Vote: Who Had A Better First Five Years?

[Tugg Speedman]

As noted in the Cinco de Buzz thread, today is Buzz's five year anniversary with MU.

We all know what Buzz did the last five years.  And, we all know what Al did from 1970 to 1977.

But here is what Al did his first five years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_McGuire

1964–1965    Marquette    8–18    
1965–1966    Marquette    14–12    
1966–1967    Marquette    21–9    NIT Runner-up
1967–1968    Marquette    23–6    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
1968–1969    Marquette    24–5    NCAA Elite Eight

After his fifth year, Al did this

1969–1970    Marquette    26–3    NIT Champions
1970–1971    Marquette    28–1    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
1971–1972    Marquette    25–4    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
1972–1973    Marquette    25–4    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
1973–1974    Marquette    26–5    NCAA Runner-up
1974–1975    Marquette    23–4    NCAA Round of 32
1975–1976    Marquette    27–2    NCAA Elite Eight
1976–1977    Marquette    25–7    NCAA Champions

--------------------------

Interesting that years 4 and 5 for Al and Buzz are remarkably similar.

That said, I would vote Buzz because years 1 to 3 were much better than Al's year's 1 to 3.

[The Lens]

Al...Buzz walked into a NCAA program.  Now granted it was a 1st weekend program but it was still a NCAA program.

[sarcastro]

Marquette University 2013-14 NIT CHAMPS!!!

[buckchuckler]

Marquette University 2013-14 NIT CHAMPS!!!

Isn't that the year (69/70) that Al essentially spurned the NCAA because MU got screwed on their seeding? 

[Tugg Speedman]

Isn't that the year (69/70) that Al essentially spurned the NCAA because MU got screwed on their seeding? 

Yes ... in 1970 the NIT and the NCAA were a LOT closer in prestige than they are now.  That is why we voluntarily passed on the NCAA for the NIT.

Different world today.

[Tums Festival]

Isn't that the year (69/70) that Al essentially spurned the NCAA because MU got screwed on their seeding? 

We were placed in the Midwest rather than the Mideast region which meant we would've played much further away from home. I believe there's a rule now stating that a team cannot turn down a NCAA tourney invite in favor of the NIT, although not sure why anyone would nowadays.

[MU82]

Al...Buzz walked into a NCAA program.  Now granted it was a 1st weekend program but it was still a NCAA program.

Agree 100%

It's apples and oranges comparing where the program was in 1964 and where the program was when Buzz took over.

Al walked into a situation more similar to the one Crean walked into at Indiana.

Al completely turning it around in three years -- being the NIT runner-up in '67 is akin to being a Sweet 16 team today -- was an incredible accomplishment.

[Galway Eagle]

Agree 100%

It's apples and oranges comparing where the program was in 1964 and where the program was when Buzz took over.

Al walked into a situation more similar to the one Crean walked into at Indiana.

Al completely turning it around in three years -- being the NIT runner-up in '67 is akin to being a Sweet 16 team today -- was an incredible accomplishment.

I wouldn't say it's akin to being a sweet 16 team today, closer to being round of 32 if you ask me. 

[keefe]

Al. He went from 0 to 180 like an F 16. Buzz jumped into a fast moving jet and made it fly faster.

[sailwi]

Al also turned down the NCAA bid because ND got our spot in the Mideast IIRC.

[Goose]

Al and not even close. Different time and different challenges. Al was building a program and a brand.

[Les Nessman]

Can someone give me a quick synopsis of what MU basketball was like before Al? I've been an MU fan for about 14 years now and never really hear about, or attempted to look up, any info regarding the program prior to Al. were we good, bad, mediocre?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Where did they come from, what did they inherit...that is key to this, in my opinion.

EDIT: 22 to 25 teams got to the NCAA tournament back then, today 68
Almost no national tv back then, today you can't escape it
No conference back then, Big East today
Bad facilities even by 1960's standards back then, great facilities today
15 scholarships back then, 12 today....more talent distributed today than ever before (UNC, KU, etc can't horde it like they used to)
Taking over a NCAA tournament team from the previous 3 years and only 5 years removed from Final Four vs taking over a team that had only three NCAAs appearances in our history (two in the 1950's)


Context is important

To me, it's Al McGuire and a silly discussion even to be voted on.  That's not a dig on Buzz, he just had a lot more to work with, a lot lot lot more room for error, better facilities, more talent to work with, more chances of success (tournament expansion, etc).

[MURFC]

Where did they come from, what did they inherit...that is key to this, in my opinion.

32 teams got to the NCAA tournament back then, today 68
Almost no national tv back then, today you can't escape it
No conference back then, Big East today
Bad facilities even by 1960's standards back then, great facilities today
15 scholarships back then, 12 today....more talent distributed today than ever before (UNC, KU, etc can't horde it like they used to)
Taking over a NCAA tournament team from the previous 3 years and only 5 years removed from Final Four vs taking over a team that had only three NCAAs appearances in our history (two in the 1950's)


Context is important

To me, it's Al McGuire and a silly discussion even to be voted on.  That's not a dig on Buzz, he just had a lot more to work with, a lot lot lot more room for error, better facilities, more talent to work with, more chances of success (tournament expansion, etc).

Good points.  Anyone know what the competitive landscape was back then?  Fair to assume far fewer schools were trying to compete at the upper levels of NCAA?  Just wondering how that impacted McGuire and his ability to build the program.  Seems like (and i really dont know, only speculating) the environment today is far more challenging.

[CAGASS24]

Sidebar discussion on al:  was watching the al McGuire tapes the other day and man was he a strange motivator.  Total you guys suck, prove me otherwise psychology. 

[Sir Lawrence]

Total you guys suck, prove me otherwise psychology. 

Hmmmm.  Where have I heard that recently? 

"We aren't very good."

Says the guy whose team made the Elite8.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Good points.  Anyone know what the competitive landscape was back then?  Fair to assume far fewer schools were trying to compete at the upper levels of NCAA?  Just wondering how that impacted McGuire and his ability to build the program.  Seems like (and i really dont know, only speculating) the environment today is far more challenging.

Really hard question to answer.  So difficult to compare eras, then you bring in things like freshmen eligibility, outlawing the slam dunk, 3 point line exists now, no shot clock then, fewer DI teams but fewer post season opportunities as well.  Back then, there was typically one college basketball games on tv per week, if you were lucky.  Only conference champions made the NCAA tournament so we examples where USC was ranked #2 in the country but didn't make the NCAAs because UCLA was #1 and won the Pac Eight conference...same with Maryland one year.  So I don't know if it is more challenging now, less challenging, hard to figure with so many variables, so many different opportunities today. 

[bilsu]

I voted Buzz, but Al started with nothing while Buzz started with a senior laden team.

[keefe]

USC was ranked #2 in the country but didn't make the NCAAs because UCLA was #1 

That was that Bob Boyd team with Westphal. I actually watched that game! 1971...seems like yesterday.

[Dawson Rental]

More votes for Buzz than Al.  However, if you limited voting to fans who were fans through both eras, I think the results would flip flop.

[ChicosBailBonds]

More votes for Buzz than Al.  However, if you limited voting to fans who were fans through both eras, I think the results would flip flop.

People's memories are awfully thin, or they're so young they have no memories at all. 

[MUMonster03]

Context is important

To me, it's Al McGuire and a silly discussion even to be voted on.  That's not a dig on Buzz, he just had a lot more to work with, a lot lot lot more room for error, better facilities, more talent to work with, more chances of success (tournament expansion, etc).

Agree with you on everything but the room for error. Al was building a program and there were not high expectations so he was going to be given time to build. If Buzz had gone to the NIT in his first 3 years people would have been calling for his head, especially with the senior leadership he was left with his first season.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Agree with you on everything but the room for error. Al was building a program and there were not high expectations so he was going to be given time to build. If Buzz had gone to the NIT in his first 3 years people would have been calling for his head, especially with the senior leadership he was left with his first season.

When I say room for error, I mean a lot easier to get into the NCAA tournament.   You can finish 9th in the Big East and make the NCAA tournament.  In Al's era, you finished 2nd and you didn't get an invite....granted we were an independent, but my point is that being really good back then didn't mean you were invited.  Today, there is a ton of room for error and you still get invited.

[MUMonster03]

When I say room for error, I mean a lot easier to get into the NCAA tournament.   You can finish 9th in the Big East and make the NCAA tournament.  In Al's era, you finished 2nd and you didn't get an invite....granted we were an independent, but my point is that being really good back then didn't mean you were invited.  Today, there is a ton of room for error and you still get invited.

Have to agree with you on that then as well. 2011 would have been a NIT year at best back in the day but instead it was the beginning of the sweet 16's!

[ChicosBailBonds]

Have to agree with you on that then as well. 2011 would have been a NIT year at best back in the day but instead it was the beginning of the sweet 16's!

Based on some experts in 2011, they had us as one of the last teams in but the tournament had just expanded that year.