Overtime tip and UConn no-basket

[WarriorDoc]

Great win, but the refs really screwed UConn there to start OT. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the refs lined the players up in the wrong direction, UConn won the tip and everyone thought there would be a goaltend called on the shot attempt.  Seems like it was the refs fault and we ended up with a free possession.

[brewcity77]

From what the announcers said, the refs didn't line the players up, they just took the court and ended up on the wrong side. UConn got screwed, but to be fair, Jamil slapped the ball into the backboard and it should have been a block, not a goaltend, so all's fair.

[chapman]

Well, at least they didn't go as far as to give us the points for them putting the ball in our goal.

The make-up calls, which happened right in a row: Vander was fouled on his made three, Boatwright was both out of control and pushed off on Cadougan but got a blocking call, and UConn was blatantly over the back on the following missed free throw.  We'll call it even.

[NickelDimer]

I think the refs more than made up for it in OT.  Some terrible calls (Napier trucking Jr over) and non-calls (Wolf with a blatant over the back).

[mu89]

negated by that awful sequence towards the end with the forearm push and the missed over-the-back call. but yes, UCONN definitely got screwed with that debacle.

[GGGG]

From what the announcers said, the refs didn't line the players up, they just took the court and ended up on the wrong side. UConn got screwed, but to be fair, Jamil slapped the ball into the backboard and it should have been a block, not a goaltend, so all's fair.

It was on the way down...the goaltend call was a good one.

[TJ]

Well, at least they didn't go as far as to give us the points for them putting the ball in our goal.

The make-up calls, which happened right in a row: Vander was fouled on his made three, Boatwright was both out of control and pushed off on Cadougan but got a blocking call, and UConn was blatantly over the back on the following missed free throw.  We'll call it even.

Not to complain about the refs in a win, but this.  The foul on Cadougan was egregious.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Great win, but the refs really screwed UConn there to start OT. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the refs lined the players up in the wrong direction, UConn won the tip and everyone thought there would be a goaltend called on the shot attempt.  Seems like it was the refs fault and we ended up with a free possession.

Rule 5, Section 1, Article 3

Section 1. Scoring
Art. 1. A goal from the field other than from beyond the three-point line shall
count two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown, tapped or
directed.
Art. 2. A successful try from beyond the three-point line shall count three points
for the team when the ball is thrown or directed into its basket.
a. When a player scores a field goal in the opponent's basket, it shall count
two points for the opponent regardless of the location on the playing court
from where it was released. Such a field goal shall not be credited to a
player in the scorebook but shall be indicated with a footnote.
Art. 3. When the official(s) permits a team to go in the wrong direction, and when
the error is discovered, all activity and time consumed shall count as though each
team had gone in the proper direction. Play shall be resumed with each team
going in the proper direction.

Definitely got it wrong.  http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/BR13.pdf

[Blackhat]

Rule 5, Section 1, Article 3

Section 1. Scoring
Art. 1. A goal from the field other than from beyond the three-point line shall
count two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown, tapped or
directed.
Art. 2. A successful try from beyond the three-point line shall count three points
for the team when the ball is thrown or directed into its basket.
a. When a player scores a field goal in the opponent's basket, it shall count
two points for the opponent regardless of the location on the playing court
from where it was released. Such a field goal shall not be credited to a
player in the scorebook but shall be indicated with a footnote.
Art. 3. When the official(s) permits a team to go in the wrong direction, and when
the error is discovered, all activity and time consumed shall count as though each
team had gone in the proper direction. Play shall be resumed with each team
going in the proper direction.

Definitely got it wrong.  http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/BR13.pdf

Wow.

But hey, I'll take it anyway I can get it with this group.

[forgetful]

Except that it is also a rule that you cannot goal tend a shot on the wrong basket, so you have two conflicting rules.  Which one supersedes the other?

edit:  Also they were awarded the possession arrow, so even if they got those 2 pts, they wouldn't have gotten the next points after the jump ball.

[cheebs09]

Except that it is also a rule that you cannot goal tend a shot on the wrong basket, so you have two conflicting rules.  Which one supersedes the other?

edit:  Also they were awarded the possession arrow, so even if they got those 2 pts, they wouldn't have gotten the next points after the jump ball.

I would interpret that they were going the "correct" way since that's how they were lined up, based on that rule.

I think they got the arrow because the jump ball arrow was used to award possession after the mix-up. Not sure if that's correct, but that was the reasoning I saw on twitter.

[chapman]

They discovered the teams were going the wrong way after the missed shot but before the goaltend.

[AZWarrior]

I'll bet the UConn boards have some hot discussions going on this topic.  

Just a hunch.  

[forgetful]

I would interpret that they were going the "correct" way since that's how they were lined up, based on that rule.

I think they got the arrow because the jump ball arrow was used to award possession after the mix-up. Not sure if that's correct, but that was the reasoning I saw on twitter.

Giving them the possession arrow after the mix-up would also have been an incorrect call.  Technically it was not a shot attempt, therefore no goal-tending, but rather a steal.  Inadvertent whistle would have awarded the ball to Marquette out of bounds and still retain the possession arrow.

[GGGG]

Except that it is also a rule that you cannot goal tend a shot on the wrong basket, so you have two conflicting rules.  Which one supersedes the other?

No you are misreading what Chicos pointed out.

What the rule means is that the UConn goaltended basket should have counted because it would have "as though it would have been going in the proper direction." Then when they found out the mistake, they should have walked to the other side of the court and had Marquette inbound the ball heading in the proper direction.

[forgetful]

No you are misreading what Chicos pointed out.

What the rule means is that the UConn goaltended basket should have counted because it would have "as though it would have been going in the proper direction." Then when they found out the mistake, they should have walked to the other side of the court and had Marquette inbound the ball heading in the proper direction.

I understand that and if the basket had gone in that would be fine, but it didn't it was called a goaltend at which point you then have two different conflicting rules.

Regardless, we would have retained possession and 2 points to UCONN.  The next jump ball that went to UCONN resulted in points.  Those points would not have been awarded, thus it is a push.

[GGGG]

I understand that and if the basket had gone in that would be fine, but it didn't it was called a goaltend at which point you then have two different conflicting rules.

No...I don't think you understand.

Everything that occurs up until that point, happens AS IF everything was going correctly.  So if UConn would have simply made the basket, it would have been UConn's basket...not Marquette's.  So the goaltend should have counted.  There is no conflicting rule.

[forgetful]

No...I don't think you understand.

Everything that occurs up until that point, happens AS IF everything was going correctly.  So if UConn would have simply made the basket, it would have been UConn's basket...not Marquette's.  So the goaltend should have counted.  There is no conflicting rule.

Thats fine.  Then possession arrow stays with Marquette and UCONN doesn't get 2 points later.  Still has no affect on the game.

Edit:  Also for that matter it is possible that one of the refs realized things were wrong and blew the whistle not for a goal tend, but to correct the going the wrong direction.  At that point they have to conference and determine what to do.

[AZWarrior]

No...I don't think you understand.

Everything that occurs up until that point, happens AS IF everything was going correctly.  So if UConn would have simply made the basket, it would have been UConn's basket...not Marquette's.  So the goaltend should have counted.  There is no conflicting rule.

Which is confirmed via a Jim M tweet:  Jim McIlvaine ‏@JimMcIlvaine

Karl Hess just made a statement that everything was done correctly, except UConn should've been awarded the basket

[GGGG]

Thats fine.  Then possession arrow stays with Marquette and UCONN doesn't get 2 points later.  Still has no affect on the game.

You are making the assumption that everything that happens from that point on is the same.  Which I don't think is a good assumption to make.  I don't think you can simply say it had "no affect" on the game. 

[BallBoy]

I understand that and if the basket had gone in that would be fine, but it didn't it was called a goaltend at which point you then have two different conflicting rules.

Regardless, we would have retained possession and 2 points to UCONN.  The next jump ball that went to UCONN resulted in points.  Those points would not have been awarded, thus it is a push.

Since they were lined up incorrectly then it was considered their basket, hence it was goal tending.  Once they discovered they were going the wrong way, everything counts as called...it was a goaltend. The rule book specifically calls out this situation and how to handle it.  There is no conflict.

[Kikito MU89]

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/01/referees-allow-uconn-to-go-to-the-wrong-basket-in-overtime/related/

[nathanziarek]

Art. 2. A successful try from beyond the three-point line shall count three points
for the team when the ball is thrown or directed into its basket.
a. When a player scores a field goal in the opponent's basket, it shall count
two points for the opponent regardless of the location on the playing court
from where it was released. Such a field goal shall not be credited to a
player in the scorebook but shall be indicated with a footnote.
Art. 3. When the official(s) permits a team to go in the wrong direction, and when
the error is discovered, all activity and time consumed shall count as though each
team had gone in the proper direction. Play shall be resumed with each team

I just don't get how you go from article 2 to 3. At what point does an errant shot at the opponents basket become the officials "permitting" the play vs counting as two points for the opponent?

[GGGG]

I just don't get how you go from article 2 to 3. At what point does an errant shot at the opponents basket become the officials "permitting" the play vs counting as two points for the opponent?

Simple.  When they line them up wrong at the beginning of the overtime.

[forgetful]

You are making the assumption that everything that happens from that point on is the same.  Which I don't think is a good assumption to make.  I don't think you can simply say it had "no affect" on the game.  

Seriously.  Points wise it averaged out.  Based on your rationale it is possible that if UCONN did get those 2 points they would have became over confident and not have scored another bucket.  

The fact of the matter was, they screwed up on the points and screwed up on the jump ball flip.  They also screwed up on numerous other calls in the game.

The important thing is Junior carried the team again, people rag on him but as Buzz says he is the single most important guy on the team.