Good Point Jay Bilas

[TJ]

The problem is that we aren't talking about just 64 schools or 5 conferences.  That's really the entire point.

I understand, but at the end of the day those privileged few are going to be all that matters.  We'll see what happens.

[Tugg Speedman]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

THEY CAN GET JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!      THEY ALREADY ARE PERMITTED TO GET JOBS WITHIN THE RULES.   How many incorrect things are you going to say in this one thread?

Bylaw 12.4 of the NCAA rulebook.  THEY CAN WORK and BE PAID.

True story ... Goldman Sachs takes undergrads as summer interns.  Some get paid as much as $100,000 for the summer (or $30,000/month).  These are the top kids they want to hire after graduation.

Since bylaw 12.4 of the NCAA rulebook says they can have jobs, then I guess they can get paid 100,000 a summer.  Since Goldman does it, we have a precedent and I'm sure the NCAA will have problem if Dick Strong is hiring summer interns off the basketball team for $100,000 a summer.

So I repeat with Navin's clarification, can they get summer jobs based on who they are?   Could they be hired for meet and greets around town?  Or can they only punch a clock for minimum wage cleaning dorms?

[ChicosBailBonds]

True story ... Goldman Sachs takes undergrads as summer interns.  Some get paid as much as $100,000 for the summer (or $30,000/month).  These are the top kids they want to hire after graduation.

Since bylaw 12.4 of the NCAA rulebook says they can have jobs, then I guess they can get paid 100,000 a summer.  Since Goldman does it, we have a precedent and I'm sure the NCAA will have problem if Dick Strong is hiring summer interns off the basketball team for $100,000 a summer.

So I repeat with Navin's clarification, can they get summer jobs based on who they are?   Could they be hired for meet and greets around town?  Or can they only punch a clock for minimum wage cleaning dorms?

Is this like the true story that poor little Chris Webber couldn't buy his own jersey despite getting paid $280K to attend Michigan?

Care to provide a link for your story?  I've seen where some interns get an ANNUAL salary of $95,000 as an intern...annual...12 months....if it is annualized, which of course almost always it isn't.  So some wisecrack says a guy made $25K over the Summer, therefore that extrapolates to $100K.  Of course, this is also for an internship with a Masters for Financial Engineering.  An bachelor's  internship (not yet graduated from school) from Sachs are for $29.50 an hour.  Still, a great gig if you can get it.  These are high caliber candidates that they put through the ringer...I deal with these type of people at McKinsey, etc, all the time...we're talking Yale, Harvard, Tufts, Cal, MIT, type pedigree.  Same types that fill those types of internships.

So let's get serious.  The reason I know your claim sounds wildly UNTRUE (despite your "true story claim") is an analyst at Goldman Sachs makes about $70K while an associate makes about $100K. An intern doesn't.

http://www.businessinsider.com/wall-street-interns-are-now-making-100000-per-year-quants-2011-5


http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Goldman-Sachs-San-Francisco-Salaries-EI_IE2800.0,13_IL.14,27_IM759.htm

[keefe]

True story ... Goldman Sachs takes undergrads as summer interns.  Some get paid as much as $100,000 for the summer (or $30,000/month).  These are the top kids they want to hire after graduation.

Not really. MBA's at the very top schools get that for the summer.

[Tugg Speedman]

Not really. MBA's at the very top schools get that for the summer.

New salary structure because of social media ... These kids are being offered even more to go to Silicon Valley, that who is Goldman is competiting with now for top talent.  Too many kids make a billion before 25 now in the valley (think Instagram) that Wall Street "welfare checks" and slave hours are not interesting unless you really pay up.  Again the 100k is for the select few they want after graduation, not the published rate you site.  These kids will be making 7 figures in a few years, and 8 figures soon after that.

But let's not get side tracked with Goldman salary structure ... Start a Superbar thread if you want to discuss. 

The issue was if players can get jobs, why doesn't some big donor offer a 100k a summer for an internship?

[ChicosBailBonds]

New salary structure because of social media ... These kids are being offered even more to go to Silicon Valley, that who is Goldman is competiting with now for top talent.  Too many kids make a billion before 25 now in the valley (think Instagram) that Wall Street "welfare checks" and slave hours are not interesting unless you really pay up.  Again the 100k is for the select few they want after graduation, not the published rate you site.  These kids will be making 7 figures in a few years, and 8 figures soon after that.

But let's not get side tracked with Goldman salary structure ... Start a Superbar thread if you want to discuss.  

The issue was if players can get jobs, why doesn't some big donor offer a 100k a summer for an internship?

Too many kids make a billion before 25?  You keep throwing out these extremes.  How many kids are making a billion before 25?  

And the issue is KIDS CAN GET JOBS, despite you claiming they couldn't.  They absolutely can.  Too many items in this thread you have claimed turned out to be dead wrong.  Kids not being able to go from high school to the NBDL...yes they can.  Kids not being able to get jobs...yes they can.  Chris Webber not being able to afford a jersey....uhm, yes he could.  Claiming that other student athletes don't get tutors...wrong.  Claiming that 45% of unemployed are that way because a lack of those skills....no.   Where are you finding this nonsense of wrongness...stay away from that website or that section of your memory, it's killing your arguments.  This is getting a bit old.

[Tugg Speedman]

Too many kids make a billion before 25?  You keep throwing out these extremes.  How many kids are making a billion before 25?  

And the issue is KIDS CAN GET JOBS, despite you claiming they couldn't.  They absolutely can.  Too many items in this thread you have claimed turned out to be dead wrong.  Kids not being able to go from high school to the NBDL...yes they can.  Kids not being able to get jobs...yes they can.  Chris Webber not being able to afford a jersey....uhm, yes he could.  Claiming that other student athletes don't get tutors...wrong.  Claiming that 45% of unemployed are that way because a lack of those skills....no.   Where are you finding this nonsense of wrongness...stay away from that website or that section of your memory, it's killing your arguments.  This is getting a bit old.

Going to keep this on topic ...

If they can get jobs, why doesn't Calipari arrange 100k a summer jobs for all his top recruits?

[TJ]

http://www.stanford.edu/~islander/jobrules.html

I stand corrected, apparently student-athletes can get jobs.  I am certain that I had heard in the past that they were not allowed to.  I wonder if/when the rule changed to allow this.

[ChicosBailBonds]

http://www.stanford.edu/~islander/jobrules.html

I stand corrected, apparently student-athletes can get jobs.  I am certain that I had heard in the past that they were not allowed to.  I wonder if/when the rule changed to allow this.

Please educate AnotherMU84 on this along with about 5 to 6 other things in this thread.    

The rule has been around since January of 1997.  "A representative of athletics interests may employ current student - athletes if their compensation is based on work actually performed at a rate commensurate with the going rate for services of like character. Further, compensation may not be based on the student - athletes' publicity, reputation, or fame obtained because of athletic ability."


Section 4   http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/AMA/compliance_forms/DI/DI%20Summary%20of%20NCAA%20Regulations.pdf



AnotherMU84...Coach Cal doesn't do that because his program would be thrown into NCAA rules violation.  This isn't hard.  I'm sure many of the athletes are probably already getting paid for work that isn't exactly taxing, but to go to the absurdity of making a 100K summer job would be just a touch over the top and too easy to sniff out. It's also against the rules since the maximum amount a student can earn is the cost of attending the school.

[Tugg Speedman]

Please educate AnotherMU84 on this along with about 5 to 6 other things in this thread.    

If you start a Superbar thread I will answer and show I was correct in everything but the NBDL comment.  No more in this thread.

[StillAWarrior]

Coach Cal doesn't do that because his program would be thrown into NCAA rules violation.

That's never stopped him before.   

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

THEY CAN GET JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!      THEY ALREADY ARE PERMITTED TO GET JOBS WITHIN THE RULES.   How many incorrect things are you going to say in this one thread?

Bylaw 12.4 of the NCAA rulebook.  THEY CAN WORK and BE PAID.

I think I read somewhere that a lot of UConn players work summer jobs at Connecticut car dealerships.

[ChicosBailBonds]

That's never stopped him before.   

According to the NCAA, he hasn't done anything.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If you start a Superbar thread I will answer and show I was correct in everything but the NBDL comment.  No more in this thread.

You've already been proven wrong in every one of those scenarios here.  Start a SuperBar thread if you wish to backtrack, but your statements have already been blown up here.

[Tugg Speedman]

You've already been proven wrong in every one of those scenarios here.  Start a SuperBar thread if you wish to backtrack, but your statements have already been blown up here.

Half those statements were not mine, the rest are correct (except the NBDL which does not matter)

Here's one ...

Chris Webber saying he could not afford his Jersey was a direct quote from Chris in Mitch Albom's book "Fab Five."  But because some poster noted that Big Ed Martin slipped him $280,000 that makes me personally wrong?

What Webber said was 100% correct.  Based on what he got from University of Michigan, he could not afford his own Jersey.  Because he took illegal money does not change that reality.

Now, you knew all of this.  You knew the quote, knew the book, knew about Ed Martin and his role but you kept insisting that I was personally wrong just to be a dick.  Now, let it go and keep on the subject of giving players a stipend (Jay Bilas was correct) and keep arguing for your case of some sort of amateur slavery in college sports.

[Pakuni]

Half those statements were not mine, the rest are correct (except the NBDL which does not matter)

Of course it doesn't matter after you were shown to be so blatantly wrong about it.

Now, let it go and keep on the subject of giving players a stipend (Jay Bilas was correct) and keep arguing for your case of some sort of amateur slavery in college sports.

Ought there not be some sort of Godwin's law in effect for when people raise the specter of slavery?
But you've proven me wrong in one sense. Just when I thought your arguments couldn't get any worse ....

[Tugg Speedman]

Of course it doesn't matter after you were shown to be so blatantly wrong about it.

Has anyone gone from High School directly to the NBDL?

[Pakuni]

Has anyone gone from High School directly to the NBDL?

Yes. A former Marquette recruit, in fact.
Google is your friend.

[Tugg Speedman]

Yes Google is your friend and their is a restriction to jumping from HS to the NBDL.  So if you graduate from HS at 17, you have to wait a year.

----

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2407522

A player is eligible to be signed to a D-League contract if he is or will be at least 18 years old during the calendar year in which the D-League draft is held and his high school class has graduated. Also, the player may not have attended college in the United States in the academic year that takes place during the season covered by his D-League contract.

The D-League's new eligibility rule will go into effect at the same time as the NBA's new age limit, which requires players to be 19 years old and one year out of high school in order to sign an NBA contract or be eligible for the draft.

[akmarq]

The courts have not ruled that way.   There is not the barriers to entry like a common utility has or other monopoly industries.  The courts, however, have ruled about collusion and that could interesting in the aforementioned O'Bannon case.

I'm also interested to see where the case goes. I'm of the opinion that, while there are few 'natural' barriers to entry, the market can really only sustain one professional league in each sport (look at Arena football or the old ABL). Consumers reach a saturation point in the sports they follow and 32 team leagues are enought to meet demand for professional athletics.

College is a bit of a unique case because the NCAA has monopolized ALL leagues in ALL sports and there is larger demand for players (more teams). If we divide DI from other divisions, however, there is still extremely limted demand for players and the barriers to starting a new program are quite high (see Marquette and football). This isn't a situation where removing the NCAA's monopoly power is going to create more competition in the market for players...it's going to create less and those with market power (big SEC and state school programs) are better able to leverage that power.

[Pakuni]

Yes Google is your friend and their is a restriction to jumping from HS to the NBDL.  So if you graduate from HS at 17, you have to wait a year.

----

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2407522

A player is eligible to be signed to a D-League contract if he is or will be at least 18 years old during the calendar year in which the D-League draft is held and his high school class has graduated. Also, the player may not have attended college in the United States in the academic year that takes place during the season covered by his D-League contract.

The D-League's new eligibility rule will go into effect at the same time as the NBA's new age limit, which requires players to be 19 years old and one year out of high school in order to sign an NBA contract or be eligible for the draft.

Nice try, but no, that's not what the rule says.
It says a player must turn 18 during the calendar year of the draft and his graduation. So a kid can graduate at 17 and sign with the D-League at 17, so long as he turns 18 by Dec. 31.
Seriously, how many high school kids don't turn 18 at some point during the year of their high school graduation?

Is it really so hard to admit you're wrong?

[Tugg Speedman]

Nice try, but no, that's not what the rule says.
It says a player must turn 18 during the calendar year of the draft and his graduation. So a kid can graduate at 17 and sign with the D-League at 17, so long as he turns 18 by Dec. 31.
Seriously, how many high school kids don't turn 18 at some point during the year of their high school graduation?

Is it really so hard to admit you're wrong?

The number is greater than zero because I did and I have two daughters that will.

I did repeatedly about the NBDL, look on the previous pages.  I also said it does not matter ... as it relates to the idea of paying players a stipend.

Now why don't you call me a Nazi so we can lock this thread.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Half those statements were not mine, the rest are correct (except the NBDL which does not matter)

Here's one ...

Chris Webber saying he could not afford his Jersey was a direct quote from Chris in Mitch Albom's book "Fab Five."  But because some poster noted that Big Ed Martin slipped him $280,000 that makes me personally wrong?

What Webber said was 100% correct.  Based on what he got from University of Michigan, he could not afford his own Jersey.  Because he took illegal money does not change that reality.

Now, you knew all of this.  You knew the quote, knew the book, knew about Ed Martin and his role but you kept insisting that I was personally wrong just to be a dick.  Now, let it go and keep on the subject of giving players a stipend (Jay Bilas was correct) and keep arguing for your case of some sort of amateur slavery in college sports.

You used the Chris Webber example as a way to claim that these kids were so poor they couldn't even afford their own jersey.  You brought that up.  My point is that it was a ridiculous person to bring up as an example for any number of reasons, including the fact he had been given $280K to go to Michigan and was hardly poor as a result.  Anyone taken in by his sob story was duped.  It was a very poor example.  Yes, there are some kids in that predicament.  Of course, some of these same kids have an iPhone5, $400 headphones, an XBOX360 and on and on...but that's a conversation for another day.  Then when you compound it by saying things like schools are making billions off merchandise sales I just want to jump out of my window.  That is such a preposterous claim on all levels, but it feeds your belief that somehow these guys are wronged.

They aren't wronged.  If they feel they should be making money off the sale of a jersey with Marquette or Michigan on it that has their number (even though others have also worn that number), then they can go to the NBDL and see how their jersey sells in Bakersfield.  Did it ever occur to you or Chris Webber or anyone else making those claims that people also buy Marquette (or Michigan) jerseys, sweatshirts, t-shirts, hats, because they like the school, like the basketball team, etc....those entities are spending a lot of money to provide a team for Mr. Webber and others to put their skills on display.  Without them, there is no basketball team.  So it cuts both ways. 

If these players feel so wronged for ONLY receiving a quality education that will pay them over 10X fold in their lives, free room and board, etc, etc....then I suggest they go to the NBDL.  For soccer players, I suggest they go to Europe and try to make a go of it.  For Lacrosse players, maybe the NLL.  For golf, go out and get your card....afterall, I can buy a MU Golf cap in the Warrior Shoppe so clearly these golfers are exploited.   

[Tugg Speedman]

You used the Chris Webber example as a way to claim that these kids were so poor they couldn't even afford their own jersey.  You brought that up.  My point is that it was a ridiculous person to bring up as an example for any number of reasons, including the fact he had been given $280K to go to Michigan and was hardly poor as a result.  Anyone taken in by his sob story was duped.  It was a very poor example.  Yes, there are some kids in that predicament.  Of course, some of these same kids have an iPhone5, $400 headphones, an XBOX360 and on and on...but that's a conversation for another day.  Then when you compound it by saying things like schools are making billions off merchandise sales I just want to jump out of my window.  That is such a preposterous claim on all levels, but it feeds your belief that somehow these guys are wronged.

They aren't wronged.  If they feel they should be making money off the sale of a jersey with Marquette or Michigan on it that has their number (even though others have also worn that number), then they can go to the NBDL and see how their jersey sells in Bakersfield.  Did it ever occur to you or Chris Webber or anyone else making those claims that people also buy Marquette (or Michigan) jerseys, sweatshirts, t-shirts, hats, because they like the school, like the basketball team, etc....those entities are spending a lot of money to provide a team for Mr. Webber and others to put their skills on display.  Without them, there is no basketball team.  So it cuts both ways. 

If these players feel so wronged for ONLY receiving a quality education that will pay them over 10X fold in their lives, free room and board, etc, etc....then I suggest they go to the NBDL.  For soccer players, I suggest they go to Europe and try to make a go of it.  For Lacrosse players, maybe the NLL.  For golf, go out and get your card....afterall, I can buy a MU Golf cap in the Warrior Shoppe so clearly these golfers are exploited.   

If you want to give me a free market argument, then go all the way.  Let players make money off their appearance and do endorsements.  Aurora Health is a big sponsor of MU basketball.  Maybe they would like Otule as a spokesman.  How about the doctor that repaired his knee, why not let him advertise using Otule, and pay him?

Why can't players get paid for meet and greets?  Why can't they get paid for signing memorabilia?  Why can't they get summer jobs with high roller Alums and "what they do and what they get paid is none of your business?"

Why only the "go to the NBDL" argument?  That is the lowest paying option.  Why not let them make money off their college years? 

[TJ]

By the way, the last article I read on this topic showed a graph that had some of the biggest schools yearly revenue from athletics at about $80 million.  So my math before based only on media revenue is a lot different than the real picture.  If the $80 million is right, and I have no proof that it is, then contrast that against the $10 million (a high estimate) in scholarship costs and my point remains... eventually that discrepancy is going to get so large that something's got to give.