Bucks moving?

[Groin_pull]

Not really.  25 years old is right around home computers started arriving in most people's homes.  25 years ago you had to have a cell phone the size of a briefcase.  25 years ago the Berlin Wall was just coming down.  25 years ago MTV still played videos.  Most importantly, 25 years ago the Cubs had only not won the World Series 75 years straight!  HOLEY COW!  While it may not seem like that long to the older generations on this board, it was.

And I don't really follow the logic that if we build a stadium that we can't pay for schools, roads, and bridges.  But really I don't think we want to get started on that topic.

You don't see how building a new publicly-financed arena would mean there would be less money for schools, roads, and bridges?

Not sure where you live, but Milwaukee is like the majority of US cities...struggling with rising debt and unable to pay for basic services.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Crazy to think that a 25 year old arena is now an obsolete fossil. Ridiculous. Look at the Georgia Dome in Atlanta....same deal. The sports stadium/arena arms race is out of control.

Meanwhile, our schools, roads, and bridges keep crumbling.....

Groin, some of the arenas built in 1987-88 (BC era) are already gone.  Miami Arena was built around then and was replaced 11 years later.  It has already been demolished.  11 years...what a terrific waste.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

After all those rich people who want to buy a sports franchise "pay therir fair share"  will they have enough left to buy a team?

[Hards Alumni]

You don't see how building a new publicly-financed arena would mean there would be less money for schools, roads, and bridges?

Not sure where you live, but Milwaukee is like the majority of US cities...struggling with rising debt and unable to pay for basic services.

No, because they aren't tied together at all.  If the Miller Park tax is just continued it is a part of the sales tax.  That money doesn't take away from those other problems.  Period.  What does take away from schools etc. is the way our government spends its money.

Basically, if there isn't a sales tax for a new Bucks arena then there isn't magically money available unless you keep the tax and apply it to the things you suggested.

[warriorchick]

Crazy to think that a 25 year old arena is now an obsolete fossil.

Anyone who thinks that the BC is a crappy stadium to play D1 basketball in should watch a game at Rupp Arena.  It's the Allstate Arena, only twice as large, with 1970's-era scoreboards.

Oh, and no booze, either.

[jsglow]

Without the revenue from the Bucks, the BC's days are numbered.  Sure, MU might be able to negotiate a better deal, but that's only temporary as it's going to expedite the BC's demise... MU and the Admirals cannot support the upkeep requirements at the BC on their own.

So you believe that the BC would simply cease to exist?  Really? How 'bout looking one block to the north for a precedent?  In the 1930's the Milwaukee Auditorium was built, it still remains a useful facility albeit in a slightly different format.  In the 1950's the new Milwaukee Arena opened and was the city's premiere facility until the 1980's.  Does it even have a regular tenant since UWM went back to campus.  Funny, I seem to walk by it frequently in the winter.

And don't discount the possibility that MKE might attract an NHL franchise if the Bucks were to leave.  No need to remind me about the Blackhawks' historic position on the topic. But understand that Rocky Wertz isn't his neanderthal father and might even see the benefit of a rival 90 miles to the north.

[Sir Lawrence]

So you believe that the BC would simply cease to exist?  Really? How 'bout looking one block to the north for a precedent?  In the 1930's the Milwaukee Auditorium was built, it still remains a useful facility albeit in a slightly different format.  In the 1950's the new Milwaukee Arena opened and was the city's premiere facility until the 1980's.  Does it even have a regular tenant since UWM went back to campus.  Funny, I seem to walk by it frequently in the winter.

And don't discount the possibility that MKE might attract an NHL franchise if the Bucks were to leave.  No need to remind me about the Blackhawks' historic position on the topic. But understand that Rocky Wertz isn't his neanderthal father and might even see the benefit of a rival 90 miles to the north.

The Auditorium, now the "Milwaukee Theatre" opened in 1909.  In 2001 or 2002 it was renovated.  It is, quite honestly, a white elephant.  A classic example of city politics and cronyism propping up a red ink venue. 

The Arena opened in 1950.  The Bucks and Marquette played there for many years.  It was renovated in the late nineties.  Many, many concerts.  In my opinion, it still has revenue value.

The Bradley Center, opening in 1988, is like much from that particular era.  Bad fashion, bad music, bad beer, bad Marquette basketball, bad design. 

Of the three buildings, if I were King, I'd save the Arena and bulldoze the other two.

[Ari Gold]

What exactly is the opposition to continuing the Miller Park sales tax? Seems like the obvious choice for funding... no one would even feel it

It's an incredibly obvious solution. It's a fraction of a percent a doesn't make the 5 county area a "tax island". Frankly most people have probably forgotten that the miller park tax even exists. The only people up in arms about it probably dont even know how much it is.

However and somewhat unfortunately, the obvious solution isn't the most electable one. And continuing the miller park tax would be a state issue.

I'm glad to see that Hards understands fiscal policy a whole lot better than groin... The miller park tax is a sales tax for MP not taking money away from things...

[Spotcheck Billy]

I thought there was previously talk about joining with the convention board and sharing their revenue streams.

[Benny B]

So you believe that the BC would simply cease to exist?  Really? How 'bout looking one block to the north for a precedent?  In the 1930's the Milwaukee Auditorium was built, it still remains a useful facility albeit in a slightly different format.  In the 1950's the new Milwaukee Arena opened and was the city's premiere facility until the 1980's.  Does it even have a regular tenant since UWM went back to campus.  Funny, I seem to walk by it frequently in the winter.

And don't discount the possibility that MKE might attract an NHL franchise if the Bucks were to leave.  No need to remind me about the Blackhawks' historic position on the topic. But understand that Rocky Wertz isn't his neanderthal father and might even see the benefit of a rival 90 miles to the north.

(One block to the south.)

I haven't seen the Auditorium's or Arena's finances, but I would have to assume that both are being subsidized by state or local gov't.  Sure, the Arena usefulness, but not for high-major D-I or NBA basketball.  Even if the city/state could tolerate (and minimally maintain) two old, underutilized arenas 100 feet apart from each other, MU isn't going to want to play at the BC if it goes the way of the Arena.  Neither will an NHL team (screw you Bettman).

Will the BC cease to exist if the Bucks leave?  No... I think the Arena gets the ol' Vegas "land-renewal" first.  But again, without a major capital infusion it won't be long before the BC's marquee is hawking the Shrine Circus, MATC graduation, semi-pro wrestling, a touring tribute to REO Speedwagon, and - if there's enough letters left - REO Speedwagon.

[Ari Gold]

I thought there was previously talk about joining with the convention board and sharing their revenue streams.

The Wisconsin Center District. which receives no property tax money or Federal, State or local subsidies. They do get money from hotel and car rentals however...

And don't discount the possibility that MKE might attract an NHL franchise if the Bucks were to leave.  No need to remind me about the Blackhawks' historic position on the topic. But understand that Rocky Wertz isn't his neanderthal father and might even see the benefit of a rival 90 miles to the north.

Given that Quebec, Portland and Kansas City are all ahead of Milwaukee in that queue, I'd (unfortunately) discount that possibility

[jsglow]

(One block to the south.)

I haven't seen the Auditorium's or Arena's finances, but I would have to assume that both are being subsidized by state or local gov't.  Sure, the Arena usefulness, but not for high-major D-I or NBA basketball.  Even if the city/state could tolerate (and minimally maintain) two old, underutilized arenas 100 feet apart from each other, MU isn't going to want to play at the BC if it goes the way of the Arena.  Neither will an NHL team (screw you Bettman).

Will the BC cease to exist if the Bucks leave?  No... I think the Arena gets the ol' Vegas "land-renewal" first.  But again, without a major capital infusion it won't be long before the BC's marquee is hawking the Shrine Circus, MATC graduation, semi-pro wrestling, a touring tribute to REO Speedwagon, and - if there's enough letters left - REO Speedwagon.

Sorry about my directional fopa!  Of course it's south.    I only lived in Brewcity for 22 years.  Thanks for the fix.


I agree with you about the 'downward mobility' of the BC post Bucks.  But one does need to understand that Milwaukee has limited financial resources and simply might not be an NBA city long term.  IF that becomes the case, the BC would represent one of the nicer facilities nationwide that doesn't house an NBA franchise and would certainly tap public financial support for operations, as necessary.  Warriorchick pointed to Rupp Arena.  I promise you, that place is a giant dump in a crappy town but it serves an important purpose.  At the other end of the scale (and state, for that matter), let's look at the KFC Yum Center.  They've got Louisville basketball (fantastic) and nothing else but the circus and REO Speedwagon going for them.  That's a recipe for bankruptcy or the need for huge subsidies from the public to pay off the construction bonds.

[PBRme]

There are people in Milwaukee...or at least SE Wisconsin...that are wealthier than both of them.  Herb Kohler is probably wealthier than both of them combined.  

The problem is that many people simply don't want to invest in a sports franchise.  

Johnsons, Kohler, The former Kellogg, Dianne Hendricks, Comer,

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Riddle me this:

Right now which franchise is more valuable, the Milwaukee Bucks or the Milwaukee Brewers?  Not "valuable to the community" but "valuable to purchase."

I don't know if this answers your question, but Forbes has the Bucks listed as worth $258M and the Brewers at $376M


http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/32/basketball-valuations-11_Milwaukee-Bucks_325937.html

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/33/baseball-valuations-11_Milwaukee-Brewers_337147.html

[Sir Lawrence]

I don't know if this answers your question, but Forbes has the Bucks listed as worth $258M and the Brewers at $376M


http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/32/basketball-valuations-11_Milwaukee-Bucks_325937.html

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/33/baseball-valuations-11_Milwaukee-Brewers_337147.html

It does and doesn't.  Those sources are dated, and the reason I asked is that I always assumed the Brewers were worth more than the Bucks, but I'm not certain that is true.  TV dollars, not surprisingly, are driving my thinking here. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

This is so incredibly wrong I don't know where to start.  There are a TON of wealthy people lined up to buy NBA franchises.  Recently, they have been one of the best investments for the super rich.  Look no further than the Charlotte Bobcats recent history.

A ton of people want to own an NBA franchise with a tax-payer purchased stadium that has tons of revenue streams.

The fundamental problem is that the NBA business model is broken for most markets. Owners cannot afford to pay for their own building, and they are demanding the tax payers fund it so the team can be profitable. Without the tax payer, the teams aren't sustainable. That's a bad business model.

If you can't pay for the infrastructure your business needs, then your business model sucks, and it's time to go out of business.

If only 10 cities can really afford NBA teams, then it should be a 10 team league. If those teams want to help subsidize another 20 teams, then so be it.

[GGGG]

Eh...

If a city wants to build an arena to attract an NBA team, it is their right to do so.

[Benny B]

Sorry about my directional fopa!  Of course it's south.    I only lived in Brewcity for 22 years.  Thanks for the fix.


I agree with you about the 'downward mobility' of the BC post Bucks.  But one does need to understand that Milwaukee has limited financial resources and simply might not be an NBA city long term.  IF that becomes the case, the BC would represent one of the nicer facilities nationwide that doesn't house an NBA franchise and would certainly tap public financial support for operations, as necessary.  Warriorchick pointed to Rupp Arena.  I promise you, that place is a giant dump in a crappy town but it serves an important purpose.  At the other end of the scale (and state, for that matter), let's look at the KFC Yum Center.  They've got Louisville basketball (fantastic) and nothing else but the circus and REO Speedwagon going for them.  That's a recipe for bankruptcy or the need for huge subsidies from the public to pay off the construction bonds.

Rupp Arena is a dump because it can be.  Wrigley Field could collapse at any moment, but that doesn't prevent over 30k fans from showing up on game day.  The fan base is so large that the venue's condition has no material relevance to popularity.  Heck... the Ricketts are going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars "upgrading Wrigley" very soon, but only a small portion of that is actually going into the existing stadium.

My point is that model of venue in major sports cannot be universally duplicated.  Even with the same success that the Brewers have experienced over the past 5 years, if they were still playing in County Stadium, they wouldn't be drawing 2M fans, let alone the nearly 3M they have been drawing the past few seasons.

Let's look about halfway between the BC and Rupp... Adolph was still coaching high school basketball when Hinkle opened.  If MSG is the Mecca of basketball, then there must be 40 virgins in Hinkle, yet Butler has had to put a significant amount of money into keeping Hinkle relevant... $16M was the latest figure (originally $25M, but scaled back a year later), of which $12M has been raised.  I thought I once heard the cost to renovate the BC was going to be in excess of $70M.

I can't see anyone putting even $7M into the BC if the Bucks left, and I can't see MU wanting to play in a BC on life-support 10-15 years from now.  Heck, $70M is more than what it cost to build the Sears Centre (and that's Chicago construction prices) - MU doesn't need to build a $250M YUM or Knight monstrosity.

The question is would MU want to raise/spend the $60-80M necessary to build an on-campus arena?  The answer to that - right now - is most definitely a "no."  However, I personally think that "no" becomes an unequivocal "yes" in less than a decade if the Bucks leave and the BC isn't kept up to today's, let alone tomorrow's, standards.

[Hards Alumni]

A ton of people want to own an NBA franchise with a tax-payer purchased stadium that has tons of revenue streams.

The fundamental problem is that the NBA business model is broken for most markets. Owners cannot afford to pay for their own building, and they are demanding the tax payers fund it so the team can be profitable. Without the tax payer, the teams aren't sustain't I dimble. That's a bad business model.

If you can't pay for the infrastructure your business needs, then your business model sucks, and it's time to go out of business.

If only 10 cities can really afford NBA teams, then it should be a 10 team league. If those teams want to help subsidize another 20 teams, then so be it.

Sigh.  Yes, lets contract all professional sports teams that need new stadiums, but want city money to pay for them.  Lets be realistic.

[TallTitan34]

Someone explain to me how dismantling an arena, shipping it across the entire Atlantic and half the US, then reassembling it after modifing it for cold Milwaukee winters is cheaper than building a new arena.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Sigh.  Yes, lets contract all professional sports teams that need new stadiums, but want city money to pay for them.  Lets be realistic.

I know I sound like some sort of libertarian nutjob (I'm not), but what I wrote is true.

To say that their is a laundry list of people waiting to buy NBA teams isn't exactly accurate. There is a laundry list of people waiting to buy publicly subsidized NBA franchises.

The NBA business model is BAD for the majority of franchises. It's not sustainable without public funding.

I like basketball, and I'm ok with tax funded initiatives. However, I just don't see a new arena as a good investment for the city, and is pretty much just a hand out to a billionaire owner.

[Coleman]

Someone explain to me how dismantling an arena, shipping it across the entire Atlantic and half the US, then reassembling it after modifing it for cold Milwaukee winters is cheaper than building a new arena.

Its made out of PVC (no joke)

That they are even considering it is a testament to how dumb Wisconsinites are being about this.

[GGGG]

This is so incredibly wrong I don't know where to start.  There are a TON of wealthy people lined up to buy NBA franchises.  Recently, they have been one of the best investments for the super rich.  Look no further than the Charlotte Bobcats recent history.

I meant local Wisconsinites who are wealthy enough to own one.

[jsglow]

Heck, $70M is more than what it cost to build the Sears Centre (and that's Chicago construction prices) - MU doesn't need to build a $250M YUM or Knight monstrosity.

The question is would MU want to raise/spend the $60-80M necessary to build an on-campus arena?  The answer to that - right now - is most definitely a "no."  However, I personally think that "no" becomes an unequivocal "yes" in less than a decade if the Bucks leave and the BC isn't kept up to today's, let alone tomorrow's, standards.

Assuming proper maintenance and reasonable modernization of the BC along the lines of the money spent by BMO Harris in the last year, I believe that a Marquette version of the Sears Center is not a superior alternative for the forseeable future (I'll use my lifetime and I'm in my 50s).  I'll point to DePaul.  They've been unable to pull the trigger on a lousy situation for decades.  And no Marquette fan reasonably believes our current arena situation is 'lousy'.  And not to add fuel to the fire but let's envision the 1,000 page thread right here on Scoop lamenting 'No Beer Sales Anymore!!!???'

That said, I've enjoyed our thoughtful and well reasoned exchange.  Have a great weekend Benny.

[Benny B]

Assuming proper maintenance and reasonable modernization of the BC along the lines of the money spent by BMO Harris in the last year, I believe that a Marquette version of the Sears Center is not a superior alternative for the forseeable future (I'll use my lifetime and I'm in my 50s).  I'll point to DePaul.  They've been unable to pull the trigger on a lousy situation for decades.  And no Marquette fan reasonably believes our current arena situation is 'lousy'.  And not to add fuel to the fire but let's envision the 1,000 page thread right here on Scoop lamenting 'No Beer Sales Anymore!!!???'

That said, I've enjoyed our thoughtful and well reasoned exchange.  Have a great weekend Benny.

Well... it was a well-reasoned exchange until you brought up DePaul.