ESPN: A-10 Open To Expanding To 21, Taking The BE BBall Schools

[bilsu]

Assuming the 7 schools join the A-10 and it goes to three divisions, I suspect the only Big East team that would be in our division would be DePaul. I assuming the divisions would break down geographically, so we would be with DePaul, St. Louis, Butler. After that it gets harder to decide. Do we get put in with Pennsylvania teams or Ohio teams? I see the divisions as being a  problem for the A-10 to go to 21 teams as we do not end up playing teams we are used to playing. Also, I do not think Georgetown will be happy with the teams that are likely to end up in their division depending on how you draw the geographic lines.

[Skatastrophy]

Assuming the 7 schools join the A-10 and it goes to three divisions, I suspect the only Big East team that would be in our division would be DePaul. I assuming the divisions would break down geographically, so we would be with DePaul, St. Louis, Butler. After that it gets harder to decide. Do we get put in with Pennsylvania teams or Ohio teams? I see the divisions as being a  problem for the A-10 to go to 21 teams as we do not end up playing teams we are used to playing. Also, I do not think Georgetown will be happy with the teams that are likely to end up in their division depending on how you draw the geographic lines.

The A-10s current television contract is $40 million over 8 years.  They would have to renegotiate that contract in order to lure any big east teams into their conference, otherwise the money isn't even close.

[akmarq]

I'd prefer strong regional rivalries over viewership bologna. The old BE had strong rivalries and diluted them for money. Granted, had they chosen not to dilute the conference, we would never have been invited.

Unfortunatley, 'viewership bologna' is what is going to drive/determine this whole thing. The BE is not failing because of diluted basketball branding, it's failing because it doesn't have good football programs.

[Aughnanure]

It's gross.

[Aughnanure]

Fair points. I'm of the ilk that I don't want us relying too much on the jesuit/catholic league-vibe. I want to be part of a basketball conference. an affiliation of jesuit/catholic could certainly turn some people off/make for dicey situations.

Nobody's going to complain that we are adding Creighton, Xavier, etc for religious purposes.

[MU82]

I like how folks keep saying "we should just pinch a few of their schools," as if it would be easy peasy. All we'd have to do is ask and these A-10 schools would come running. We'd have to get a heck of a TV contract to have enough $$ to entice them.

[brewcity77]

I like how folks keep saying "we should just pinch a few of their schools," as if it would be easy peasy. All we'd have to do is ask and these A-10 schools would come running. We'd have to get a heck of a TV contract to have enough $$ to entice them.

Do you know how much the A-10 schools are currently getting? Depending on which report you read, it's between $224,000 and $350,000. Speculation for this proposed league has ranged between $1.6M and $2.5M. Even if we got half of the lower figure, it would more than double what the A-10 schools are currently getting, and that's if you take their high estimate.

All we'd have to do is ask and these A-10 schools would come running.

[79Warrior]

Do you know how much the A-10 schools are currently getting? Depending on which report you read, it's between $224,000 and $350,000. Speculation for this proposed league has ranged between $1.6M and $2.5M. Even if we got half of the lower figure, it would more than double what the A-10 schools are currently getting, and that's if you take their high estimate.

All we'd have to do is ask and these A-10 schools would come running.

Not so sure about that. Leave stability for uncertainty? A-10 is just fine right now. As Buzz says, don't mess with happy.

[MU82]

Do you know how much the A-10 schools are currently getting? Depending on which report you read, it's between $224,000 and $350,000. Speculation for this proposed league has ranged between $1.6M and $2.5M. Even if we got half of the lower figure, it would more than double what the A-10 schools are currently getting, and that's if you take their high estimate.

All we'd have to do is ask and these A-10 schools would come running.

It's a nice thought, brew. And if it's true, we should have made the call to the A-10 schools of our choice yesterday.

[chapman]

Not so sure about that. Leave stability for uncertainty? A-10 is just fine right now. As Buzz says, don't mess with happy.

They have a McJob, it's stability but still poverty.  They wouldn't think about inviting 7 schools if they were just fine; 12 of the 14 are scared to death that they will get left behind when X, SLU, and only one or two others get the invite.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Do you know how much the A-10 schools are currently getting? Depending on which report you read, it's between $224,000 and $350,000. Speculation for this proposed league has ranged between $1.6M and $2.5M. Even if we got half of the lower figure, it would more than double what the A-10 schools are currently getting, and that's if you take their high estimate.

All we'd have to do is ask and these A-10 schools would come running.

What's the penalty fee for leaving the A-10?  That has to be factored in as well.  The rumors have been that the existing Big East deal would mean about $4 million per year for the basketball schools, that's one reason why you haven't seen the basketball schools leave yet...that money can't be made up anywhere else without football as part of the overall deal.  To your point, Brew, it's a step down to the A-10 in terms of money, but not sure it is going to be easy to get some of the A-10 schools to jump up depending on their buyout provisions.

Incidentally, some reports state the cut for each A-10 schools is closer to $750K per....do not know if it is right or not.

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/teel-blog/dp-teel-time-newport-newsbased-atlantic-10-enhances-revenue-exposure-with-new-tv-deal-20121004,0,7824318.story

[chapman]

It's a nice thought, brew. And if it's true, we should have made the call to the A-10 schools of our choice yesterday.

They didn't come up with the idea to invite 7 new teams to join if they didn't know that a couple of their own weren't out shopping for luggage.

What's the penalty fee for leaving the A-10? 

Temple paid $1M.  Not sure if they changed it after.

[Mr. Nielsen]

If the Big East 7 basketball schools do join the A-10, 5 schools will be kicked out, to make it a 16 team league. Per ESPNU.

[brewcity77]

Not so sure about that. Leave stability for uncertainty? A-10 is just fine right now. As Buzz says, don't mess with happy.

A Big East made up of the C7 and 5 A-10 schools filled out with the likes of UConn and Memphis would be stable. Even if the football schools left, we have control of the league.

It's a nice thought, brew. And if it's true, we should have made the call to the A-10 schools of our choice yesterday.

We have 6 months to decide if we want to dissolve. 6 months to convince the worthwhile football schools to park their football elsewhere and remain for basketball. 6 months to determine which basketball schools from other leagues would be most beneficial. 6 months to feel out networks and build interest in a TV deal. For the first time since the CUSA teams joined the league in 2005, we control our destiny and have time to figure out what's next. Better to take time and think out where we go from here than rush it and make a mistake.

What's the penalty fee for leaving the A-10?  That has to be factored in as well.  The rumors have been that the existing Big East deal would mean about $4 million per year for the basketball schools, that's one reason why you haven't seen the basketball schools leave yet...that money can't be made up anywhere else without football as part of the overall deal.  To your point, Brew, it's a step down to the A-10 in terms of money, but not sure it is going to be easy to get some of the A-10 schools to jump up depending on their buyout provisions.

Incidentally, some reports state the cut for each A-10 schools is closer to $750K per....do not know if it is right or not.

First, I'm sure $4M is gone now, but $2M is still a realistic goal with basketball as our flagship product. And if we double or triple A-10 payouts while overcoming their buyout in 1-2 years it's a no-brainer.

I don't know how this pans out, but this news is the first we've had that actually gives me optimism in a long time. I couldn't be happier than hearing that at least in the Big East, basketball is driving the bus.

[The Equalizer]

Do you know how much the A-10 schools are currently getting? Depending on which report you read, it's between $224,000 and $350,000. Speculation for this proposed league has ranged between $1.6M and $2.5M. Even if we got half of the lower figure, it would more than double what the A-10 schools are currently getting, and that's if you take their high estimate.

All we'd have to do is ask and these A-10 schools would come running.

You're forgetting about the A-10's tournament payout structure, where teams keep 75% of their NCAA earnings.

Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2012/03/14/march-madness-a-trip-to-the-final-four-is-worth-9-5-million/

The NCAA payout for that appearnce is worth $240 this year, growing about 8%/year for five years.  So a team that makes the tournament will get over $1 million for each game they appear in.:
Year 1:  $240K
Year 2:  $260K
Year 3:  $280K
Year 4:  $302K
Year 5:  $327K
Total:  $1.409K

An A10 team keeps 75% of that, or just over $1 million/year per game they appear in (plus a 1/12 share of the rest)

In the Big East, that total divided equally by 15 teams now, or about $93,000 per game for every team
In a new 12-team conference, it would be about $116K/team per game.

Now think about a team like Xavier, which has been to 3 Sweet 16s and an elite eight over the last five years--their share of their historic performance is close to $3 million/year in tournament payouts--PLUS their $244 to $350 share of the A10 TV contract. 

So now they have a chance to give up $3.2 to $3.3 million/year to get a $1.6 to $2.5 million TV contract--and reduce their NCAA payout to a 1/12 share of whatever this new conference earns in NCAA revenue.  It might be break-even for them--if they decide to walk away from the $11 million or so of accumulated earnings they haven't received yet for the 2009, 10, 11 and 12 tournaments.

A team like Xavier may still decide to do move, but its not a "come running" or "no brainer" scenario.  The new league would have to be exceeding successful for them just to break even.

Duquesne or GW would come running--but I'm not sure the incentive is their for Xavier or Butler.

Now, I suppose you could argue that the new league might match the A10's payout.  That might entice Xavier or Butler to join.  (assuming you could make Xaiver whole for the $11 mil they leave behind.   But then you lose DePaul, St. Johns, Seton Hall and Providence who would probably not agree to such a plan.

[chapman]

If the Big East 7 basketball schools do join the A-10, 5 schools will be kicked out, to make it a 16 team league. Per ESPNU.

A bit bigger than ideal, but I wouldn't mind that at all.  Cya Fordham, GW, La Salle, St. Bon, and Duquesne.  That wouldn't be a bad merger; trade Creighton for Rhode Island and it's even better.  So if they don't mind the A10 brand, the C7 should be able to vote to reduce/scrap exit fees which would make it an easy move.

[MarquetteDano]

You're forgetting about the A-10's tournament payout structure, where teams keep 75% of their NCAA earnings.


Now, I suppose you could argue that the new league might match the A10's payout.  That might entice Xavier or Butler to join.  (assuming you could make Xaiver whole for the $11 mil they leave behind.   But then you lose DePaul, St. Johns, Seton Hall and Providence who would probably not agree to such a plan.

Good points but it doesn't have to be 75% or nothing.  One thing I have learned in my business dealings is that somewhere in between tends to make everyone happy.  My guess is that some percentage less than 75% but more than 0% will keep both the X's and DePaul's happy.

[brewcity77]

You're forgetting about the A-10's tournament payout structure, where teams keep 75% of their NCAA earnings.

I'm sure the league won't match the A-10 payouts, but I'd guess they'd give a healthier incentive than the current Big East to entice these teams. Offer teams to keep 40% of their winnings and you may get the lower level teams to come along. That's still a sizable cut to split up for NCAA winnings, a bigger TV contract that would be found if they went it alone, and far more security than any of us have experienced under the yoke of the football schools.

Also, that $116K per team per game, if you can place 6 teams in the Big Dance that play a total of 10 games (assuming half win the first round, one makes the Sweet 16), that's still a payout of over $1M per team per year, and that's before allowing teams to keep a percentage. Add that to a $2M share of TV revenue and Xavier is making over $3M and it's more stable money as it doesn't require them to personally keep making runs to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 to assure their earnings.

[Tugg Speedman]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8736716/atlantic-10-open-adding-big-east-basketball-schools-creating-21-team-conference-source

The Atlantic 10 has discussed the possibility of a 21-team basketball league in the event that the changing conference landscape makes high-profile Big East schools available, a source with direct knowledge of the situation told ESPN.com Tuesday.

The A-10 has been proactive during the past year, strengthening its brand as a high-profile basketball conference with the additions of Butler and VCU, two programs that were in the 2011 Final Four.

The A-10 is a 16-team conference for the 2012-13 season, but Temple and Charlotte are set to leave for the Big East and Conference USA, respectively.

The 21-team model would occur if the A-10 were to add the seven Big East Catholic schools (Marquette, DePaul, Georgetown, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's and Villanova) that met Sunday in New York with Big East commissioner Mike Aresco to go over their options.

The seven schools are attempting to secure the best television deal possible and are debating whether to split from the Big East.

The seven schools have a majority vote, with the three remaining FBS members being Connecticut, Cincinnati and South Florida. But the group of seven doesn't have the two-thirds vote to dissolve the league. Temple athletic director Bill Bradshaw told the Philadelphia Inquirer that the Owls are a full voting member, even though they don't join in all sports until July 1, 2013.

Industry sources say they couldn't see how or why Temple would side with the seven Catholic schools to vote to dissolve the league.

The seven Big East Catholic schools would have a hard time leaving because they would have to forgo NCAA tournament assets. But the A-10 would welcome them with open arms and promise a more lucrative television deal. The A-10 signed a new rights deal with NBC, CBS and ESPN but hasn't finished all of its rights fees, especially its digital platform.

The A-10, according to the source, has been paying attention to the Big East moves and have discussed how a 21-team conference would work.

There could be two 10-team divisions or a true 20-game conference schedule, with 10 home and 10 road games, by playing everyone once.

To sell the plan to the seven Big East Catholic schools, the A-10 would point to its stability, plus the opportunity to join like-minded institutions Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis and Richmond, as well as powers VCU and Butler, in major media markets on the East Coast, industrial Midwest and the heartland.

The source said the seven Catholic schools won't have to rush into a decision, due to the legal mess that would result from trying to leave. The source said the A-10 "is in a position of strength with the current 14 and would absolutely be open to going to 21."

[Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup]

From a combination of competitive or media market factors, there are at most, 6 teams worth taking from the A-10.

Xavier
SLU
Butler
VCU
Dayton
Richmond

The rest of the conference after those 6 are more akin to the NEC or the Patriot League than even the present bastardized version of the Big East.

Here's the number of NCAA Tournament bids for each of the remaining teams.

19- St. Joe's (14 of those berths were before 1986. Only one since 2004)
11- LaSalle (None since 1992)
10- George Washington (Has won 4 NCAA Tournament games in school history)
8- Rhode Island (none since 1999)
7- UMass (Not including 1996 vacated berth. No appearances since 1998)
6- St. Bonaventure (one appearance since 1979)
6- Duquesne (None since 1977)
4- Fordham (one appearance since 1971)

For reference, Seton Hall has 9 NCAA Appearances. DePaul has EIGHTEEN. In short, the A-10 needs the Catholic 7 much....MUCH more than the Catholic 7 need the A-10.

[Aughnanure]

From a combination of competitive or media market factors, there are at most, 6 teams worth taking from the A-10.

Xavier
SLU
Butler
VCU
Dayton
Richmond

The rest of the conference after those 6 are more akin to the NEC or the Patriot League than even the present bastardized version of the Big East.

Here's the number of NCAA Tournament bids for each of the remaining teams.

19- St. Joe's (14 of those berths were before 1986. Only one since 2004)
11- LaSalle (None since 1992)
10- George Washington (Has won 4 NCAA Tournament games in school history)
8- Rhode Island (none since 1999)
7- UMass (Not including 1996 vacated berth. No appearances since 1998)
6- St. Bonaventure (one appearance since 1979)
6- Duquesne (None since 1977)
4- Fordham (one appearance since 1971)

For reference, Seton Hall has 9 NCAA Appearances. DePaul has EIGHTEEN. In short, the A-10 needs the Catholic 7 much....MUCH more than the Catholic 7 need the A-10.

Forgot Creighton..

[brewcity77]

Further, those others don't bring new markets. St Joe's and La Salle are in Philly which we have through 'Nova. GW overlaps DC with Georgetown. We have Rhode Island through Providence and New York through St John's, so forget URI, St Bonnie, and Fordham.

Only UMass and Duquesne bring new markets.

And Creighton is MVC, though I hope we're looking at them too.

[ChicosBailBonds]

We have to have some bottom feeders.  For that reason alone I would add Duquense and UMASS.  Not sure Nova would want St. Joe's or LaSalle.  Not sure G'Town would want GW.  Same for St. John's with Fordham.

[Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup]

Forgot Creighton..

Creighton's not in the A-10.

[Warrior3211]

We have to realize "we" as Marquette don't get to pick and choose our conference. Without football we unfortunately have to take what we can get. All of these hypothetical situations are not realistic. There is a reason the 7 Catholic schools are meeting with Aresco, and it's to weigh their options on adding basketball schools.

At the rate the conference is going they are not looking to add just basketball schools, and in all honesty, I don't think top tier A-10 teams would truly want to join anymore. The conference is just a name now. It's not what it was when realignment started and everybody knows it.

A great scenario, so Marquette does not get left out to dry, would be for these seven schools to join the A-10. Within a few years it will be behind the ACC in terms of best basketball conference. It would have 21 teams with each playing each other once (10 home, 10 road). The conference tourney wouldn't have good old MSG, but it'd still be in NYC, but at the brand new Barclays Center. It's really not that bad of a situation when you truly look at where the Big East is headed in terms of basketball... Tulane...