TWITTA TRACKKKAAAA Jeff Goodman throwing bombs

[ChicosBailBonds]

Except I'm not using "mine", I'm using "the" (consensus, that is).

The only "version" of the RSCI that counts IS the final one. That is his CONSENSUS rating by DEFINITION (the r for ratings, s for service, c for CONSENSUS and i for index). So. CONSENSUS... 4 star, indeed. That's what he was. Saying he wasn't is a lie.

Erik Williams, Lakeem Jackson, Dalton Pepper and all the other red herrings you want to bring up are meaningless to the discussion. So is what you claim Sampson said about him, though for me to believe he actually said that I'd like you to cite the publication that quoted him - otherwise I'll chalk it up to more Hoosier folklore.

Not meaningless, shows the flaws in those rankings. 

Sampson did say it.  Been reported many times, most recently  Feb 26th, IU vs Michigan game, it was stated during the game by Dan Dakich, former IU coach who was on Sampson's staff and involved in recruiting.  I assume you'll want video or audio evidence, that could be arranged but in the meantime several folks also commented on it, though they paraphrased.

https://twitter.com/davebiddle/status/306567348066844672
https://twitter.com/jjonas912/status/277137908895461376

http://www.insidethehall.com/2012/12/13/glass-program-has-returned-to-1980s-form/

Also reported in the Indy Star

http://cmsstage.indystar.com/article/20121207/SPORTS0601/212090308/The-shooter-Work-ethic-paves-road-IU-s-Hulls?nclick_check=1

Chicago Sun Times
http://posttrib.suntimes.com/sports/colleges/18657721-419/last-hurrah-for-elston-hulls-watford.html

Finally, if it was consensus that he was a 4 star player then where is the consensus?  You have 4 sites saying he wasn't, you have 4 sites saying he was, you have another one that doesn't give out stars.  Again, where is the consensus?

[ChicosBailBonds]

With all due respect, follow the man's argument.  He was talking value add, not recruiting rankings.

And I was saying talent...there are more TALENTED players on the roster up and down on many teams than IU.  That is what I've been saying since day one.  You guys want to make it out like this is the Miami Heat.  Please, there are at least 5 to 8 teams in DI this year alone with more talent than that team.  Doesn't make them better, in fact clearly there are teams with more talent that aren't playing as well, but I'm responding to the talent argument.  I keep hearing how loaded with talent they are.  Sure, but compared to what?  Compared to Duke?  No way.  Compared to some other teams...no way.

[Silkk the Shaka]

And I was saying talent...there are more TALENTED players on the roster up and down on many teams than IU.  That is what I've been saying since day one.  You guys want to make it out like this is the Miami Heat.  Please, there are at least 5 to 8 teams in DI this year alone with more talent than that team.  Doesn't make them better, in fact clearly there are teams with more talent that aren't playing as well, but I'm responding to the talent argument.  I keep hearing how loaded with talent they are.  Sure, but compared to what?  Compared to Duke?  No way.  Compared to some other teams...no way.

So are you saying "The Movement" was merely a bowel movement?

[The Equalizer]

Finally, if it was consensus that he was a 4 star player then where is the consensus?  You have 4 sites saying he wasn't, you have 4 sites saying he was, you have another one that doesn't give out stars.  Again, where is the consensus?

+1

Typical argument from Lenny--throwing out terms like "consensus" and "outlier" as if he actually knew what the words meant.

When half the services didn't list Hulls as a 4-star then they weren't "outliers" nor was Hulls "consensus" 4-star.

[Lennys Tap]

+1

Typical argument from Lenny--throwing out terms like "consensus" and "outlier" as if he actually knew what the words meant.

When half the services didn't list Hulls as a 4-star then they weren't "outliers" nor was Hulls "consensus" 4-star.

The Recruiting Service CONSENSUS Index (RSCI) uses seven (7) services to compile their CONSENSUS rankings. In the final rankings of 2009, Jordan Hulls had a CONSENSUS ranking of 74. Five of the seven services they use had Hulls in the top 100 (4 star), ranking him 50, 55, 59, 86 and 88. Maybe in Mom's basement, dressed up to fight bad guys as the Equalizer, that's not a consensus. Everywhere else it is.

[Dr. Blackheart]

So Mr. Indiana Basketball 2009 and and the Indiana Gatorade Player of the Year, in the best high school basketball state in the country, is not a blue chipper?  Nonsense...why else did Crean move?  Jordy was the best player out of Indiana Elite that year.

[The Equalizer]

The Recruiting Service CONSENSUS Index (RSCI) uses seven (7) services to compile their CONSENSUS rankings. In the final rankings of 2009, Jordan Hulls had a CONSENSUS ranking of 74. Five of the seven services they use had Hulls in the top 100 (4 star), ranking him 50, 55, 59, 86 and 88. Maybe in Mom's basement, dressed up to fight bad guys as the Equalizer, that's not a consensus. Everywhere else it is.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consensus
a : general agreement : unanimity

So even if we accept your definition of top 100 = 4-star, 5 of 7 is not unanimity. By definition, he was not a consensus 4-star.  Not even in your mom's basement.

[Silkk the Shaka]

I'm shocked this isn't locked yet.

[Lennys Tap]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consensus
a : general agreement : unanimity

So even if we accept your definition of top 100 = 4-star, 5 of 7 is not unanimity. By definition, he was not a consensus 4-star.  Not even in your mom's basement.

You cited one of the first (number 1) meanings of consensus and, not surprisingly, omitted the other.

Consensus (according to Webster)

1 a:a general agreement; unanimity

   b:the judgement made by MOST (my caps) of those concerned


So, a consensus can be unanimous (never said it couldn't be), but it doesn't have to be. And you saying that the Recruiting Service Consensus Index isn't a consensus because it isn't unanimous is absolutely, positively wrong.

I might also suggest you google consensus and unanimity. Lots of interesting material, most of it devoted to how in today's lexicon they're not the same. Enjoy.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So Mr. Indiana Basketball 2009 and and the Indiana Gatorade Player of the Year, in the best high school basketball state in the country, is not a blue chipper?  Nonsense...why else did Crean move?  Jordy was the best player out of Indiana Elite that year.

I don't do the ratings, ask the professional rating services that didn't give him a 4 star...like rivals, etc.

Being Mr. Basketball doesn't guarantee anything either.  Bart Miller, Mr. Basketball in basketball crazed state of Kentucky comes to mind.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The Recruiting Service CONSENSUS Index (RSCI) uses seven (7) services to compile their CONSENSUS rankings. In the final rankings of 2009, Jordan Hulls had a CONSENSUS ranking of 74. Five of the seven services they use had Hulls in the top 100 (4 star), ranking him 50, 55, 59, 86 and 88. Maybe in Mom's basement, dressed up to fight bad guys as the Equalizer, that's not a consensus. Everywhere else it is.

Where does it say a top 100 ranking equals 4 stars?  You are making that up.  In some of those ratings he got top 100 but did not get 4 stars, just as some other guys further down the list.  Top 100 does not automatically mean 4 stars.  Just look at the RSCI with some of the kids and there are plenty that are 3 star yet "top 100".

Again, some services said 4 stars, some did not.   What I find interesting is if you point this FACT out, you are called out, even though it is a fact.  Weird.  No outliers. 

[Henry Sugar]

And I was saying talent...there are more TALENTED players on the roster up and down on many teams than IU.  That is what I've been saying since day one.  You guys want to make it out like this is the Miami Heat.  Please, there are at least 5 to 8 teams in DI this year alone with more talent than that team.  Doesn't make them better, in fact clearly there are teams with more talent that aren't playing as well, but I'm responding to the talent argument.  I keep hearing how loaded with talent they are.  Sure, but compared to what?  Compared to Duke?  No way.  Compared to some other teams...no way.

You are defining talent differently than I am. Your approach is by looking at recruiting rankings. We all know recruit rankings are imperfect and can cite dozens of examples easily. For example, Dwyane Wade, Oladapio, Erik Williams, etc.

My definition of talent is by looking at the production of the players in the league this year.

I think your definition of talent is incorrect and therefore your argument that Indiana isn't as talented as other teams is invalid. Indiana is the most talented team in the tournament based on how their players performed this year.

And frankly, I'm trying to be reasonable, but screw it. If they lose it's because Crean is an asshat and terrible coach person.

[Lennys Tap]

Being Mr. Basketball doesn't guarantee anything either.  Bart Miller, Mr. Basketball in basketball crazed state of Kentucky comes to mind.

Last 7 Indiana Mr Basketball winners:

Gary Harris
Cody Zeller
DeShaun Thomas
Jordon Hulls
Tyler Zeller
Eric Gordon
Greg Oden

Last 7 Kentucky Mr Basketball winners:

Nathan Dieudonne
Anthony Hickey
Elisha Justice
Jon Hood
Darius Miller
Steffphon Pettigrew
Walt Allen

Comparing Indiana Mr Basketballers with those from Kentucky is basketball brain dead.

[4everwarriors]

Stockton was married to Lesley Visser?  When did he go blind?

Bet you'd rather frequent the neighborhood glory hole, right boss?

[ChicosBailBonds]

You are defining talent differently than I am. Your approach is by looking at recruiting rankings. We all know recruit rankings are imperfect and can cite dozens of examples easily. For example, Dwyane Wade, Oladapio, Erik Williams, etc.

My definition of talent is by looking at the production of the players in the league this year.

I think your definition of talent is incorrect and therefore your argument that Indiana isn't as talented as other teams is invalid. Indiana is the most talented team in the tournament based on how their players performed this year.

And frankly, I'm trying to be reasonable, but screw it. If they lose it's because Crean is an asshat and terrible coach person.

Totally understand your point of view, but let's look at it another way.  I assume you would say talented kids go on to the pros or are NBA prospects...correct? I mean, they don't take untalented kids to the NBA.

IU is projected to have three NBA players on their team for this year....that's not even the most in their own bracket (tied for most) and teams in other brackets project to have more.  Doesn't that mean they have more talent?  So back to my original point, IU is talented, they are not more talented than other teams and, in fact, they are less talented than a number of teams.  Doesn't mean they aren't talented, never said that.  I said there are teams that have more talent than them...whether it is high school ratings, NBA prospects, or using the eyeball test.  Let's not confuse TEAM with individual talent.  IU plays really well as a team most of the time, but position by position they are not the most talented which is what I said from the very beginning.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Comparing Indiana Mr Basketballers with those from Kentucky is basketball brain dead.

Brain dead is saying a top 100 player is automatically a 4 star player and making definitions up to suit you, when there are examples up and down the RSCI that show that is not the case.

My point with Mr. Basketball is that it doesn't always mean anything.  In the last 7 years, yup, some really good players there.  In some years, not so great.  When my graduate school team ran marketing for the Indiana-Kentucky High School All-Star game, Mr. Indiana went to Miami of Ohio. if I recall.  Some years its going to mean something, and some years it won't.  I remember the year after it was a kid named Kevin Ault that went to Missouri State and another kid went to Southern.  Most years, Indiana High School hoops puts out good Mr. Basketball, but not always.

[Lennys Tap]

Totally understand your point of view, but let's look at it another way.  I assume you would say talented kids go on to the pros or are NBA prospects...correct? I mean, they don't take untalented kids to the NBA.

Indiana has two (2) players projected to be lottery picks in this year's draft. Those two players have more than 160 games combined college basketball experience under their belts. Nobody else has that.

[Lennys Tap]

My point with Mr. Basketball is that it doesn't always mean anything.  In the last 7 years, yup, some really good players there.  In some years, not so great.  When my graduate school team ran marketing for the Indiana-Kentucky High School All-Star game, Mr. Indiana went to Miami of Ohio. if I recall.  Some years its going to mean something, and some years it won't.  I remember the year after it was a kid named Kevin Ault that went to Missouri State and another kid went to Southern.  Most years, Indiana High School hoops puts out good Mr. Basketball, but not always.

The point remains that comparing Mr Basketball Indiana to Mr Basketball Kentucky is like comparing Mr Basketball Illinois to Mr Basketball Idaho. Brain dead.

But enough of this. We've (Marquette) got a basketball game to win today!