Looney Offer

[4everwarriors]

I trust 4ever, like I said....except when he says college basketball is a big man's game.      It's a guard's game, always has been and always will be.  UNC can't get it done the last few years because their guards have been crap.  Same for UCLA.  Gots to have the smalls with balls.

That's my dad, Chicos. Always the prankster. Gotta love him.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Not to be picky but MU has 7 guys that have logged at least 1 minute in the NBA

Wade
Novak
Wes
Lazar
Butler
Jae
DJO

I believe this puts MU in the top 10 of players in the Association.  But your larger point is correct.

(and MU has three alumni as head coaches, Doc, Boylan and Franks.  That ranks MU second behind IU that has 4 alumni as coaches)

You are correct, the list on CBS only shows 5.  The list on ESPN shows 6, probably because DJO currently not on roster.  MU has 7.  Still far behind the others.

[Tugg Speedman]

Second, MU was elite in the 1970's and has been very good in the 2000's...but not even the best in the state in the 2000's so we need to make sure we not put the blinders on.

I understand you have only one measure, the tourney.  And UW has been able to get the S16 more than us because they have to beat 10 and 12 seeds in the second round where we have to beat 3 seeds.

But if you look at the regular season.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/marquette/

MU has been ranked at least 1 week 10 of the last 12 years.  Top 10 5 of the last 12 years (including last year)

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/wisconsin/

UW has been ranked at least 1 week 11 of the last 12 years.  Top 10 4 of the last 12 years (including last year)

Now I know you will give me 700 words that I am wrong and UW is better.  Let's just call it a tie (they are both well above average) and agree that they have very different styles and ask if Looney's style makes sense at UW?

[brewcity77]

A few more thoughts...

1) Stretch, wanting Looney here or accepting he probably won't be here has nothing to do with loyalty. But of the people I've talked with that are close to the recruitment, all of them seem to think we're probably not going to get him.
2) Not sure how relevant it is, but I think Wiggins is FAR more likely to go to UK than UNC. Maybe the family connection gets him to FSU, but I doubt it.
3) Bo has finished in the top-4 of the Big Ten every year since forever. They had the better decade. It's okay...we'll have the better next decade as long as Buzz sticks.

[We R Final Four]

You are correct, the list on CBS only shows 5.  The list on ESPN shows 6, probably because DJO currently not on roster.  MU has 7.  Still far behind the others.

How many for UW?

[MUSF]

Trying to determine what thought process drives the decisions of teenagers is nearly pointless.

That said, I believe history is typically the best indicator. If you are an elite talent and one of the big boys offers you a scholly, you typically accept.

[LloydMooresLegs]

Well, look at the numbers

Duke has 18 kinds currently in the NBA.  Kentucky has 21.  Marquette has 5.

I don't think that point refutes my argument (though it is a point well taken for the proposition that many NBA type players attend Duke).   My argument (well, more of a question) went more toward whether going to the big 4 actually helps your chances.  I don't think so, because the big 4 get the best players out of HS who would make it if they sent to MU or Illinois or UConn.  That's why I said:

"it must be very hard to measure because it is somewhat self-selecting-- the best HS players Dom go to those schools, so those schools get more players into the league.  But won't talent win out in the end no matter where from?"

[MUSF]

I don't think that point refutes my argument (though it is a point well taken for the proposition that many NBA type players attend Duke).   My argument (well, more of a question) went more toward whether going to the big 4 actually helps your chances.  I don't think so, because the big 4 get the best players out of HS who would make it if they sent to MU or Illinois or UConn.  

This is easy to say, and sounds plausible, but also impossible to prove. For every lower ranked recruit that unexpectedly makes it to the NBA, there is an elite prospect that failed to make it. Hard to definitively say what impact the school choice / coach had on either situation.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I understand you have only one measure, the tourney.  And UW has been able to get the S16 more than us because they have to beat 10 and 12 seeds in the second round where we have to beat 3 seeds.

But if you look at the regular season.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/marquette/

MU has been ranked at least 1 week 10 of the last 12 years.  Top 10 5 of the last 12 years (including last year)

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/wisconsin/

UW has been ranked at least 1 week 11 of the last 12 years.  Top 10 4 of the last 12 years (including last year)

Now I know you will give me 700 words that I am wrong and UW is better.  Let's just call it a tie (they are both well above average) and agree that they have very different styles and ask if Looney's style makes sense at UW?

No sir, actually I have many measures.  Not sure how your rankings data overshadows below, I really don't.  It is what it is.  We've been really good, they've been a touch better.

Conference championships...UW-madison
Conference tournament championships....UW-madison
NCAA Tournament appearances...UW-madison (they have made the NCAAs EVERY year since 2000)
NCAA Tournament wins....UW-madison
Regular season wins...UW-madison
Head to head against MU...UW-madison

[ChicosBailBonds]

How many for UW?

I have no idea, I would guess 1 or 2.  They are a very good college basketball program, but not a program you go to if you want to aspire to the NBA in my opinion.  A number of programs are like that.  Gonzaga, Butler, Wisconsin, etc.  A few NBA guys here and there, but not a program that would you expect to crank out players to the association.

EDIT:  They have 3

[Tugg Speedman]

I have no idea, I would guess 1 or 2.  They are a very good college basketball program, but not a program you go to if you want to aspire to the NBA in my opinion.  A number of programs are like that.  Gonzaga, Butler, Wisconsin, etc.  A few NBA guys here and there, but not a program that would you expect to crank out players to the association.

EDIT:  They have 3

Harris, Devin PG Atlanta Hawks
Leuer, Jon PF Cleveland Cavaliers
Stiemsma, Greg C Minnesota Timberwolves

[Tugg Speedman]

No sir, actually I have many measures.  Not sure how your rankings data overshadows below, I really don't.  It is what it is.  We've been really good, they've been a touch better.

Conference championships...UW-madison
Conference tournament championships....UW-madison
NCAA Tournament appearances...UW-madison (they have made the NCAAs EVERY year since 2000)
NCAA Tournament wins....UW-madison
Regular season wins...UW-madison
Head to head against MU...UW-madison

I'll bet if you use this measure against schools like Michigan State, Louisville, Georgetown, Kentucky and UCLA UW is the better program.  No one will buy this.

Added later ... And using these measures, Memphis, Butler and Gonzaga are better programs than UW.  You buying that?

[Tugg Speedman]

MU is tied for 11th this year.

-----

http://www.rpiratings.com/NBA.php
2012 - 2013 Season

School                    In NBA
1. Kentucky                    20
2. Duke                        17
3. North Carolina              17
4. Kansas                      14
5. Connecticut                 12
6. UCLA                        12
7. Texas                       11
8. Florida                     10
9. Arizona                      9
10. Washington                   8
11. Georgia Tech                 7
12. Marquette                    7
13. Notre Dame                   6
14. Ohio State                   6
15. Syracuse                     6
16. Wake Forest                  6
17. Gonzaga                      5
18. Louisiana State              5
19. Memphis                      5
20. Michigan State               5
21. Stanford                     5
22. USC                          5
23. Baylor                       4
24. Colorado                     4
25. Villanova                    4


Other Stats

* There were 56 foreign players on 2012-13 NBA opening-day rosters, or 12.5% of the NBA total. That is 5 foreign players more than last season.

* A total of 31 players went straight from U.S. high schools to the NBA (7.0% of the NBA total)

* 2 players attended non-Division I colleges (0.5%).

* Division I colleges provide the balance of 357 NBA players (80.0%).

* Foreign players that played in U.S. colleges are counted under the appropriate Division I school listing.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'll bet if you use this measure against schools like Michigan State, Louisville, Georgetown, Kentucky and UCLA UW is the better program.  No one will buy this.

Added later ... And using these measures, Memphis, Butler and Gonzaga are better programs than UW.  You buying that?

I'm not sure where anyone said a better program.  I said better since 2000, not overall. 

The measure(s) I used were many, not one. That was the point, so no one can go out and cherry pick one thing...you know...like rankings.  I used actual results, WINNING AND LOSING and championships which are derived from winning and losing. So actually, using those measures, it might just surprise you.  It shows there isn't necessarily a clear cut answer.  For example, UCLA has won more NCAA games in the 2000's than UW-madison.  But UW-madison has been to the tournament more often.  UW-madison has won more regular season games, but UCLA more conference championships.  Same with Michigan State, same with some of the others.  That's why using multiple criteria is a good idea.

Do I think Gonzaga and Butler are better programs in the 2000's than Wisconsin...very credible argument absolutely can be made.  Butler has two championship NCAA games, a ton of NCAA victories, conference championships, etc.  Even head to head over UW-madison in the tournament.  All that being said, UW-madison has some things over those schools as well.  So it's inconclusive.

I don't see how it's inconclusive UW-madison over us since 2000 by any appreciable measure that uses wins, championships, post season appearances, post season success.  To each their own.

[Lennys Tap]

If a kid is elite and doesn't have a preference for staying close to home, MU has almost no chance against Duke/coach K. That's no knock on  Marquette - lots of good programs on that little to no chance list, including Michigan St, Ohio St and Indiana.

[LloydMooresLegs]

This is easy to say, and sounds plausible, but also impossible to prove. For every lower ranked recruit that unexpectedly makes it to the NBA, there is an elite prospect that failed to make it. Hard to definitively say what impact the school choice / coach had on either situation.

That's my guess.  In any event, I can't figure out how to measure it.  Which brings me back around to the original point:  it may not make sense for recruits to have as one of their reasons (among many other very good reasons- the coach; the school; the competiton; the chance to win etc.) for choosing the Big 4 that it enhances their opportunity to play in the league.

[ChicosBailBonds]

MU is tied for 11th this year.

-----

http://www.rpiratings.com/NBA.php
2012 - 2013 Season

School                    In NBA
1. Kentucky                    20
2. Duke                        17

Kentucky has 21, not 20.  Duke has 18, not 17.

Bledsoe, Eric   
Bogans, Keith   
Cousins, DeMarcus   
Davis, Anthony   
Harrellson, Josh   
Hayes, Chuck   
Jones, Terrence   
Kanter, Enes   
Kidd-Gilchrist, Michael   
Knight, Brandon   
Lamb, Doron   
Liggins, DeAndre   
Meeks, Jodie   
Miller, Darius   
Mohammed, Nazr
Orton, Daniel   
Patterson, Patrick
Prince, Tayshaun   
Rondo, Rajon   
Teague, Marquis   
Wall, John

Duke

Battier, Shane
Boozer, Carlos   
Brand, Elton   
Deng, Luol   
Duhon, Chris   
Dunleavy, Mike   
Henderson, Gerald   
Hill, Grant   
Irving, Kyrie   
Jones, Dahntay   
Maggette, Corey
McRoberts, Josh   
Plumlee, Miles   
Redick, J.J.   
Rivers, Austin   
Singler, Kyle   
Smith, Nolan   
Thomas, Lance

[ChicosBailBonds]

If a kid is elite and doesn't have a preference to staying close to home, MU has almost no chance against Duke/coach K. That's no knock on Marqutte - lots of good programs on that little to no chance list, including Michigan St, Ohio St and Indiana.

+1

[karavotsos]

I'm not sure where anyone said a better program.  I said better since 2000, not overall. 

The measure(s) I used were many, not one. That was the point, so no one can go out and cherry pick one thing...you know...like rankings. 

Isn't this just the rehashing of a pre-banning argument?  You cherry-picked one arbitrary thing in this argument that is even more arbitrary now than it was pre-banning, the year 2000.  Neither program even has the same coach.  Completely arbitrary and cherrypicked.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Isn't this just the rehashing of a pre-banning argument?  You cherry-picked one arbitrary thing in this argument that is even more arbitrary now than it was pre-banning, the year 2000.  Neither program even has the same coach.  Completely arbitrary and cherrypicked.

Everything is arbitrary.  Since 2000, the last decade, same result.  Last 15 years, same result.  Last 20 years, same result.  Now, go to last 40 years, result changes.

[keefe]

 Gonzaga, Butler, Wisconsin, etc.  A few NBA guys here and there, but not a program that would you expect to crank out players to the association.

EDIT:  They have 3

there are 4 Zags in the Association.

[LloydMooresLegs]

Interesting to see that Louisville is not in the top 25.

[77ncaachamps]

there are 4 Zags in the Association.

Sacre, Pargo, Daye, Turiaff.
Morrison could have been 5.
There are also two Zags in the NBADL, and one Warrior (Jerel).

RE: Tokoto, it is still my hope that UNC recruits over him, limits his playing time, and he comes back to Milwaukee to shine.
Just peeped his numbers though: 10.6 minutes per game, 52.9% FG, but 8-22 from the FT (yikes).

[MUSF]

RE: Tokoto, it is still my hope that UNC recruits over him, limits his playing time, and he comes back to Milwaukee to shine.
Just peeped his numbers though: 10.6 minutes per game, 52.9% FG, but 8-22 from the FT (yikes).

Tokoto will get plenty of opportunities at UNC if he is willing to stick it out and compete. If not, he could very well end up at a program like MU. But, Williams and those who cover the Tar Heels seem to like his potential / upside.

[Marqus Howard]

As far as Berry I find it relatively unrealistic.   I have no insider information to base this opinion off of but I do know the Orlando area well.  Berry changed schools from Apopka to Highland (a VERY nice private school that had a winning tradition) his sophomore year.  He is someone who is obviously very concerned about winning and will probably look long and hard at those top flight programs.  Also being from FL I find it very hard to believe that he will ever make it out of the state.  Billy Donovan has a very strong hold on the top players from the state and most are attracted to the warm weather and up tempo style of play that is offered at UF.  I would love to see Berry in an MU uniform more than anyone but I doubt it will happen.

Thanks for the insight. With Derrick Wilson, Duane Wilson, and John Dawson in the fold I was skeptical that we had a chance with him, but you never know - Buzz constantly talks about how much he loves to bring in point guards.