Ohio Media Markets Question

[🏀]

I'm a new poster, I just joined the board.  I grew up in Dayton and now live in Cincinnati.

I don't think CSU basketball is big in Cleveland due to the Cavs.  CSU is also in the Horizon League, so that is a bit of drawback.  In a similar way, I think Butler doesn't draw as well as they should, considering their recent success, because of the Pacers.

The Bucks aren't holding Marquette's attendance back.

[dayton flyers]

As far as the media markets in Ohio, it is:

--Cleveland/Akron/Canton/Youngstown sort of all in one.  I don't know as much about the Cleveland area.

--Columbus

--Toledo/maybe mix in Detroit some

--Dayton

--Cincinnati

--the southeastern portion of the state is pretty rural with no major cities

Dayton and Cincinnati pull for the Cincinnati Reds and Cincinnati Bengals.  There are some Cleveland Browns fans in Dayton and probably Cincinnati too.  There seem to be Browns fans all over the state.  Dayton has the Dayton Dragons, a minor league affiliate of the Reds.

Columbus is all Ohio State.  There are some Bengals and Reds fans in Columbus though.  Columbus has its own NHL team too, the Blue Jackets.

Toledo is probably all Ohio State.

I'm pretty sure the Cleveland area is all Ohio State.  Cavs/Indians/Browns

The southeast portion of the state is probably a mix between Cleveland/Cincinnati pro teams.

[jficke13]

Honestly, I think the Dayton area would deliver more tv viewers than either the Cincinnati area(Xavier fans)or the Indy area(Butler fans).  

I'm not disputing this (honestly I have no idea if it's true or false). However, all of this realignment business seems to be less about *viewers* and more about cable subscribers in a geographic area. That's why Rutgers football, which is no Michigan or Ohio St., gets the invite to the Big?. They are adding cable subscribers 1st, viewers 2nd.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm not disputing this (honestly I have no idea if it's true or false). However, all of this realignment business seems to be less about *viewers* and more about cable subscribers in a geographic area. That's why Rutgers football, which is no Michigan or Ohio St., gets the invite to the Big?. They are adding cable subscribers 1st, viewers 2nd.

Well, that's true because the Big Ten owns their own network (well, 51% of it).  So the dollars work on subscribers in core territories.

For other conferences, where they don't own the networks, it's a different play because a third party controls the rights (ESPN, SNY, MSG, NBC, or whomever).

[Skatastrophy]

I hope that Dayton is in the new conference.  Some of you guys hate them so much (for reasons I don't understand) that I'd be a shame to throw that away!  You're *supposed* to hate some teams in your conference

Bring on the Flyers!

[dayton flyers]

I'm not disputing this (honestly I have no idea if it's true or false). However, all of this realignment business seems to be less about *viewers* and more about cable subscribers in a geographic area. That's why Rutgers football, which is no Michigan or Ohio St., gets the invite to the Big?. They are adding cable subscribers 1st, viewers 2nd.

That's true, I can't dispute that.  Per Wikipedia, the Cincy metro area has 2.1 million people(27th in US), while the Dayton metro area has 845k people(62nd in US)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati,_Ohio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayton,_Ohio


SLU averages about 6,200/game I believe.

As far UD vs. SLU, from the DDN article I posted:


If the Catholic 7 want to expand their footprint and are concerned only about TV markets, then SLU probably wins out. If it's a comparison of basketball programs, UD is a no-brainer.

The Billikens made the NCAA tournament last year and won a game, but it was their first appearance since 2000. They've had two NIT berths in that span.

The Flyers have played in four NCAA tourneys and reached the NIT six times since 2000. They've never failed to finish in the top-35 nationally in attendance since UD Arena opened in 1969-70. And they play in a venue that's hosted more NCAA tourney games than any other arena in history.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I hope that Dayton is in the new conference.  Some of you guys hate them so much (for reasons I don't understand) that I'd be a shame to throw that away!  You're *supposed* to hate some teams in your conference

Bring on the Flyers!

OK, I'll solve this.

12 teams, two 6 team divisions.  One division called the McGuire division.  Another division called the Donoher division

McGuire Division
Marquette
DePaul
SLU
Creighton
Villanova
Butler


Donoher Division (or Carnesecca Division)
Xavier
Dayton
Georgetown
Seton Hall
Providence
St. John's


Ok.....world peace, gun control, AIDS next to solve, but only after we get through this Mayan issue in two days.

[dayton flyers]

The Bucks aren't holding Marquette's attendance back.

That's true, but Marquette is a much higher profile program than CSU, and Marquette is in a much higher profile conference.  Also, I think the issue is that there are only so many sports fans to go around in Cleveland.

My brother lives in Cleveland, and he told me that even the Cavs don't really draw that well unless they are winning.  I just think it is an issue of there being too much supply of sports teams with not enough demand/not a big enough fan base.

It is my understanding that the pecking order in Cleveland is:

#1 Browns
#2 Indians(much better than they used to be back in the 70's?/80's?/early 90's?)
#3 Cavs
#4 anything else, including CSU

[dayton flyers]

OK, I'll solve this.

12 teams, two 6 team divisions.  One division called the McGuire division.  Another division called the Donoher division

McGuire Division
Marquette
DePaul
SLU
Creighton
Villanova
Butler


Donoher Division (or Carnesecca Division)
Xavier
Dayton
Georgetown
Seton Hall
Providence
St. John's


Ok.....world peace, gun control, AIDS next to solve, but only after we get through this Mayan issue in two days.

Donoher Division!  I like it!!!

[jficke13]

It is my understanding that the pecking order in Cleveland is:

#1 Browns
#2 Indians(much better than they used to be back in the 70's?/80's?/early 90's?)
#3 Cavs
#4 anything else, including CSU

Those poor, poor, Clevelanders.

[dayton flyers]

Also, I was up in Milwaukee a couple years ago with my Xavier friends, and we went to the Bradley Center to watch the 1st and 2nd rounds of the NCAA tournament.

Xavier beat Minnesota in the first round, and Xavier beat Pitt in the second round.

We drove up to Green Bay on the off day and took a tour of Lambeau Field.  We also ate/drank some beers in the German area of downtown Milwaukee, and we went to the casino there in Milwaukee too.  It was a good time, Milwaukee is a nice town.  We were going to try to get to see the Brewers stadium and the Harley-Davidson factory?, but we didn't have time.

[WarriorDoc]

Ok, this is potentially a dumb question, but the whole philosophy of the B1G adding Rutgers was to increase subscribers for their network deal, not actual viewers. I see us adding SLU, Butler and Xavier to deliver these top markets if we follow this philosophy.

But what if this TV deal simply isn't big enough to get our own network? If we are being judged as a league on eyeballs and not on a cable subscriber deal, wouldn't we want to maximize actual viewers not just potential viewers like the B1G does?

[dayton flyers]

Ok, this is potentially a dumb question, but the whole philosophy of the B1G adding Rutgers was to increase subscribers for their network deal, not actual viewers. I see us adding SLU, Butler and Xavier to deliver these top markets if we follow this philosophy.

But what if this TV deal simply isn't big enough to get our own network? If we are being judged as a league on eyeballs and not on a cable subscriber deal, wouldn't we want to maximize actual viewers not just potential viewers like the B1G does?

Yeah, I agree.  If you don't have your own network, and are instead wanting to maximize the actual number of eyeballs you can deliver, then you are going to be VERY hard pressed to find a team that will deliver as many eyeballs as UD will.

UD outdraws everybody in the A10.

And UD outdraws everybody in the BE7 other than Marquette.  In 2012, UD even outdrew Georgetown.

2012 average home attendance:

Dayton 12,154
Georgetown 11,283

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2012.pdf

[bamamarquettefan]

I live in Dayton and we have our own TV stations, but Dayton is only about 50 miles from Cincinnati.  Essentially, Dayton and Cincinnati are the same media market.  I want Dayton and Xavier in a new conference for the selfish reason of getting to go to more Marquette games.  

I can't believe you would put your own desires ahead of what's good for the conference!   It's much more important to have VCU in the conference (in my native town of Richmond where i would certainly be during every MU trip there :-) )

[tower912]

I want Dayton in.   I have family who graduated from there.    They fill their arena.   And I fondly remember the home-and-home series that MU, UD, Depaul, and ND had during the 80's when they were the major midwest independents.  

[brewcity77]

Outdrawing people isn't remotely the same thing as maximizing eyeballs. Dayton also outdraws Duke basketball. Which do you think is more likely to attract eyeballs?

xghost, we aren't going to get our own network regardless. This conference is not in the same type of business that the B1G and SEC are. We are going to be looking for a deal with ESPN or NBC, maybe an outside shot at Fox or CBS. In terms of adding actual viewers, I really believe it's all about perception. That's why Butler is important. That's why VCU is important. That's why Xavier is important. These are tournament regulars that people are accustomed to hearing about come March. They will watch because March success has convinced people the teams are good.

In addition, you still want to expand the footprint, both to add local interest to more major markets and to increase recruiting opportunities. That's why schools like St. Louis, Creighton, and Gonzaga are more popular names for most message board posters than Dayton.

Dayton's a good school with a decent basketball program and a little bit of history. They wouldn't be a bad team to add. But I certainly wouldn't include them in the first round if getting to 10 is the goal. There just isn't enough investment in their programs when you compare them to the Butlers and VCUs of the world. Where they do shine is non-revenue sports, and if that's a factor, I think we could do worse. But I'd still put them at 7th or 8th in terms of desirable programs.

Sorry, dayton flyers, I don't mean any insult, it's just the way that I see this.

[bamamarquettefan]

And UD outdraws everybody in the BE7 other than Marquette.  In 2012, UD even outdrew Georgetown.

2012 average home attendance:

Dayton 12,154
Georgetown 11,283

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2012.pdf

While I prefer VCU to Dayton, i admit there is a strong case for Dayton.  I'd be curious to know if VCU has broken into the 100 most profitable programs in any sport like Georgetown, Marquette, Xavier and Dayton were a few years ago in this old post:

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2011/10/mu-hoops-more-profitable-than-most-fbs.html

Having almost half the conference turning a bigger net profit than most BCS football programs would seem like a solid building block.

[WarriorDoc]

Yeah, I agree.  If you don't have your own network, and are instead wanting to maximize the actual number of eyeballs you can deliver, then you are going to be VERY hard pressed to find a team that will deliver as many eyeballs as UD will.

UD outdraws everybody in the A10.

And UD outdraws everybody in the BE7 other than Marquette.  In 2012, UD even outdrew Georgetown.

2012 average home attendance:

Dayton 12,154
Georgetown 11,283

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2012.pdf

EDIT: brewcity beat me to it.

I was with you until you tried to argue TV viewership is connected to game attendance.  You just can't compare the two and say because Dayton fills their basketball stadium they also grab more TV viewers than Georgetown.  Dayton is a regional team whereas Georgetown is a national brand.  Georgetown garners interest from Georgetown alums, regional fans, and casual college b-ball fans, whereas Dayton is just a regional school that frankly no one outside of Dayton alums and local Dayton fans will care about.

The thing is, you also can't compare Georgetown vs. (insert Big East foe here) against Dayton vs (insert A-10 foe here) because it's not the environment we'll be playing within in a few years.  

[dayton flyers]

No offense, I understand that UD's national perception is not great.  IMO, Gregory screwed us, he was supposed to elevate the program, and he didn't, and now we may be screwed.  UD may have made a mistake keeping him around for as long as they did.

GT took him bc they were desperate.  GT owed their previous coach, Paul Hewitt, something like $7 million from a terrible contract that they gave him that had a never-ending automatic renewal.  They had to pay Hewitt something like 5? years worth of pay to get rid of him.  They got BG at a discount.  Had they had more money, BG would not have gotten the GT job.

I would however argue for Dayton over SLU.  I don't see many people taking an interest in SLU basketball even with the new conference.

And as a side note, Butler went to the Final 4 in 2010 and 2011.  In 2012, Butler's attendance actually decreased, after the two Final 4 seasons.  So, I don't see people in Indy taking a big interest in Butler either even with the new conference.

But, if you are talking about Dayton vs. Xavier or Butler or VCU or Creighton, then I would not take Dayton.

[WarriorDoc]

Outdrawing people isn't remotely the same thing as maximizing eyeballs. Dayton also outdraws Duke basketball. Which do you think is more likely to attract eyeballs?

xghost, we aren't going to get our own network regardless. This conference is not in the same type of business that the B1G and SEC are. We are going to be looking for a deal with ESPN or NBC, maybe an outside shot at Fox or CBS. In terms of adding actual viewers, I really believe it's all about perception. That's why Butler is important. That's why VCU is important. That's why Xavier is important. These are tournament regulars that people are accustomed to hearing about come March. They will watch because March success has convinced people the teams are good.

In addition, you still want to expand the footprint, both to add local interest to more major markets and to increase recruiting opportunities. That's why schools like St. Louis, Creighton, and Gonzaga are more popular names for most message board posters than Dayton.

Dayton's a good school with a decent basketball program and a little bit of history. They wouldn't be a bad team to add. But I certainly wouldn't include them in the first round if getting to 10 is the goal. There just isn't enough investment in their programs when you compare them to the Butlers and VCUs of the world. Where they do shine is non-revenue sports, and if that's a factor, I think we could do worse. But I'd still put them at 7th or 8th in terms of desirable programs.

Sorry, dayton flyers, I don't mean any insult, it's just the way that I see this.

Got it--so really, in order to get the most out of the TV deal we simply go for the maximum rating points a school can generate for ESPN/NBC/whomever, not the number of cable subscribers a network can charge.  Correct?

[dayton flyers]

Also, Creighton is in Nebraska, which is awfully far away from the east coast or even Indiana and Ohio for that matter.

And I'm not sure that Georgetown is ok with taking VCU.  Richmond(where VCU is), Virginia is only 108 miles from D.C.

[Skatastrophy]

Also, Creighton is in Nebraska, which is awfully far away from the east coast or even Indiana and Ohio for that matter.

And I'm not sure that Georgetown is ok with taking VCU.  Richmond(where VCU is), Virginia is only 108 miles from D.C.

Yeah, I've been surprised that there hasn't been much VCU noise anywhere besides message boards.  I'm doubtful that they're in play.

[brewcity77]

Got it--so really, in order to get the most out of the TV deal we simply go for the maximum rating points a school can generate for ESPN/NBC/whomever, not the number of cable subscribers a network can charge.  Correct?

Ratings are definitely our key as opposed to subscribers. We'll be on ESPN or NBC Sports, which pretty much every subscriber will have anyway.

[dayton flyers]

I hope that Dayton is in the new conference.  Some of you guys hate them so much (for reasons I don't understand) that I'd be a shame to throw that away!  You're *supposed* to hate some teams in your conference

Bring on the Flyers!

Thanks for the support!  I can practically guarantee that UD will do better under Archie Miller than they did under Brian Gregory.  BG is just, unfortunately, a bad coach.  A very nice guy, but a bad coach.  Unfortunately, I don't think he survives at GT more than 1 or 2 more years.

[dayton flyers]

I want Dayton in.   I have family who graduated from there.    They fill their arena.   And I fondly remember the home-and-home series that MU, UD, Depaul, and ND had during the 80's when they were the major midwest independents.  

Thanks for the support.