So what do we know about our team?

[TheTulsaWarrior]

While Jake cannot create his own shot teams have to guard him on the outside and that stretches the defense. (something of value)  He makes few mistakes and plays well within the team concept. 

[real chili 83]

I like this team - a lot.  Much of what I see in terms of "negatives" seems to be things that will work themselves out and I see potential for quite a bit of improvement between now and March.  It's the never say die attitude. The world loves an underdog, and I think our scrappy play and work ethic will pay off.  We'll be in and out of the top 25 over the course of the season, and will have an opportunity to make some noise in March.

Agreed.  Well said.

[NersEllenson]

I have yet to be proven wrong about Jake Thomas.  He's a step slow on defense (don't mistake hustle for quickness) and cannot create his own shot.  Heady player, but that's about it.  Pretty much what I expected.

Let's just put it this way - if Jake continues to play as he has this season...a 9 point game here and there, 3-5 rebounds per game, 2-4 assists per game, 1-2 steals and limits his turnovers to 0-1 per game as he has done thus far - that will be as good/better than what Vander produced his first 2 years...yet you've banged the drum for Vander's performance for 2 years...yet can't do it for Jake?

Your inability to ever acknowledge being wrong about something is pretty funny!  

[GGGG]

Let's just put it this way - if Jake continues to play as he has this season...a 9 point game here and there, 3-5 rebounds per game, 2-4 assists per game, 1-2 steals and limits his turnovers to 0-1 per game as he has done thus far - that will be as good/better than what Vander produced his first 2 years...yet you've banged the drum for Vander's performance for 2 years...yet can't do it for Jake?! 

Yet again, Ners, you fail to understand that defense is half of basketball.  Thomas is a sub-standard defender, and played more than half a game yesterday and failed to score.  You think that makes him a good back up guard?

[tower912]

Disagree about Jake's defense.   IMO, he has shown himself to be a knowledgeable defender that understands angles and positioning and anticipates well.    He has done a decent job of staying with his man and rebounding.    He hasn't found his shot yet, but neither has Trent.    Sultan, he has been the exact same kind of 'there's-more-to-basketball-than-scoring' guy that you defend when it is Vander.   

[jsglow]

It's like a reverse Vander...we are judging players versus our expectations and not on what exactly they are doing on the court.

At 45 you lived through the Dukiet years.  Now THAT'S bad basketball.  I'll absolutely agree with the statement you made above.  Of course I expect VB to be one of the best players on the team, and he is.  Of course I'm pleasantly surprised that Jake is serviceable.  He is as well.  And I also hope that Ferguson continues to grow and grabs some of Jake's minutes.  Cause that means we'll get better.  And next year if Jake's role is reduced to that occasional walk-on sharpshooter, I'm absolutely fine with that.  Cause it'll mean we're darn good

I think many of us were simply concerned that with the loss of Mayo that Jake wouldn't be a serviceable player and we'd have a black hole after Vander.  You have to admit Sultan that Jake's been better than that, especially as it pertains to the non-shooting aspects of his game.

[GGGG]

Disagree about Jake's defense.   IMO, he has shown himself to be a knowledgeable defender that understands angles and positioning and anticipates well.    He has done a decent job of staying with his man and rebounding.    He hasn't found his shot yet, but neither has Trent.    Sultan, he has been the exact same kind of 'there's-more-to-basketball-than-scoring' guy that you defend when it is Vander.  

Sorry, but I disagree - he is simply "a guy" who doesn't bring anything special to the floor.  He played more than half the game, and his Roland Rating was -12.  On top of that, he had the lowest ORt of anyone who played double digit minutes.  That's not very good for a back up guard on a BCS team.

OTOH, Vander had a pretty poor offensive performance....yet had an ORt higher than Jake's and a RR of +26.

I'm not going to pretend to see something that isn't there.

I think many of us were simply concerned that with the loss of Mayo that Jake wouldn't be a serviceable player and we'd have a black hole after Vander.  You have to admit Sultan that Jake's been better than that, especially as it pertains to the non-shooting aspects of his game.

He's been serviceable...no more than that.

[tower912]

Destined to disagree, I guess.   IMO, he has held his own everywhere on the floor.   He hasn't hit many shots but he hasn't forced many either.    He isn't Todd Mayo, but he certainly isn't hurting us.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Yet again, Ners, you fail to understand that defense is half of basketball.  Thomas is a sub-standard defender, and played more than half a game yesterday and failed to score.  You think that makes him a good back up guard?

You keep saying he's a sub-standard defender.  It takes more than you saying it repeatedly to make it true.  In my observation, his defense has been fine.  His man does not routinely get by him, at least any more frequently than our other guards.  What are you seeing that I am not?

Regarding his scoring (or lack thereof in your view), you are taking the results from one game and using them to indict his offensive ability?  Come on.  Jake did play over a half of basketball in the last game and didn't score.  So what?  How many times did Mayo or Blue or Jamil or DJO or Jae go scoreless in a half of basketball?  Hell, Jamil didn't score against Butler...I guess he's no good either.  

Jake went 3-3 from three in 10 minutes in a game earlier this year.  Why aren't you using that game as your sample?  Oh, because it doesn't support what you've been saying since Jake arrived as a walk-on.  And lord  knows, walk-ons CAN'T be any good, right?

[GGGG]

You keep saying he's a sub-standard defender.  It takes more than you saying it repeatedly to make it true.  In my observation, his defense has been fine.  His man does not routinely get by him, at least any more frequently than our other guards.  What are you seeing that I am not?

For example, yesterday he was repeatedly attacked off the dribble which caused breakdowns in the team defense.

Regarding his scoring (or lack thereof in your view), you are taking the results from one game and using them to indict his offensive ability?  Come on.  Jake did play over a half of basketball in the last game and didn't score.  So what?  How many times did Mayo or Blue or Jamil or DJO or Jae go scoreless in a half of basketball?  Hell, Jamil didn't score against Butler...I guess he's no good either. 

Jake went 3-3 from three in 10 minutes in a game earlier this year.  Why aren't you using that game as your sample?  Oh, because it doesn't support what you've been saying since Jake arrived as a walk-on.  And lord  knows, walk-ons CAN'T be any good, right?

Fine.  For the season, Jake Thomas has a RR of -28.  Which isn't the worst on the team...that goes to Derrick Wilson.  (Not including single digit players Taylor and Ferguson.)

Again, he isn't necessarily bad.  But back to the original poster, I am not going to say he's the "real deal."  He's serviceable....which is pretty much what I expected.

[MU82]

I agree with a lot of what Sultan is saying about Thomas. If Vander plays 22 minutes and goes scoreless, he is pilloried, regardless of how well he plays defense. Thomas gets a pass, largely because so little was expected of him compared to the great expectations on Vander but also possibly because of other factors.

Where I disagree with Sultan is his saying Thomas is "just a guy." Well, he was "just a guy" who was in the right place at the right time to make what should have been the decisive play against Butler. That shows an intangible level that raises him over the "just a guy" tag. When I think of somebody being "just a guy," I think more of Erik Williams. Or Maurice Acker when he was a freshman. Or Cubillan when he fell out of favor and just got to play a couple minutes a game. Or Joe Fulce when hurting and able to do little more than take up space on the court.

"Just a guy" has little to no value. Thomas has real value. Game in and game out, his value will be nowhere near as high as that of Vander or Junior or Jamil or Gardner. That doesn't mean that he should be disrespected as a basketball player.

[GGGG]

Where I disagree with Sultan is his saying Thomas is "just a guy." Well, he was "just a guy" who was in the right place at the right time to make what should have been the decisive play against Butler. That shows an intangible level that raises him over the "just a guy" tag.

That is a fair point.

[NersEllenson]

When you look at the head to head comparison between Jake and Vander - about the only one Vander comes out better than Jake is in Roland rating.  Rebounds, Steals, Assist to Turnover, Offensive Rating, Field Goal percentage, Effective FG Percentage -Jake fares better than Vander in all categories.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=jake-thomas&p1=vander-blue

Jake also provides a true threat from the 3 that the team otherwise lacks, which helps create spacing..that greatly helps Vander slash to the basket more effectively,  There is on denying the value of spacing the floor with a sharpshooter like Jake...Steve Novak is basically "just a guy," yet he plays in the NBA due to his sharpshooting/floor spacing value.

But to hell with facts and reality....God forbid a player actually prove a Scooper wrong - as Vander is doing to me this year...and Jake Thomas is proving Sultan wrong!

[GGGG]

.

[jsglow]

.

Thanks.  It had been an interesting discussion and is now fully vetted.

[TomW1365]

.

Best post ever.