Do It Right Because.....

[dgies9156]

Another trip down the history books to fuel the debate on the form the new Catholic 7 will take.

Until now, the most important decision Marquette ever made was in 1977, when the university decided who would replace Al McGuire as men's head basketball coach. We could have done the "feel good" thing and hire Hank. He'd been loyal to Al and to the University. He was a great guy and a fine man. He was Al's sidekick for more than a decade and a candidate for head basketball coach in 1964, who was passed over for Al.

Or, we could have done the cold, corporate thing. We were coming off a national championship. We could have launched a national search and had any coach in the country not named Bob Knight, Ray Meyer or Dean Smith. We could have continued our winning ways into the 1980s, ensured we had those NBA prospects who ended up at DePaul and probably had a few more NCAA Championship banners hanging.

We did the loyal thing.

Our challenge today is similar. We could do the "loyal" thing and advocate bringing back our MCC foes, Dayton and St. Louis or MVC opponent Creighton. They would be good competitors and probably make the tournament from time to time. It would be a cheap add because all are close-by and we could justify it by saying "we're saving on airfare," or, "it's a long way to Spokane and Richmond and there just are not a lot of flights between Milwaukee and these cities." But if St. Louis, Dayton and perhaps Creighton were on the same plain as Georgetown, Villanova and us, my guess is they would have been playing in the Big East, or some other major conference, a long time ago.

If you accept this argument, we should start a conference with Loyola, DePaul, St. Louis, Creighton, Detroit Mercy, Dayton, Xavier and us. Save a lot on travel and you could bus to most of these places. And, we've played most of them for years!

Or, we could advocate doing the right thing and find 11 teams to join us people want to watch. We can advocate getting teams that can fill an arena night after night with 14,000 to 19,000 screaming fans. Teams that can play us to the last minute -- and of course lose -- but would be worthy of playing a Top 10 team because they themselves are a legitimate Top 10 to Top 25 team. Teams that can get people off their butts night after night and have them drive to the Bradley Center -- even if it means driving from Madison or Chicago.  If that means bringing Gonzaga, VCU, Butler and Xavier in -- or any other combination of teams, so be it. DO IT.

To do anything other than the "right" thing would be to re-start the clock on the 1980s in Marquette basketball. Let's get down on our knees at Gesu and pray that never happens again!

[keefe]

Until now, the most important decision Marquette ever made was in 1977, when the university decided who would replace Al McGuire as men's head basketball coach. We could have done the "feel good" thing and hire Hank. He'd been loyal to Al and to the University. He was a great guy and a fine man. He was Al's sidekick for more than a decade and a candidate for head basketball coach in 1964, who was passed over for Al.

Or, we could have done the cold, corporate thing. We were coming off a national championship. We could have launched a national search and had any coach in the country not named Bob Knight, Ray Meyer or Dean Smith. We could have continued our winning ways into the 1980s, ensured we had those NBA prospects who ended up at DePaul and probably had a few more NCAA Championship banners hanging.

Denny Crum wanted to come to Marquette. Pity. Hank was a gentleman but he was no Denny Crum.

[MarquetteDano]

Why are we pretending everyone is so far away from one another on this topic?  You just stated Xavier and Butler, which no one would disagree with on this board.

That makes nine teams.  Presuming that a good media contract includes twelve teams the next three are basically a selection of Gonzaga, Saint Louis, Dayton, VCU, Richmond, Creighton, and a few others.

That's a selection of three from about seven or so teams.  You would think that some are suggesting Prairie View A&M and some North Carolina in terms of how far away these teams are.

[dgies9156]

Why are we pretending everyone is so far away from one another on this topic?  You just stated Xavier and Butler, which no one would disagree with on this board.

That makes nine teams.  Presuming that a good media contract includes twelve teams the next three are basically a selection of Gonzaga, Saint Louis, Dayton, VCU, Richmond, Creighton, and a few others.

That's a selection of three from about seven or so teams.  You would think that some are suggesting Prairie View A&M and some North Carolina in terms of how far away these teams are.

Dano -- it's like this. I'm not an advocate of the Hiroshima theory advocated on this board, but I am afraid that we'll do something in the name of being cost efficient or because of long-term loyalties. As my post pointed out, we've done it before. I'm not totally convinced that some bean counter or some Jesuit loyalist won't do it again.

Gonzaga or Dayton? If there is any debate ongoing, I'm surprised the C-7 is even discussing this. To do anything other than Gonzaga would invite a certain B-29 to take off for Milwaukee and the next thing you'll know, we'll be seeking the next Bob Dukiet playing piano and promising that a first choice may not be the best choice. It's akin to the Big East asking whether to invite Syracuse or Slippery Rock 30 plus years ago!

[🏀]

When were any of those shifty schools mentioned?

[MarquetteDano]

Dano -- it's like this. I'm not an advocate of the Hiroshima theory advocated on this board, but I am afraid that we'll do something in the name of being cost efficient or because of long-term loyalties. As my post pointed out, we've done it before. I'm not totally convinced that some bean counter or some Jesuit loyalist won't do it again.

Gonzaga or Dayton? If there is any debate ongoing, I'm surprised the C-7 is even discussing this. To do anything other than Gonzaga would invite a certain B-29 to take off for Milwaukee and the next thing you'll know, we'll be seeking the next Bob Dukiet playing piano and promising that a first choice may not be the best choice. It's akin to the Big East asking whether to invite Syracuse or Slippery Rock 30 plus years ago!

I can't disagree with you as I would like Gonzaga to be team #10.  I don't know what the powers that be are using for their criteria 100% though.  And they are  privy to more info than me.  Once you get to teams #11 & #12 however things are a lot closer than people make them out to be.

I would probably pick Creighton next but I can see arguments for other teams.  That is all I am saying.

[RubyWiscy]

Hank was a great coach.  There was a lot more going on at the time that caused the team to decline.  Budgits were increasing, competition stepping up, TV contracts, growth of the NCAA, conference affiliations, etc.  Same story even more pronounced with Rick. Great coach, but could not get it done at the same level as Al at MU.  Heck, even Al would have had trouble maintaining his success over the next decade if he stayed. Maybe that's why he retired when he did.

Fact is, the school was just not keeping up with the changing landscape of college basketball.  Needed better facilities, more money spent on the team, higher wages for assistants, conference affiliation, etc.  The tone Hank and Rick had to deal with was, "Al did it with this, why can't you?"  I don't think the administration really got it until O'Neill came along and crammed it down everyone's throats.

[MU82]

I like Gonzaga for the league if at all possible. If we don't get Gonzaga, it won't consign us to mediocrity, but getting them would be a boon, IMHO.

As for our past coaches, Hank obviously was a loyalty pick. He was an OK floor coach; not great, not bad. Recruiting fell off -- one year, Terrell Schlundt was our only signee, for cripe's sake -- but that was to be expected a little. It also wasn't only on him, as Majerus was the lead recruiter.

Wisconsin tried to hire Majerus but he brokered a deal to stay at Marquette as long as Hank stepped down within a year. When he got the job, Rick didn't know how to handle going from being the fun assistant to being the bad-cop head coach. All the players loved him as the roly-poly jokester assistant but many didn't like him when he became the disciplinarian. The demands of being at the alma mater also crushed him. Years later, he said he needed to step away, and the perspective he gained during his time as Don Nelson's assistant with the Bucks really made him love basketball again and turned him into the great head coach he became with Ball State and Utah.

Agree with Ruby that MU's facilities and commitment were behind the times and helped undermine both Hank and Rick, as well as the coaches who followed until our program stepped into the correct century.

[jsglow]

Hank was a great coach.  There was a lot more going on at the time that caused the team to decline.  Budgits were increasing, competition stepping up, TV contracts, growth of the NCAA, conference affiliations, etc.  Same story even more pronounced with Rick. Great coach, but could not get it done at the same level as Al at MU.  Heck, even Al would have had trouble maintaining his success over the next decade if he stayed. Maybe that's why he retired when he did.

Fact is, the school was just not keeping up with the changing landscape of college basketball.  Needed better facilities, more money spent on the team, higher wages for assistants, conference affiliation, etc.  The tone Hank and Rick had to deal with was, "Al did it with this, why can't you?"  I don't think the administration really got it until O'Neill came along and crammed it down everyone's throats.

On another thread I commented that Donna Shalala was instrumental in turning UW athletics. In Marquette's case, Fr. Diulio was key to our early resurgence following Fr. Raynor's retirement.  Fr. Wild, as many of you know, then elevated expectations to the level we enjoy today.  I like to think that Bob just had to be a CYO coach back in his youth reaching the hearts and minds of young kids in ways you can't during class time.

[dgies9156]

Hank was a great coach.  There was a lot more going on at the time that caused the team to decline.  Budgets were increasing, competition stepping up, TV contracts, growth of the NCAA, conference affiliations, etc.  Same story even more pronounced with Rick. Great coach, but could not get it done at the same level as Al at MU.  Heck, even Al would have had trouble maintaining his success over the next decade if he stayed. Maybe that's why he retired when he did.

Fact is, the school was just not keeping up with the changing landscape of college basketball.  Needed better facilities, more money spent on the team, higher wages for assistants, conference affiliation, etc.  The tone Hank and Rick had to deal with was, "Al did it with this, why can't you?"  I don't think the administration really got it until O'Neill came along and crammed it down everyone's throats.

Most of this, I agree with you. Which is why I raised the point I did. I'm sure more than a few MU officials thought, "gee, if Al can do it on the cheap, so can you..." It wasn't a very businesslike approach to Marquette's one prime asset and one of the reasons why I thought things went downhill.

We have to break the mold and do what's best. It may hurt but if we don't look forward carefully, cautiously and with an eye toward the day when we again hoist a national championship banner at the Bradley Center,  we'll be a very good university with great facilities and a very mediocre mid-major basketball team.

By the way, Al would have found a way to keep the merry-go-round working. And, Hank was head coach, so he was ultimately responsible for the lack of recruiting. For that reason, he was a good bench coach but a very mid-major head coach. I loved him as a person, but there was a reason we went with Al in 1964 instead of Hank.

[muwarrior69]

Yes we have to do the right thing. The C7 with Gonzaga, X,  and Butler would give the league High major status that would compete with the best in the "super conferences". ...and we have to do all we can to make sure Mrs. Buzz does not want to leave MU.

[LloydMooresLegs]

Hank was a great coach.  ...

No.  He was not a great coach. 

Nostalgia and his important part in the great teams of the 1970s mislead us, I think.

He was a very good assistant; by most accounts, he was a great man; but he was an average head coach at best.  The record speaks for itself, even in a time of transition.  The team's record declined every year from his takeover, and he left the cupboard bare with his last two recruiting classes (Class of '86: Kerry Trotter, Vic Lazaretti, Lloyd Moore [OK, the exeception to prove the rule] and Paul Newman; Class of '87:  Herb Harrison, John Sichterman; Richard McCormick; Robert Hall; Tom Copa; Willie Harris).  One very good player (Trotter) and one solid player (Copa) in two years.
 

[Galway Eagle]

I could be wrong, but my Dad told me around the time Hank took over is when the area around MU began to get pretty seedy.  Perhaps that effected recruiting?  Also I think he was a pretty good coach I mean 5 NCAAs (1 sweet 16) out of 6 years is pretty good.  Better record than Buzz actually. 

[LloydMooresLegs]

It certainly was seedy from 82 to 86, and looked like it had been for quite some time. 

And 5 out of 6 NCAAs is great - esp w 32 team field.  But again, those teams trended downward and that only continued with horrible recruiting classes that he left.

[bilsu]

No.  He was not a great coach. 

Nostalgia and his important part in the great teams of the 1970s mislead us, I think.

He was a very good assistant; by most accounts, he was a great man; but he was an average head coach at best.  The record speaks for itself, even in a time of transition.  The team's record declined every year from his takeover, and he left the cupboard bare with his last two recruiting classes (Class of '86: Kerry Trotter, Vic Lazaretti, Lloyd Moore [OK, the exeception to prove the rule] and Paul Newman; Class of '87:  Herb Harrison, John Sichterman; Richard McCormick; Robert Hall; Tom Copa; Willie Harris).  One very good player (Trotter) and one solid player (Copa) in two years.
 

You are so wrong here. He has the second highest winning percentage of any coach at MU. The only year he did not win 20 games was the year Dean Marquardt (starting center) almost died in a car accident just before the start of school. They went 18-9 and to NIT that year. Without the injury to Marquardt they would of easily won 20 games and made the NCAA tournament. In my opinion Raymond's career was hampered by three things. First following Al McGuire, which would of hurt whoever the next coach was. Second losing to Miami of Ohio when Whitehead got tossed from the game, which I believe also hurt him on the recruiting trail. We would not have lost that game, if Whitehead is not thrown out. Lastly, when he finally had the team built with his own talent he turned it over to Majerus who took us to three straight NIT's before bailing on us resulting in the Dukiet era. By memory he recruited Rivers, Downing, Johnson, Johnson, Trotter and Lloyd Moore who were all top 30 players going into their senior year of high school according to my Street & Smith's magazines.

[dgies9156]

No.  He was not a great coach. 

Nostalgia and his important part in the great teams of the 1970s mislead us, I think.

He was a very good assistant; by most accounts, he was a great man; but he was an average head coach at best.  The record speaks for itself, even in a time of transition.  The team's record declined every year from his takeover, and he left the cupboard bare with his last two recruiting classes (Class of '86: Kerry Trotter, Vic Lazaretti, Lloyd Moore [OK, the exeception to prove the rule] and Paul Newman; Class of '87:  Herb Harrison, John Sichterman; Richard McCormick; Robert Hall; Tom Copa; Willie Harris).  One very good player (Trotter) and one solid player (Copa) in two years.
 

We were national champions in 1977! We could have had anyone.

If you set your bar low enough, everyone is a success. But if you benchmark against the best -- as in 1977 or 2003 -- just getting to the tournament isn't enough. Buzz knows that too and I think the 2013-2014 recuriting class, if it works out as we think it will and the momentum sustained, will be the turning point.

One other way to look at Hank is to ask, "how many of his players became pros?" As best I can tell, one. Glenn Rivers.

[LloydMooresLegs]

You are so wrong here. He has the second highest winning percentage of any coach at MU. The only year he did not win 20 games was the year Dean Marquardt (starting center) almost died in a car accident just before the start of school. They went 18-9 and to NIT that year. Without the injury to Marquardt they would of easily won 20 games and made the NCAA tournament. In my opinion Raymond's career was hampered by three things. First following Al McGuire, which would of hurt whoever the next coach was. Second losing to Miami of Ohio when Whitehead got tossed from the game, which I believe also hurt him on the recruiting trail. We would not have lost that game, if Whitehead is not thrown out. Lastly, when he finally had the team built with his own talent he turned it over to Majerus who took us to three straight NIT's before bailing on us resulting in the Dukiet era. By memory he recruited Rivers, Downing, Johnson, Johnson, Trotter and Lloyd Moore who were all top 30 players going into their senior year of high school according to my Street & Smith's magazines.

Respectfully disagree.  Record was worse every year and if the team that he left for majesty's was what he had wanted to build it was good that he left when he did. 

[dgies9156]

You are so wrong here.... Second losing to Miami of Ohio when Whitehead got tossed from the game, which I believe also hurt him on the recruiting trail. We would not have lost that game, if Whitehead is not thrown out.

I agree that everything bad that happened to us started at this game in March 1978. But, are you kidding me?

Marquette never should have allowed Miami of Ohio to be that close. Period. That's like losing to UW-GB. No way, no how should a team like Marquette have let Miami get within 20 points of us that late in the game. We were defending national champions. They were an also-ran.

That was a coaching breakdown, dude, and the whole world knew it. To still be blaming the referees 34 years later reaks of sour grapes.

Oh and as for Walter Downing. We had him, lost him to DePaul and had him transfer back.

[bilsu]

We were national champions in 1977! We could have had anyone.

If you set your bar low enough, everyone is a success. But if you benchmark against the best -- as in 1977 or 2003 -- just getting to the tournament isn't enough. Buzz knows that too and I think the 2013-2014 recuriting class, if it works out as we think it will and the momentum sustained, will be the turning point.

One other way to look at Hank is to ask, "how many of his players became pros?" As best I can tell, one. Glenn Rivers.

There are several more pro teams now and today's NBA rosters are bigger.

[bilsu]

I agree that everything bad that happened to us started at this game in March 1978. But, are you kidding me?

Marquette never should have allowed Miami of Ohio to be that close. Period. That's like losing to UW-GB. No way, no how should a team like Marquette have let Miami get within 20 points of us that late in the game. We were defending national champions. They were an also-ran.

That was a coaching breakdown, dude, and the whole world knew it. To still be blaming the referees 34 years later reaks of sour grapes.

We were up 10 when he got thrown out. I do believe the technical Raymond's got protesting Whitehead being tossed from the game was a huge mistake by Raymonds. Without the technical the game probably does not go into overtime and we win. I am not blaming the refs as I come to believe that it is just fate when some teams win. Like Butler hitting that shot to beat MU. Butler was destined to win that game. The same way with Crowder hitting the three against Washington the year before. McGuire winning the title in 1977 was also destiny.

[leever]

I could be wrong, but my Dad told me around the time Hank took over is when the area around MU began to get pretty seedy.  Perhaps that effected recruiting?  Also I think he was a pretty good coach I mean 5 NCAAs (1 sweet 16) out of 6 years is pretty good.  Better record than Buzz actually. 

The area around Marquette was seedy well before Hank took over.

And that's not including the bars, which were seedy - in a good way.

[GGGG]

I am not blaming the refs as I come to believe that it is just fate when some teams win. Like Butler hitting that shot to beat MU. Butler was destined to win that game. The same way with Crowder hitting the three against Washington the year before. McGuire winning the title in 1977 was also destiny.

What?  How do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this?

None of the above had anything to do with "fate" or "destiny."  It had everything to do with coaches and players performing relatively better on one team when compared to the other.  Nothing mystical about it.

[real chili 83]

John Wooden used to call Hank for advice.

 John efin Wooden.

[LloydMooresLegs]

Wooden knew he was a great assistant coach.

[Goose]

Guys,

First of all Hank taken over was almost four decades. Anyone old enough to be around the program back then knows it was a poor decision to hire Hank. I had utmost respect for Hank as a person, but he was out of his league with the program Al built. Everyone talks about Hank and the X's and O's which is great. Al McGuire built the program and when Al left was a downward spiral from day one. You could never overstate what Al meant to MU, even 35 years after he left. In Hank's defense it would have been very difficult for anyone to keep us at the level took us to.

We cannot change the past and hopefully LW &Co. know what they are doing. We have Allie McGuire and Doc on the BOT and hopefully they are vested in the process. This is without a doubt a big crossroads in program's history.