Pajama Party !

[Murffieus]

It's pathetic when a major political party holds a pajama party to publicize it's desire to surrender in a war----but it's even worse when such goings on drown out the important message of a real leader (Gen Petraeus) in the national media!

For the record Gen Petraeus said, "We have achieved what we believe is a reasonable amount of tactical momentum on the ground----gains against the near term threat Al Quida Iraq-----and gains against another near term threat and also a potentially long term threat, the shia militia extremists. There has been considerable progress against both."

[gjreda]

Sounds an awful lot like what he wrote September 25, 2004 in the Washington Post op-eds - and that was nearly three years ago.

Murff, do you believe the administration has any sort of plan for withdrawl?  No matter how bad things could possibly get, do you believe the administration would EVER remove forces, or would they simply keep petitioning for more and more?  It seems to me that they have no plan and will simply just let someone else deal with it... much like they have with other aspects of their office that we have previously discussed.

Oh, and the "pajama party" would have been OK if it were the Republicans orchestrating it, right? - http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/12/senate.debate.ap/index.html

[tower912]

And the surge was supposed to create space for the Iraqi government to be able to gain control and take over security so that we could leave.  Maliki claims he is ready to do so.   Ergo, time to leave.   Unless of course, our reason for being there has changed again.

[Murffieus]

I've got news for both of you---we're going to be there for a long time (similar to Korea, Germany, Kosovo, and Japan)-----there won't be a complete withdrawal----you asked about the plan-----that's the plan!

Notice that both the sunni's and shia who had bolted parliment have returned----look for some political progress in the months to come. Political progress can only come after there is some resemblence of civil stability, which appears to be on the way.

[gjreda]

I don't belive there should be a complete withdrawl, but this Administration believes we should a.) keep everyone over there or b.) send more people over there.  There is no plan, I firmly believe that.  There has been no definition of what "victory" is.

[ChicosBailBonds]

And the surge was supposed to create space for the Iraqi government to be able to gain control and take over security so that we could leave.  Maliki claims he is ready to do so.   Ergo, time to leave.   Unless of course, our reason for being there has changed again.

Then have his government vote on such a measure that they want us to leave.  As such, right now that's not the case....is it?

[Murffieus]

Very good Chicos-----where do you come up with this stuff?

eagle 08-----victory is a controlled stable civilian situation with sharply reduced violence with the result that the populace "fear" level resides----will probably not be completely eliminated. people in Iraq live in fear----first with Saddam----now with Al Quida fostering sectarian violence!

[ChicosBailBonds]

Very good Chicos-----where do you come up with this stuff?

eagle 08-----victory is a controlled stable civilian situation with sharply reduced violence with the result that the populace "fear" level resides----will probably not be completely eliminated. people in Iraq live in fear----first with Saddam----now with Al Quida fostering sectarian violence!

I am a collector of political cartoons, have been for years.  Michael Ramirez, former Pulitzer Prize winner here for the LA Times was my favorite but he was fired as were many other political cartoonists across the country from mostly liberal papers.  You can still find Ramirez work now here...he's bloody brilliant.  Cagle's site also has some terrific cartoons.

http://www.investors.com/editorial/cartoon.asp

[gjreda]

Very good Chicos-----where do you come up with this stuff?

eagle 08-----victory is a controlled stable civilian situation with sharply reduced violence with the result that the populace "fear" level resides----will probably not be completely eliminated. people in Iraq live in fear----first with Saddam----now with Al Quida fostering sectarian violence!

How do you "control" someone from blowing him/herself up?  Must we wait to leave until all of blown themselves up?  We are trying a moderate a civil war that we have no business being in.  As insensitive as Obama's comments regarding genocide in Iraq seem, he has a great point.  The middle east has always been a hot bed due to all the religious conflict.  These people are willing to blow themselves up for their religion... it isn't something that is going to be able to be "controlled."

[mviale]

Lets just say - I wont let any of my family go to Iraq.  I dont want my kid losing his life in something we have zero control.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Lets just say - I wont let any of my family go to Iraq.  I dont want my kid losing his life in something we have zero control.

If my kids want to go, they can go.  It's an adult decision and I would respect their decision to do what they believed in.

[Murffieus]

eagle----My understanding is that people who agree to blow themselves up are people who are depressed to point where many of them are mentally ill----see no future for themselves here on earth  -----also deeply religious but so are a lot of Muslims who don't blow themselves up. They don't often volunteer out of the blue, but are generally recruited with a sales pitch (72 virgins, etc.).

IMO the ultimate answer is democracy and free enterprise, which is what we are trying to set up in Iraq-----the mideast is the last congomeration of kings and despots in the world-----that tradition has to be broken to give the people hope.

In Iraq----the safe havens have to be identified and destroyed and the Al Quida hierarchy there has to be destroyed-----Iran will have to be dealt with----probably next year!

[mviale]

Lets just say - I wont let any of my family go to Iraq.  I dont want my kid losing his life in something we have zero control.

If my kids want to go, they can go.  It's an adult decision and I would respect their decision to do what they believed in.

That dont work in my family

[Murffieus]

mviale----politics aside----if you don't let your adult kids (18 or over) follow their hearts----you're asking for trouble----besides you have no authority at that point!

[mviale]

Viale's have not fought in wars since WW II and that is when my great uncle won the medal of honor.  I truly respect the volunteers in Iraq. They are great americans and it only strengthens my views that we need to pull those troops out of a civil war in a foreign country.  We were reckless in persuing the Penac doctrine in the name of 911.  Lets contain Iraq and move our troops from direct combat.

[Murffieus]

mvaile----like now----there were a lot of people like you that were against our involvement in Europe against Hitler pre Pearl Harbor (I'm sure your great uncle wasn't one of them) -----in fact so many were opposed (they were called isolationists) that FDR couldn't muster a declaration of war in congress when he wanted to as early as 1938-39. Now, had we enjoined the war in the late 1930s less lives would have been lost.

By confronting Al Quida the way Bush has----it has kept them at bay-----surrendering in Iraq would allow them to follow us back here----completely unacceptable in this    day and age of WMD-----think of the consequences of surrender!

BTW----what civil war?------has there been a Gettysburg type battle?----if there has i haven't heard about it. It's a huge leap from isolated sectarian bombings to a civil war!

[ChicosBailBonds]

Lets just say - I wont let any of my family go to Iraq.  I dont want my kid losing his life in something we have zero control.

If my kids want to go, they can go.  It's an adult decision and I would respect their decision to do what they believed in.

That dont work in my family

Our family is been in every war, including this one.  I suspect that will continue in years to come.  The world is a dangerous place and sometimes it comes to using force, wish it didn't but that's the reality in the world.

[Murffieus]

Correct----to refrain from defending one's self ultimately results in slavery!