NEW C7/Big East info

[Eight Legger]

Totally understand why you all would want Creighton over us, and it makes sense. I was just pointing out that we have a strong basketball history in the recent past and more distant past. Everyone knows us as the "giant killers" and the only team to win games as a 12, 13, 14 and 15 seed in the NCAAs. I don't know if that's really relevant to the present-day considerations, though, just as how many times Creighton went to the tourney in the 1960s or 1970s probably isn't that relevant.

As far as other sports, we won the football I-AA national championship in 2008 and built a new on-campus a couple years ago, but we have no thoughts of going FBS at all. Tim Hightower and Paris Lenon are Spider football alumni.

We've had a nice baseball history and were three innings away from a College World Series appearance in the early 2000s. Sean Casey, Brian Jordan and Tim Stauffer are Spider baseball alumni. The baseball program took a hit when we went from the CAA to the A-10 (a worse baseball league).

We made the controversial decision to cut men's soccer and men's track to bump our men's lacrosse team up to D1 starting next year, which some of us now feel may have been a sign of positioning ourselves better for this C7 invite. Our swimming and diving teams win the A-10 pretty much every year, and historically overall we have won or finished in the top-3 of the A-10 cumulative standings for all men's and women's sports.

[LastWarrior]

We made the controversial decision to cut men's soccer and men's track to bump our men's lacrosse team up to D1 starting next year, which some of us now feel may have been a sign of positioning ourselves better for this C7 invite.

You cut men's soccer?!?!  IMO, that's probably the 2nd best men's sport of the new conference.

[jsglow]

Interesting stuff 8.  As I read your post it would seem to me that many decisions made by Richmond would make it less likely to be a C7 fit.  No soccer, yes baseball, yes scholly (I think) football.  Do you have women's volleyball?

[4everwarriors]

So, what does MU do with their "all in" approach to lacrosse in the new conference?

[Norm]

You cut men's soccer?!?!  IMO, that's probably the 2nd best men's sport of the new conference.

Especially when you consider that Georgetown was runner up, Creighton made the Final four, and Marquette, St. John's, Xavier, St. Louis and VCU all made the NCAA men's soccer tournament.

[ChicosBailBonds]

From today's Sports Business Daily....some of this already reported.  News of the Big 12 as well.



The group of schools known as the Catholic 7 will "initially focus on a 10 team conference, which would mean invitations to Butler and Xavier of the Atlantic 10," according to sources cited by Mark Blaudschun of AJERSEYGUY.com. An internal "tug of war over the 10th team is being waged with Marquette leading a charge to include Creighton, while Georgetown and the Eastern Catholic schools are focusing on Richmond." The conference "would start as early as" the '14-15 season, as the "push to begin next season is losing power." Fox Sports, which has "tendered a tentative offer" of $40M per year for Catholic 7 broadcast rights, has "indicated it would like to see 12 teams." But the "initial thinking among the Catholic 7 is to go with 10 schools, which would allow" for a double round robin schedule of 18 conference games. Such an arrangement also would "allow each school to include high profile -- and television friendly -- non conference games." Meanwhile, the Catholic 7 may be "closing on a commissioner to guide them through all of these issues." Blaudschun wrote "don't be surprised" if the Catholic 7 school presidents pursue West Coast Conference Commissioner Jamie Zainovich (AJERSEYGUY.com, 2/21). Georgetown President Jack DeGioia acknowledged that the new conference "likely will consist of 12 members though may expand to 10 initially." Sources said that the "three to five new members need not be Catholic schools." The sources added "geographical coherence" is expected. Schools joining the Catholic 7 will "have to agree to surrender their media rights to the conference for a significant number of years -- possibly the life of the league's first TV contract, whether that's five, seven or 10 years" (WASHINGTON POST, 2/22).

BIG GOING SMALL? In Tulsa, John Klein reports the Big 12 is "leaning heavily toward a future with 10 teams." Big 12 Commissioner Bob Bowlsby said, "Ten is the right size for us. We have taken a look at all of the circumstances. We went through the entire process. ... There could be circumstances that change, but 10 is the right position for us. We will be prepared for anything. We won't just wait around and watch. But, we feel confident that 10 is the right number." Bowlsby, before speaking Thursday at the Tulsa Business Forums, "seemed to hint that it would take some major movement for the Big 12 to change its position on size or makeup of the conference" (TULSA WORLD, 2/22).

[MUMountin]

So, what does MU do with their "all in" approach to lacrosse in the new conference?

This may be one consideration for a team like Richmond--with C7+X/Butler, there are only 5 lacrosse teams--one short of the 6 necessary for an automatic bid league.  None of the other top possibilities (Creighton, SLU, Dayton) offer D-1 lacrosse.  So, either we'd have to invite affiliate members (keep Rutgers?  Michigan?), or find another conference in which to land lacrosse.

Not sure if that should be driving the boat, but who knows how important a consideration it might be to some schools?

[Norm]

What would surrendering media rights to the new conference mean? Is that good or bad for the schools involved?

[Norm]

This may be one consideration for a team like Richmond--with C7+X/Butler, there are only 5 lacrosse teams--one short of the 6 necessary for an automatic bid league.  None of the other top possibilities (Creighton, SLU, Dayton) offer D-1 lacrosse.  So, either we'd have to invite affiliate members (keep Rutgers?  Michigan?), or find another conference in which to land lacrosse.

Not sure if that should be driving the boat, but who knows how important a consideration it might be to some schools?

Know which school has lacrosse and was mentioned in the Feinstein and Hunt articles? Detroit.

[wardle2wade]

What would surrendering media rights to the new conference mean? Is that good or bad for the schools involved?

I believe it means the added-on schools (not the original C7) miss out on get the TV revenue of the first contract... Thus more money in the C7 pockets.  I'm for this, and obviously C7 should be able to pull this off since we are negotiating from a position of high strength.  C7 can offer something great and unique to the added-on schools... longterm financial stability and hoops recognition.  The C7 schools also have to deal with much more legal expenses in getting the league setup (as well as likely some exit fees concessions to the Big East), so the bigger piece of the pie will be put to good use.

Correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation.

[Litehouse]

No, it's for teams that would leave the C7 conference, kind of like an exit fee.  For example, it Marquette leaves the new conference to join the Big Teen, we would have to give the C7 conference all our Big Teen TV money for the duration of this hypothetical C7 TV contract.

[The Equalizer]

What would surrendering media rights to the new conference mean? Is that good or bad for the schools involved?

It depends on whether you put more empahsis on free/easy fan access to games across cable/internet or you want the largest possible dollar value on the contract.

"Surrenduring media rights" means Fox does whatever it can to recoup that $500 million (or whatever the number becomes).  

That probably results in a loss of free access to league games--including over the internet--as Fox Sports doesn't have the ad-driven revenue model that ESPN has right now.  I'm guessing there will probabaly be some limited number of free league games each week, and for the true fans a fee-based "all-access" pass--maybe $100/year or so--to see any games that aren't picked up.  

I would also assume that means that we'd give up what we've been getting through Nelligan--radio rights, Buzz's show, game programs and other revenue generating promotions.

[Eight Legger]

This may be one consideration for a team like Richmond--with C7+X/Butler, there are only 5 lacrosse teams--one short of the 6 necessary for an automatic bid league.  None of the other top possibilities (Creighton, SLU, Dayton) offer D-1 lacrosse.  So, either we'd have to invite affiliate members (keep Rutgers?  Michigan?), or find another conference in which to land lacrosse.

Not sure if that should be driving the boat, but who knows how important a consideration it might be to some schools?

This is why some of us at UR are thinking that the fact we cut men's soccer (seemingly out of nowhere) in order to add men's lacrosse may have happened at least in part because Georgetown or Villanova nudged us and said, 'Hey, do this and you'll be easier for us to sell to the new league.'

It sounds as if there would already be enough men's soccer teams for an auto bid but one more men's lacrosse team is needed. I have no idea if that's significant enough to warrant our inclusion or not (it wouldn't seem like it on the surface), but it's an interesting thing to consider.

We do still have women's soccer and have had women's lacrosse for years. We do not play volleyball (men or women).

[MU82]

The more I think about it, the more I like 10 teams, at least for the first year or three. You don't even think about divisions, you play a round-robin so that everybody gets a taste of everybody else's arena, you build rivalries a little faster, you make scheduling conference games a snap and you keep more of the pie.

Then, once everybody sees how great the C7+3 is, schools will practically kill for the next 2 spots.

As for who the 10th should be, Creighton seems to make a little more sense than Richmond for the arguments already stated, but I wouldn't jump out my window if Richmond or any of the serious contenders get that spot. Except Detroit. Or Siena. Or Bowdoin ... I think they were mentioned by Feinstein, too, right?

[ChicosBailBonds]

What would surrendering media rights to the new conference mean? Is that good or bad for the schools involved?

It means you let the conference do the negotiations for all television, internet, radio rights so they can bundle them together and get top dollar...they own the rights so they can monetize them and sell them to FOX, ESPN or whomever.  Now, it's possible it's only television or television and internet (digital).  Not sure.

What often happens is they will do a deal with a ESPN or FOX or whomever where those entities pick up which games they are going to put on their air.  The games that aren't picked up (the dogs of the schedule), are often released back to the individual schools where they can cut their own deals, similar to what happened with TimeWarner in Milwaukee or an over the air channel like the old days on channel 18 or 24.  We'll have to see what they do on that front.

[Aughnanure]

This is why some of us at UR are thinking that the fact we cut men's soccer (seemingly out of nowhere) in order to add men's lacrosse may have happened at least in part because Georgetown or Villanova nudged us and said, 'Hey, do this and you'll be easier for us to sell to the new league.'

It sounds as if there would already be enough men's soccer teams for an auto bid but one more men's lacrosse team is needed. I have no idea if that's significant enough to warrant our inclusion or not (it wouldn't seem like it on the surface), but it's an interesting thing to consider.

We do still have women's soccer and have had women's lacrosse for years. We do not play volleyball (men or women).

Looks like its time to start women's volleyball and restart men's soccer. It's amazing how many schools anymore don't even do some basic male sports (i.e. Soccer, wrestling, track even for some). The Big 12 doesn't even play men's soccer.

[4everwarriors]

Gotta disagree. Your basic male sports, including snatch, clean, and jerk are alive and well in the Big 12.

[MU82]

As much fun as it is to conversate (as MJ would say) about lacrosse and soccer, I'm guessing that such sports are approximately 0.5% of the focus when putting this conference together.

And that's being generous.

[MUMountin]

As much fun as it is to conversate (as MJ would say) about lacrosse and soccer, I'm guessing that such sports are approximately 0.5% of the focus when putting this conference together.

And that's being generous.

Maybe.  Maybe not. 

In the larger conference realignment scheme, where football is the predominant focus, and basketball maybe gets a tiny nod, I'd agree with you.

But, personally, I think that what the C7 are doing is a little different--a little more holistic.  ("As for the essential criteria of the schools that will be added, DeGioia, a member of the reform-minded Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics, cites three: Schools that put the student-athletes' interests first, both in the classroom and on the playing fields; school whose athletic departments are conducted with integrity; and schools that play exceptional basketball.)  Sounds to me like they are looking more than just who has the best basketball program (if that were the case, then I think you probably invite Gonzaga or VCU, and be done with it). 

In some ways, the C-7 has the luxury of doing so, as the level of the basketball programs at the potential targets (after X and Butler) are all relatively similar.  So, they can have a bigger conversation about how well the school fits in geographically, athletically (in terms of other sports), philosophically.

[jsglow]

Agree with your notion completely mountain.  Once we get past X and BU (and let's admit it.... that's the worst kept secret out there), then many factors well beyond someone's current AP basketball ranking are being considered.  I think there's a 'threshold' hurdle for Men's hoops and I believe all on the short list are already there.

One thing that I think hasn't been discussed much is an 'until death do us part' mentality.  None of the C7 want to go through this again.  Maybe that's why we start with 10 and let 11-12 say please, please for 2 years.  

[keefe]

Gotta disagree. Your basic male sports, including snatch, clean, and jerk are alive and well in the Big 12.

usually, if you have the snatch figured out then you can forego the jerk

[klyrish]

usually, if you have the snatch figured out then you can forego the jerk

HAHAHAHAHAHA

[RealChiliWarrior]

Or Bowdoin ... I think they were mentioned by Feinstein, too, right?

Forget Xavier and Butler, Bowdoin will bring Bates and Colby to make ten.  Bates, Bowdoin, and Colby the "Little Ivy's"

[keefe]

Know which school has lacrosse and was mentioned in the Feinstein and Hunt articles? Detroit.

Detroit Mercy Basketball



Playing before a "Packed House" in their Expansive Facility...

[keefe]

Forget Xavier and Butler, Bowdoin will bring Bates and Colby to make ten.  Bates, Bowdoin, and Colby the "Little Ivy's"

My oldest played LAX at Middlebury. The NESCAC is great sports. It must have been how intercollegiate athletics was 80 years ago. These schools really embrace their heritage