Good Point Jay Bilas

[ChicosBailBonds]

Avid, to be fair my complaint is about the yahoos that are out there saying football and basketball athletes should be paid $25K to $50K a year.  There are actual policy people out there making these crazy comments with no possible tethering to reality. 

[LloydMooresLegs]

I'm shocked he was allowed to participate.  Whenever we ran those shots at MU and IU, the insurance waiver required the participants to sign a document.  In that document, if they had played any high school basketball, college basketball, semi-pro basketball they were not eligible to play.  It was a standard document that almost all schools use, so I'm surprised that Butler isn't using the same process.  By excluding those athletes with those types of backgrounds, the insurance is much cheaper. 

He actually didn't play HS for reasons other than his skill.  He is on the practice squad vs the Butler women's team (though I'm not sure what tha says). 

[Dawson Rental]

Why is it dumb?  If you pay men's basketball, you have to pay track, soccer, women's volleyball, etc, etc.  You will eliminate 80% of the programs.  It's not dumb at all.

You've really hit on the heart of the problem.  Kids who are generating revenue in their sport are seeing that revenue redirected to pay for the expenses of other non-revenue sports.  It especially a concern for football where kids are risking great injury in order to earn schools the money to fund the other sports.  Just because other college students are benefiting is no rationale to justify ripping off college students. 

This whole system developed over such a long period of time that universities got a pass.  I really think that they've blown it with the conference realignment and the big cable TV deals.  They are really bringing it out into the open just how big a business college revenue sports are, and I believe that it will lead eventually to paying student athletes.

[MU1980]

Maybe Chico, Sultan or someone else from late 80s/early 90s will remember, but I have a memory of a Marquette athlete (cross country maybe) participating in one of these and winning three prizes including a car. I think it was at Loyola. He had to either turn it down or lose his scholarship.  It's hazy, so I may be wrong on some of the details.

I am pretty sure of the details, or very close. It was a cross country/track athlete named Mike O'Hara.  He was at home for Christmas break and was at a Loyola basketball game.  He was randomly picked to do the half time contest.  He had 45 seconds to make a layup, free throw, three pointer from the top of the key, a half court shot straight on and half court from the side.  He made the layup, free throw and three pointer on his first attempts, made the half court straight on shot in two or three tries and hit the half court from the side at the buzzer.  Each shot he made he got a better and better prize, with the first half court winning airline tickets and the second half court a Ford Mustang GT convertible.  

With the way the rules were written back then, he could not accept the prizes and keep his athletic scholarship.  With the taxes he would have had to pay on the car ($28.000 car) and the lost scholarship money, it was best for him to decline the prizes.  A few years later the rule was changed and he could have won the prizes.  The rule was that you were not allowed to use your athletics ability to win any type of half time contest.  Scrawny cross country runners aren't usually known for their athletic ability, but he was obviously a pretty good shooter.  

[ChicosBailBonds]

He actually didn't play HS for reasons other than his skill.  He is on the practice squad vs the Butler women's team (though I'm not sure what tha says). 

Thanks

You've really hit on the heart of the problem.  Kids who are generating revenue in their sport are seeing that revenue redirected to pay for the expenses of other non-revenue sports.  It especially a concern for football where kids are risking great injury in order to earn schools the money to fund the other sports.  Just because other college students are benefiting is no rationale to justify ripping off college students.

This whole system developed over such a long period of time that universities got a pass.  I really think that they've blown it with the conference realignment and the big cable TV deals.  They are really bringing it out into the open just how big a business college revenue sports are, and I believe that it will lead eventually to paying student athletes.

We'll see.  I don't know how you do it without destroying college sports.  People forget that only the top top schools have revenue of any material amounts.  There are 330 DI schools, a ton of DII schools, a ton of DIII schools.  The revenues from the TV deals pay for all three divisions.  Then you factor in non-revenue sports for both men and women.  You're either going to get to a situation where you kill those Olympic sports entirely or have no scholarships for them, or some other major impact elsewhere.

We haven't even gotten into the contract employee situation, benefits, etc.  Hard to see it not destroying it for most programs.  There is tremendous value with a college scholarship, but that doesn't seem to be enough.

[Avenue Commons]

Bilas believes players should get a stipend, say $1,000/month.  Enough to buy a few things and go out to a movie.  This would eliminate a lot of the problems that get people/programs in trouble.

Bilas is correct.

There is a wide, vast difference between a monthly stipend and a free market system. A G a month ain't a problem.

[nathanziarek]

There is a wide, vast difference between a monthly stipend and a free market system. A G a month ain't a problem.

Fine pay them, but make it a true market system. Let good players leave for better schools and more cash. Make the contracts yearly so poor performers have their salaries reduced. Remember that any scholarships, room and board, tutor costs, etc are now benefits and tax them accordingly.

Maybe we found the answer to the country's budget woes!

[nathanziarek]

But players do not own their image when in college.  Vander could not do local commercials in Milwaukee.  Cody Zeller cannot sign as a TV pitchman to do national commercials.  The coaches can and do this.

This cost the players a lot of money.

They absolutely can do this. They just can't play an amateur sport while doing so. They didn't have to go to American college. They could go try and play in Europe. Truth is, this pseudo farm system works pretty good for them. Gets them recognition they'd never get without the university.

[warriorstrack]

Maybe Chico, Sultan or someone else from late 80s/early 90s will remember, but I have a memory of a Marquette athlete (cross country maybe) participating in one of these and winning three prizes including a car. I think it was at Loyola. He had to either turn it down or lose his scholarship.  It's hazy, so I may be wrong on some of the details.

His name was Mike O'Hara, he had about one year of eligibility left. They changed the rule a few years later and made it sport specific so he could have kept every thing but had to give it all t-shirt, airline tickets and mustang back

[MUBurrow]

Truth is, this pseudo farm system works pretty good for them. Gets them recognition they'd never get without the university.

thats not a fair comparison.  If there wasnt NCAA basketball, something would fill the void.  Clearly this country wants to pay for basketball beyond the NBA.  What would fill the void would pay the players.  So its not fair to say that its NCAAB or nothing.

[ChicosBailBonds]

thats not a fair comparison.  If there wasnt NCAA basketball, something would fill the void.  Clearly this country wants to pay for basketball beyond the NBA.  What would fill the void would pay the players.  So its not fair to say that its NCAAB or nothing.

Yes, I agree, but it wouldn't fill it to the same extent.  The benefit of having college athletics from a television perspective is you keep filling the bucket of fans because you keep graduating alumni that care about their school, and by definition "their team".  If you merely had a minor league basketball entity below the NBA, some people would gravitate toward it, but it is hard to fathom it being anything close to college hoops because of a lack of affinity toward the product that you get today from students, alumni, etc.  It's one of the reasons the NBDL is what it is...not very fantastic.

[tower912]

http://www.tennessean.com/viewart/20130116/SPORTS06/301160114/SEC-schools-spend-164-000-per-athlete


This is just one in a series of articles that points out how much schools are already spending per student athlete.    This one says $164k per athlete in the SEC.   There are other articles that indicat the Big East spends more than $100k per athlete.    I hate to agree with Chicos, but how could a school like MU pay that much per athlete AND include a stipend. 

[nathanziarek]

thats not a fair comparison.  If there wasnt NCAA basketball, something would fill the void.  Clearly this country wants to pay for basketball beyond the NBA.  What would fill the void would pay the players.  So its not fair to say that its NCAAB or nothing.

Then why doesn't this alternative exist? If there is a league that can be both profitable enough for someone to invest and pay players, where is it? There are no rules stating this other league can't exist ... why hasn't the market created this better (from both the fan and the player perspective) product?

[Mufflers]

Why do the non-revenue programs even exist beyond needing to comply with Title IX?  I never saw a direct benefit from having a golf team or track team when I was a student.  From an individual school standpoint, I understand the need for a well rounded sports program, but I don't understand why colleges as a whole operating unprofitable teams.  Wouldn't the money be better spent being poured back into the universities?

[MUBurrow]

Then why doesn't this alternative exist? If there is a league that can be both profitable enough for someone to invest and pay players, where is it? There are no rules stating this other league can't exist ... why hasn't the market created this better (from both the fan and the player perspective) product?

Seriously? Because the NCAA is doing it with institutional advantages any other market player could only dream of.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why do the non-revenue programs even exist beyond needing to comply with Title IX?  I never saw a direct benefit from having a golf team or track team when I was a student.  From an individual school standpoint, I understand the need for a well rounded sports program, but I don't understand why colleges as a whole operating unprofitable teams.  Wouldn't the money be better spent being poured back into the universities?

You could say that about anything....the art school major with a scholarship, the violin player in the music school, the linguist scholarship student, and on and on. 

Let's also not forget that about 98% of our country's Olympic medals are won by athletes that participated in collegiate sports...Olympic collegiate sports.

[MUBurrow]

You could say that about anything....the art school major with a scholarship, the violin player in the music school, the linguist scholarship student, and on and on. 

Let's also not forget that about 98% of our country's Olympic medals are won by athletes that participated in collegiate sports...Olympic collegiate sports.

well said. if we want to get into a philosophic debate about what sports schools "should" carry, revenue production shouldnt even factor in... unless we want to pay the players.

[nathanziarek]

Seriously? Because the NCAA is doing it with institutional advantages any other market player could only dream of.

Such as?

[MUBurrow]

Such as?

Compared to a pro league? They arent even comparable.  I'm not going to look up the exact percentages, but a massive amount of $$$ for NCAA sports comes from donations.  People donate their money to a fund such as the Blue and Gold fund, which in turn is used to reimburse players with scholarships and living expenses (at cost for the school) while the IRS subsidizes the whole thing by giving donors deductions.  Thats all BEFORE you even factor in the other indirect pathways that public state dollars have been funneled into athletic program expenses and facilities at public schools, which make up a ton of the higher profile programs.  

So already in that paragraph, a vast majority of most programs budgets have already been filled before you get into any of the areas of funding available for a typical pro league such as broadcasting rights, merchandise or ticket sales.  

[NavinRJohnson]

Cool, let's pay the players.  What team are you going to root for, since Marquette will no longer have a program?

This type of response demonstrates exactly whom Chicos (and others) are actually concerned about on this topic...themselves. They want their college basketball, and specifically Marquette basketball, and they want the system designed to give them that,whether it is "fair" to the players or not, and justify it by saying, "well they get a scholarship that most people would be happy with, therefore it should be good enough for them."

Believe me, I get it. I have willingly turned a blind eye to performance enhancing drugs, concussions, etc. in MLB and the NFL. I have come to the conclussion that they are all doing it, are aware of the risks, and I don't care anymore. I want my football and baseball, and if they want to kill themselves, so be it, I will continue to tune in and feed the beast because I want to.  Of course it isn't exactly the same thing, since they are paid professionals. unlike NCAA football and basketball players who are unpaid professionals.

[LCDutchman]

The treatment of athletes by the NCAA is similar to how the AAU acted in the 60s and 70s.  The NCAA gets everything and the players nothing.  giving money for travel home or for food or clothing may reduce the risk that players trade memorabilia for tatoos, etc.  Jay Bilas is money on this issue. 

[Tugg Speedman]

+1  AAU analogy is spot on

It not about getting what you need as determined by some higher up (free tuition, room and board) but about getting what you make.

Recall the famous story about Chris Webber.  During his sophomore year he was in an Ann Arbor Mall and saw his Jersey for sale for $80.  He could not afford his own Jersey.  The owner of the story saw him and asked him if he'd come in and sign a bunch as he thought he could sell them for $200 to $500.  Webber could not earn a dime off those signed Jerseys.  He says this incident helped him decide to leave early.

The NCAA makes a billions off the Tourney.  The schools makes billions more in total off all the TV deals.  Yet somehow they cannot give a kid $1,000/month for travel home, food, movie tickets and new clothes?

[Pakuni]

You do not have to pay, and you do not have to pay everyone, or all sports.  Just that you can if you want to.

Well, the federal government and its thingy called Title IX cares to disagree.

[ChicosBailBonds]

+1  AAU analogy is spot on

It not about getting what you need as determined by some higher up (free tuition, room and board) but about getting what you make.

Recall the famous story about Chris Webber.  During his sophomore year he was in an Ann Arbor Mall and saw his Jersey for sale for $80.  He could not afford his own Jersey.  The owner of the story saw him and asked him if he'd come in and sign a bunch as he thought he could sell them for $200 to $500.  Webber could not earn a dime off those signed Jerseys.  He says this incident helped him decide to leave early.

The NCAA makes a billions off the Tourney.  The schools makes billions more in total off all the TV deals.  Yet somehow they cannot give a kid $1,000/month for travel home, food, movie tickets and new clothes?

Truly, get a grip on reality.  There is a difference between "making" billions and profiting.  Look at a simple earnings and expense statement and get back to me on how they are making "billions".  They are not.

This will help to get you started.  

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/finances/ncaa+consolidated+financial+statements


http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Finances/Finances+Expenses

[slingkong]

Maybe a stripper or two...
or seven.

Cleaning the carpet after a stripper shits on it can be expensive. Especially seven strippers. Or so I've been led to believe....