play guy, and should have been freed up to roam.  Think Clay Matthews.

In that Bears Super Bowl, Rex sucked, but that defense could not make the big stop. Ray Lewis and the Ravens could carry a mediocre offense.  That is first ballot.

The Bears' D was better under Lovie than under Jauron. Urlacher made more big plays under Jauron, but he was an ideal fit at MLB in the Cover-2. Matthews is a great pass-rusher but that's all he does. Urlacher is twice the all-around LB.

I must have missed the part of Super Bowl XXXV when the Ravens turned the ball over 5 times (including a pick-6) against a Peyton Manning-led offense yet Lewis carried them to victory anyway. Do I think Lewis was better than Urlacher? Yes, I do, but if the Bears' offense was even mediocre in the SB, they would have won. The D forced 3 TOs, held the Colts' offense to 22 points, and shut Peyton out for the final 18:16 of the game. No defense is good enough to win a SB if the O turns it over 5 times.

[MU B2002]

es, I do but if the Bears' offense was even mediocre in the SB, they would have won. They D forced 3 TOs, held the Colts' offense to 22 points, and shut Peyton out for the final 18:16 of the game. No defense is good enough to win a SB if the O turns it over 5 times.

And the special teams even contributed a touchdown.

[Dr. Blackheart]

The Bears' D was better under Lovie than under Jauron. Urlacher made more big plays under Jauron, but he was an ideal fit at MLB in the Cover-2. Matthews is a great pass-rusher but that's all he does. Urlacher is twice the all-around LB.

I must have missed the part of Super Bowl XXXV when the Ravens turned the ball over 5 times (including a pick-6) against a Peyton Manning-led offense yet Lewis carried them to victory anyway. Do I think Lewis was better than Urlacher? Yes, I do, but if the Bears' offense was even mediocre in the SB, they would have won. The D forced 3 TOs, held the Colts' offense to 22 points, and shut Peyton out for the final 18:16 of the game. No defense is good enough to win a SB if the O turns it over 5 times.

In a torrential rain storm, the vaunted Bears defense lost time of possession 38:04 to 21:56, even with a pick 6 as one of those 5 turnovers.  The Colts also had three turnovers in the slop. The Bears defensive line had a paltry 11 tackles out of 71 in that game, where the Colts hardly vaunted running game ran for 191 yards, and Manning was 25-38 all in a tropical storm.  The Bears and Urlacher were making tackles downfield all game...and the system was beaten by the coach who helped make it famous, Tony Dungy.  

Lovie's defense was built for the parity NFL.  Bend, be efficient, and eventually the offense will make a mistake.  Overall, it was better than Jauron's. But, Jauron's allowed Urlacher to be dominating, something that Lovie's system never allowed, but the Packer's defense allows Matthews to do or Parcell's defense allowed LT to do:  Letting their stars dominate.

Again, not arguing Urlacher's greatness, just the first ballot.  I have yet to hear why he deserves it, Lewis on the ballot or not.

[MerrittsMustache]

In a torrential rain storm, the vaunted Bears defense lost time of possession 38:04 to 21:56, even with a pick 6 as one of those 5 turnovers.  The Colts also had three turnovers in the slop. The Bears defensive line had a paltry 11 tackles out of 71 in that game, where the Colts hardly vaunted running game ran for 191 yards, and Manning was 25-38 all in a tropical storm.  The Bears and Urlacher were making tackles downfield all game...and the system was beaten by the coach who helped make it famous, Tony Dungy.  

Lovie's defense was built for the parity NFL.  Bend, be efficient, and eventually the offense will make a mistake.  Overall, it was better than Jauron's. But, Jauron's allowed Urlacher to be dominating, something that Lovie's system never allowed, but the Packer's defense allows Matthews to do or Parcell's defense allowed LT to do:  Letting their stars dominate.

Again, not arguing Urlacher's greatness, just the first ballot.  I have yet to hear why he deserves it, Lewis on the ballot or not.

Like you said, the Cover-2 is designed to bend but not break. The Colts got into the redzone 5 times and came away with 1 TD, 3 FGs and a missed FG. That's 15 points (botched the PAT) on 5 redzone trips. That will win a lot of games.

Time of possession? Really? Hester ran back the opening kick for a TD so the Colts got the ball 14 seconds into the game, plus they had the last possession of the first half (after a Grossman fumble) and then the first of the third quarter. That adds up. Plus, the Bears' O didn't have a drive of longer than 2:22. Is that the D's fault?

Anyway, I believe that a player should be a first ballot HOFer if he was one of the best players in the league (on his side of the ball in football) over an extended period of time (7-10 years). So tell me, who was a better defender than Urlacher from 2000-2010?

Ray Lewis. Ed Reed? Warren Sapp? Derrick Brooks?

[Dr. Blackheart]

Not quite lining up the years but HOFers playing (some at tail end) during his time besides your mentions:  Freeney, Strahan, Polamalu, Green, Woodson, Smith.  Repeated winners and long time performers and big time playmakers (my first ballot criteria).

Add in Peppers, Randle, Doleman, Seau to yours and you have Urlacher, IMO.

[real chili 83]

There was some chatter about Urlacher talking to the Vikes.  Did that ever take place before the retirement was announced?

[Spotcheck Billy]

that was him posturing trying to get the Bears to cough up a contract in fear of Urlacher pulling a Favre move in the division

[Hards Alumni]

I'm firmly in the camp that thinks that Brian Urlacher was really good, but not a first ballot HOF player.

[GGGG]

that was him posturing trying to get the Bears to cough up a contract in fear of Urlacher pulling a Favre move in the division

I'm sure he got some offers...but likely of the two-year, near veteran minimum, and "a signing bonus that doesn't embarrass you too much" variety.

[keefe]

My point wasn't he was average as he definitely has HOF numbers, but that he became one of Lovie's systems guys, whom he defended to the core, but whose system held him back from from utilizing his full athletic abilty like a Ray Lewis.  Singletary had less overall athletic talent, still played within a system, but his star power excelled within it.  Dropping back your best pass rusher for many years and quickest left to right athlete 20-30 yards to cover your third option back or tight end, held back his skills.  But, he played his role under the vaunted Lovie Cover 2, and defended its architect who should have utilized his star power within it. IMO, that held him back from being a first ballot entry as he had Lawrence Taylor freakish athletic ability.  A great local star still but not that elite, legendary player.

Singletary, Nitschke, Butkus are a cut above.

[MerrittsMustache]

Not quite lining up the years but HOFers playing (some at tail end) during his time besides your mentions:  Freeney, Strahan, Polamalu, Green, Woodson, Smith.  Repeated winners and long time performers and big time playmakers (my first ballot criteria).

Add in Peppers, Randle, Doleman, Seau to yours and you have Urlacher, IMO.

Interesting list. IMO, Peppers and Randle were superior players to Freeney and Strahan. I've also long been of the belief that Polamalu is vastly overrated. He's a media darling and, sure, he occasionally makes big plays but also gets burned on big plays a lot because he's a gambler.

Darrell Green, Rod Woodson, Bruce Smith. Tough to argue with those.