This Board Is Not Melting Down After UWGB Loss, Have We All Really Given Up

[muwarrior69]

I hope you are right, but I have some considerable doubts right now.  Two games now where we can't break 50 points.  That's Kevin O'Neilesque.  

We're 114th in the nation in scoring and 137th in rebounding.  There are moments we'll look pretty good, but it's hard for me to pinpoint a player that you can count on to be there every game or even 80%.  Was hoping that was Vander, maybe it still is.  Guards, in my view, are what drives success in college basketball and we don't have consistently good guards.  When those guys play well, we do pretty well.  Unfortunately inconsistent.  0-2 on the road and 2-3 overall away from the BC might be something to keep an eye on as well.

The SELA game still bothers me.  I couldn't believe how much we struggled in that game.  They are currently sitting at 1-8.   That was a 2 point game with 4 minutes to go.

LSU is 7-1, but not exactly killer schedule.  Need to win that game or the concern becomes much more real.

Agree. We don't have that go to guy Buzz always seems to have had. Next few games will tell us what kind of season will have. The guy I am most disappointed in is Jamil.

[The Equalizer]

What poster on this board famously said that?  This poster also thought Buzz was about the worst decision the administration could have possibly made, especially since no one else was interviewed for the job.

Will post the answer later if no one gets it.

With all due respect, the poster never said Buzz was about the worst decision the administration could have possibly made.  He said the decision was rushed and other options should have been explored, as Buzz would always have been available weeks later as a fallback. The poster also related our prior history with rushed coaching decisions (Bob Dukiet, Mike Deane).  The point was well taken, and its probably more a factor of luck than Cottingham's skill as AD that Buzz has worked out well.

The five year comment in its proper context was a common sense statment that you need to see what a new coach does with his own recruits before you make definitive statement that it was or wasn't a good hire.  Anyone remember Matt Doherty after his 23-7 first season at UNC?  Works the other way as well--Kevin O'Neill wasn't a bad hire even after he went 11-18 in 1991.  

[Tugg Speedman]

Chico's or Hoop?

Winner!!!

And you win again by properly using "or"

Well done sir!

[nyg]

http://ucla.scout.com/2/1250943.html

Chico's, looks like Ben is not doing well out there.  Now that would be a big opening.

[JD]

Winner!!!

And you win again by properly using "or"

Well done sir!

Awesome, I'm glad i won this contest instead of the Trans Siberian Orchestra tickets today they were giving away at work.

[Earl Tatum]

YES - No aggressiveness or take charge guy.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Remember that Cottingham only interviewed Buzz for the job.  This board not only thought Buzz was a bad idea, they thought it was a suicidally bad idea.  They were hoping it would only get as bad as the dark days of Dukiet, and not worse.

Then Bob Hurley Sr, engineered Ty Taylor to Kansas and rebuffed Buzz and it was a guarantee we were headed back the Dukiet days.

Did not quite work out that way.

I think you need to go back to the time machine and read what people said.  Many people thought the hire was too quick for someone unproven, that he could be had later. I don't recall many, or even a few that said it was a bad idea or a suicidally bad idea (insert similar descriptions).  Most said he was a good recruiter and were hoping he could keep things going.  I think you are painting with a way broad brush on this one.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I was always a 5 year guy.

I'm not afraid to admit that.

Me too, and still am.    I'd rather someone proves it over the long haul, with his players, etc.  Buzz has done that. I'll keep the five year rule because too many coaches (and players) come out blazing on fire only to fizzle by year five. 

Rex Ryan....God in his first few years...may not make it to year five.  Just the latest.  Happens all too often....he's this week's version but there are many that crop up in all sports every year.  Gangbuster turned to WTF happened.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Winner!!!

And you win again by properly using "or"

Well done sir!

You are just flat out wrong.  Pull up something where I said we were going back to the Dukiet days and were going to suck.  It should be easy for you to find since I so famously said it.....I'll be waiting.  You're absolutely wrong and fortunately there is a great search engine here that will prove it.  You should go back to predicting the ACC is going to die any day now.

[Blackhat]

Buzz Williams had a great reputation among coaches and insiders that most MU fans didn't know at the time.   His successful traits, especially his epic work ethic, was available to Cottingham.   Heard about him cause I had some friends at A&M so I was his biggest backer during the "process".  

The "process"  argument was a joke because posters had no idea what steps were followed in making the decision (and can you void some of the steps when you know you have the right guy? which he was right).  I'm glad it was a one (or two) man choice though and not done by committee, could've ended up with someone like Keno Davis.  


If Larry runs off Buzz (I kid, I kid)  I hope he's the only one making the final call on the next coach.

[ChicosBailBonds]

http://ucla.scout.com/2/1250943.html

Chico's, looks like Ben is not doing well out there.  Now that would be a big opening.

Yes, a lot of "buzz" around it today.  UCLA has their own issues with money and how much they can pay a government employee.  It's definitely a big opening from a tradition perspective, it also may not be the best fit for someone like Buzz.  Academic standards are higher, JUCOs almost unheard of (severely frowned upon by the alums), and the religious stuff won't fly with about half the crowd out here. 

From a basketball point of view, UCLA is boring to watch and many want a more up tempo style of play.  Ben preaches defense first and foremost which may not be exciting enough for the L.A. crowd and the high school scene out here.  Attendance is down, they just renovated Pauley Pavillion and they are off to a sluggish start again.  There is also a lot of rumbling about how Shabazz and Anderson landed here at UCLA.  This is a very conservative administration when it comes to that.

We'll see how it plays out.  Jamie Dixon would be on the list, though some would say that's just Ben jr.  The typical other names like Mark Few, Brad Stevens, etc, etc are mentioned often out here.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Buzz was a spectacular hire and I've never been happier to be so wrong.

With that said, as far as this team is concerned, if you'd all just listen to me you wouldn't be surprised. Wilson has been a better player than Junior since he stepped on campus. Our best player is Jamil, but he's too passive to be effective. Unfortunately, our most assertive player is Blue and he possesses almost zero offensive ability unless the stars are aligned and his running floaters start miraculously coming off the glass at the exact right angle and finding their way through the hoop. Gardner has some ability, but no real athleticism. Thomas is terrified out there. Lockett is a poor man's Joe Chapman.

About the only guy I've been pleasantly surprised with has been Taylor.

Our heavy minutes should come from:

D Wilson
J Wilson
Anderson
Taylor
Blue/Mayo
Gardner

I said it last year.  I don't think Cadougan belongs on a high D1 floor. He's unathletic, overweight and not a particularly good game manager. We can't sit around waiting for him to have his one game in 10 when he plays well. The season is on the line. Get Wilson in there, play Anderson for his energy and maybe those two guys can light a fire under Jamil, Davante and the rest.

That was a bad, bad loss. In fact, I thought GB was so bad at the Bradley Center last year that Wardle could be fired...and he might be after this year.

[Sir Lawrence]

Buzz was a spectacular hire and I've never been happier to be so wrong.

With that said, as far as this team is concerned, if you'd all just listen to me you wouldn't be surprised. Wilson has been a better player than Junior since he stepped on campus. Our best player is Jamil, but he's too passive to be effective. Unfortunately, our most assertive player is Blue and he possesses almost zero offensive ability unless the stars are aligned and his running floaters start miraculously coming off the glass at the exact right angle and finding their way through the hoop. Gardner has some ability, but no real athleticism. Thomas is terrified out there. Lockett is a poor man's Joe Chapman.

About the only guy I've been pleasantly surprised with has been Taylor.

Our heavy minutes should come from:

D Wilson
J Wilson
Anderson
Taylor
Blue/Mayo
Gardner

I said it last year.  I don't think Cadougan belongs on a high D1 floor. He's unathletic, overweight and not a particularly good game manager. We can't sit around waiting for him to have his one game in 10 when he plays well. The season is on the line. Get Wilson in there, play Anderson for his energy and maybe those two guys can light a fire under Jamil, Davante and the rest.

That was a bad, bad loss. In fact, I thought GB was so bad at the Bradley Center last year that Wardle could be fired...and he might be after this year.

Excellent analysis.

[Blackhat]

Buzz was a spectacular hire and I've never been happier to be so wrong.

With that said, as far as this team is concerned, if you'd all just listen to me you wouldn't be surprised. Wilson has been a better player than Junior since he stepped on campus. Our best player is Jamil, but he's too passive to be effective. Unfortunately, our most assertive player is Blue and he possesses almost zero offensive ability unless the stars are aligned and his running floaters start miraculously coming off the glass at the exact right angle and finding their way through the hoop. Gardner has some ability, but no real athleticism. Thomas is terrified out there. Lockett is a poor man's Joe Chapman.

About the only guy I've been pleasantly surprised with has been Taylor.

Our heavy minutes should come from:

D Wilson
J Wilson
Anderson
Taylor
Blue/Mayo
Gardner

I said it last year.  I don't think Cadougan belongs on a high D1 floor. He's unathletic, overweight and not a particularly good game manager. We can't sit around waiting for him to have his one game in 10 when he plays well. The season is on the line. Get Wilson in there, play Anderson for his energy and maybe those two guys can light a fire under Jamil, Davante and the rest.

That was a bad, bad loss. In fact, I thought GB was so bad at the Bradley Center last year that Wardle could be fired...and he might be after this year.

I don't think they are collectively very talented at basketball especially in comparison to our teams in the past but this is overkill.

A poor man's Joe Chapman isn't playing D I basketball.

[JD]

Puerto Rico hit the nail on the head.

Derick is light years ahead of Junior this year.  Many make the arguement that "the offense runs better through Junior"  I have a question for those people, What offense?  Have you seen any this year?  When Derick came into the UWGB game late in the second half he was taking the ball to the rack and making things happen, Jamil had a nasty follow up dunk off a ball Derick missed.  Sure he might not have scored, but it was refreshing to see from the usual, Blue to Cadougan, back to Blue, back to Cadougan, ooh 10 seconds left on the shot clock, better run inside and get nowhere. I couldn't help but shake my head when Buzz subs Derick in for defense, then the very next posession takes him out and puts in Junior who did absolutely nothing offensively. 

For the people who say Junior makes the offense better, please give me an example this year other than his fluke second half game against Madison. That was his best game in 4 years here...  Junior is far too slow on defense, he's a liability, who looks like he's in quick sand as Horizon league guards run around him.  What do you think BEast guards are going to do?

When Marquette is spending the 2nd or 3rd most in the nation on their basketball team i think that's reason enough to go with the better player. Isn't Buzz a hypocite in a way? He says he's going to stay loyal to Junior, yet over recruits knowing someone will be left in the cold. (yes i know mayo might not be here, but if you have faith and loyalty shouldnt you know he will buckle down?)A lot of people put Vander down, but wasn't Cadougan a top 50 recruit as well?  If anybody should be critisized it's definitely Cadougan.

Next year can't come soon enough. Derick is going to be a stud.

[GGGG]

I'm not sure "stud" is the correct word.  He's going to be fine.  But he simply can't score.  For all the bitching you do about Junior, he is still a better shooter than Wilson.  He gets more point and more assists per minute than Wilson does as well.  Wilson's A/TO ratio is better, but not significantly so.

Right now they are getting about 25/15 minutes...should that even out more?  Perhaps.  But I think you are judging people against your expectations versus what they are actually doing out there.

[tower912]

Junior has not progressed like I would have hoped.   He is still better than DWilson.   Please name the last jump shot that DWilson has made in a game.   

[JD]

I'm not sure "stud" is the correct word.  He's going to be fine.  But he simply can't score.  For all the bitching you do about Junior, he is still a better shooter than Wilson.  He gets more point and more assists per minute than Wilson does as well.  Wilson's A/TO ratio is better, but not significantly so.

Right now they are getting about 25/15 minutes...should that even out more?  Perhaps.  But I think you are judging people against your expectations versus what they are actually doing out there.

He's a better shooter than Wilson?  Do you think that might be because Derick is subbed in basically to pick up Juniors inadequacies on the defensive end and then doesn't get an opportunity as much as Junior on offense?

This is non conference play, just wait until real competition begins...

Yeah, it's really great, Junior puts up maybe 8points on a good day, but gives up 15 or more not counting turnovers too.  Awesome.

[GGGG]

Junior has not progressed like I would have hoped.   He is still better than DWilson.   Please name the last jump shot that DWilson has made in a game.   

This is exactly right.  Again we are judging players against *expectations* and not *performance.*

He's a better shooter than Wilson? 

Yes.  Statistics don't lie.

Do you think that might be because Derick is subbed in basically to pick up Juniors inadequacies on the defensive end and then doesn't get an opportunity as much as Junior on offense?

No.  Wilson is a better defender, but being a better defender doesn't hamper his shooting.  So you are saying that if the minutes were reversed that somehow Wilson would become a better shooter?

[Tugg Speedman]

You are just flat out wrong.  Pull up something where I said we were going back to the Dukiet days and were going to suck.  It should be easy for you to find since I so famously said it.....I'll be waiting.  You're absolutely wrong and fortunately there is a great search engine here that will prove it.  You should go back to predicting the ACC is going to die any day now.

Chicos, I asked the question and within 5 minutes the answer was your name.  You were vocal that Buzz was a mistake and if you want to argue anal semantics about what exactly you said fine  .. you did not use the exact phrase "return to the worst days of Dukiet."  But the fact is ask anyone on this board who was most vocal against hiring Buzz, your name comes up first and immediately.  That is how you are remember, that is your legacy.  

Regarding the ACC, I said if one more school leaves the ACC it is going to blow up.  I did not say another school will leave, just if a school leaves it blows up.  I said the ACC was vulnerable to another school leaving as all the other power FB conferences make more money than the ACC and lots of ACC schools would love the chance to jump and make more money.  Yes, I stand by that, and in fact, its not even a hard call.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I'm not sure "stud" is the correct word.  He's going to be fine.  But he simply can't score.  For all the bitching you do about Junior, he is still a better shooter than Wilson.  He gets more point and more assists per minute than Wilson does as well.  Wilson's A/TO ratio is better, but not significantly so.

Right now they are getting about 25/15 minutes...should that even out more?  Perhaps.  But I think you are judging people against your expectations versus what they are actually doing out there.

Way too early to say this.  He's not supposed to be coming into the game to start launching shots.  His role is to facilitate for others and he plays that role well.  Is he better than Junior offensively?  Hard to say as he doesn't pursue his own offense to the degree that Junior has been forced to this year.  I for one would like to see him more aggressive offensively as it will make his primary role easier.  

[Dr. Blackheart]

This is non conference play, just wait until real competition begins...

Yeah, it's really great, Junior puts up maybe 8points on a good day, but gives up 15 or more not counting turnovers too.  Awesome.

Junior led the Big East last season in +|-... and was one of the top in the country.  To me, his problem with turnovers is against the zone as he rushes transition that isn't there or forces penetration that has been seamed up.  

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/stats/plus_minus_avg?games=1&conf=big-east&season=2011-2012&min=

[4everwarriors]

Yep, Wilson will be a stud and star on this team. Unfortunately, he's currently playin' at Dominican.

[JD]

Junior led the Big East last season in +|-... and was one of the top in the country.  To me, his problem with turnovers is against the zone as he rushes transition that isn't there or forces penetration that has been seamed up.  

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/stats/plus_minus_avg?games=1&conf=big-east&season=2011-2012&min=

Yes i get it, his turnover to assist ratio was good last year.  Does anybody here watch the games though?  Watch Junior on defense, all you have to do is take one big step to the left or right side of his body and you have him beat because he certainly cannot catch up or is quick enough to get back in front of the opposing player.  Sometimes you don't have stats to judge a person on his defensive capabilities but you just need to watch them play. 

What good does it do if you get about 5-7 assist but give up the amount of points he does?  That's not being very efficent.  Also consider this, who was shooting the ball for Junior last year? DJO and Jae also help make Juniors numbers, now when the team is on his shoulders we will really see the value.  I'm just saying for all the critisim Van gets, i don't think enough people look outside numbers and see his defensive flaws.  It must mean something if a sophomore is told by the head coach"you would start over Junior" if it wasn't for a loyalty thing. Call it expectations of mine or unrealistic idea, but i think a top 50 player should be doing a lot more as a senior.  Thats all im saying.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Junior led the Big East last season in +|-... and was one of the top in the country.  To me, his problem with turnovers is against the zone as he rushes transition that isn't there or forces penetration that has been seamed up.  

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/stats/plus_minus_avg?games=1&conf=big-east&season=2011-2012&min=

It's tough to beat a zone when you don't have shooters, and it's especially tough to beat a zone when you primary ballhander(s) can't shoot.

I like Junior, and i know he works his ass off, but he's not a good shooter, and that limits him quite a bit.