Overreaction

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

There seem to be two general camps. The first camp is the "Buzz should be gone, program is in ruins, we can't possibly survive this" angle. The second camp is the "Larry Williams is the Notre Dame devil, trying to drive MU hoops into the ground, we can't possibly survive this" perspective.

The truth is probably somewhere in between. Most likely, the program isn't in ruins, and Larry Williams isn't trying to drive MU hoops into the ground. And regardless, I'm pretty sure we can survive this.

Those are the 2 most vocal/memorable groups, and most likely are the outliers, even on this board.

I like Buzz a lot, but I'm cool with Buzz having a boss, and Pilarz's qualifications give me hope that he knows how to use hoops to help build the school reputation.

[brewcity77]

Those are the 2 most vocal/memorable groups, and most likely are the outliers, even on this board.

I like Buzz a lot, but I'm cool with Buzz having a boss, and Pilarz's qualifications give me hope that he knows how to use hoops to help build the school reputation.

Like Hilltopper's post yesterday, I'm just glad there are a few voices of reason here. Too bad they're so far in the vocal minority.

[ATL MU Warrior]

The issue is LW's quotes to the Journal Sentinel came after the WVU game.  As for Buzz walking up to Larry and high fiving him after the WVU game...could have been some aggression release on Buzz's part to an extent for having been forced (not at his discretion) to suspend players for that critical game - yet to still be able to win.  Also might explain his little two step dance after the game too.  Both the high five and two step were out of the ordinary with regard to Buzz's post game decorum.

This is an honest question.  

Buzz is always preaching about accountability, making the guys on the team better people, character revealed, etc. With that in mind, how do you arrive at the conclusion that he was forced to suspend players for the WVU game?  If he's a man that is true to his word as we all hope that he is, wouldn't he be down with that suspension as a part of the maturation process of the guys on the team that broke the rule that got them suspended?  

Another question:  Do you also think that the rather odd nature of the suspension suggests that Buzz and Larry might have put their heads together to figure out a way to both 1) make their point to the players and 2) have a chance in hell of winning the game?

Of course the obvious answer is that he's ultra competitive and wouldn't want to be put at such a disadantage on the road in a critical conference game.  But, I think there is more to Buzz than that, and I think that because he's constantly saying so himself.  

[GGGG]

There seem to be two general camps. The first camp is the "Buzz should be gone, program is in ruins, we can't possibly survive this" angle. The second camp is the "Larry Williams is the Notre Dame devil, trying to drive MU hoops into the ground, we can't possibly survive this" perspective.

The truth is probably somewhere in between. Most likely, the program isn't in ruins, and Larry Williams isn't trying to drive MU hoops into the ground. And regardless, I'm pretty sure we can survive this.

Agreed completely.

[Goose]

I am in the camp that Fr. P really just wants his own guy. It may be as simple as that. Do not believe LW wants to ruin MU basketball. Only concern I have had all along is every new hire is a major risk and I do not see any reason why Fr. P or LW would want anything other than Buzz to keep building on the brand.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I am in the camp that Fr. P really just wants his own guy. It may be as simple as that. Do not believe LW wants to ruin MU basketball. Only concern I have had all along is every new hire is a major risk and I do not see any reason why Fr. P or LW would want anything other than Buzz to keep building on the brand.

Yea, but if they ultimately wanted their own guy, why shell out big bucks for Chew, a guy Buzz presumably wanted?

Certainly they could have got a mid-priced guy and nobody would have thought anything of it.

And don't tell me it's because they are grooming Chew, because Buzz could smell that from a mile away.

Pilarz/Williams/Williams might not be best friends, but I think they all know that they need each other. Now, I have no idea if all of them will be here in 2014.

[Lennys Tap]

There seem to be two general camps. The first camp is the "Buzz should be gone, program is in ruins, we can't possibly survive this" angle. The second camp is the "Larry Williams is the Notre Dame devil, trying to drive MU hoops into the ground, we can't possibly survive this" perspective.

The truth is probably somewhere in between. Most likely, the program isn't in ruins, and Larry Williams isn't trying to drive MU hoops into the ground. And regardless, I'm pretty sure we can survive this.

I think the the two camps can be divided as follows:

Camp 1: Buzz Backers. Consider Buzz a great guy and a great coach. Think that with the full backing and support of the administration he can take us to heights not seen since the 70s. Don't like off the court problems but think most are beyond the coach's control. Have nothing against LW and don't care where he went to school, but don't see (especially in light of some of his comments) him as a Buzz ally. The fact that Buzz isn't Fr Pilarz's and Larry's guy worries them. If there really is a power struggle going on, they back Buzz.

Camp 2: Administration backers. Mixed feelings on Buzz. Like the on court success but feel the program is a little out of control. Back the administration's reining in of Buzz, and are OK with him moving on if he doesn't agree with his bosses. They feel if it happens the program will be fine. If there really is a power struggle going on, they back Larry/Scott/BOT.

There are only a couple of outliers who think that LW is an ND plant out to destroy MU or that Buzz has driven the program into ruins, but unfortunately it's often the way the members of each camp sometimes characterize one another. Sorta like politics.

[NersEllenson]

That's fine, I never said they were best friends. I just said people keep bringing up the quotes from Larry again and again, but nobody talks about the high five.

Instead of the simplest explanation, they might actually get along sometimes, you came with this:

I mean, really? An "aggression release" high five? and Buzz's dancing is out of the ordinary and somehow related to Larry?

Here is your original post:  You know, everybody goes back to the quotes as some sort of evidence, but nobody talks about the Buzz and Larry high fives after the WVU game.

Just sayin'.

So if you want to speculate that all was well between Buzz and Larry at the time of the WVU game, and my aggression release theory is way off base - which it very well probably is as it was total speculation - then what events thereafter would have caused Buzz to give serious consideration to the SMU job..yet just 1 year prior pass up MUCH BETTER jobs at OU, Arkansas and A&M??  Buzz at the time was quoted as saying you don't mess with happy - Buzz was happy at MU at the close of the 2011 season...not happy at the close of 2012.

The quotes Larry gave to the Journal Sentinel pissed off Buzz...and that is fact.  Add to that the in season suspensions of his players - which had never occurred before in his tenure - prior to the new admin/AD showing up - and it is quite evident there was a rift.  

[NersEllenson]

I think the the two camps can be divided as follows:

Camp 1: Buzz Backers. Consider Buzz a great guy and a great coach. Think that with the full backing and support of the administration he can take us to heights not seen since the 70s. Don't like off the court problems but think most are beyond the coach's control. Have nothing against LW and don't care where he went to school, but don't see (especially in light of some of his comments) him as a Buzz ally. The fact that Buzz isn't Fr Pilarz's and Larry's guy worries them. If there really is a power struggle going on, they back Buzz.

Camp 2: Administration backers. Mixed feelings on Buzz. Like the on court success but feel the program is a little out of control. Back the administration's reining in of Buzz, and are OK with him moving on if he doesn't agree with his bosses. They feel if it happens the program will be fine. If there really is a power struggle going on, they back Larry/Scott/BOT.

There are only a couple of outliers who think that LW is an ND plant out to destroy MU or that Buzz has driven the program into ruins, but unfortunately it's often the way the members of each camp sometimes characterize one another. Sorta like politics.

Perfectly stated.

[brandx]

I don't think you're patently false, but I think some leaps are being made out of fear.

- We like Buzz, we like winning.

- Enter a new President, and new AD. We don't know them.

- Some decisions are made that might impact the success of MU basketball.

- Several people jump to broad conclusions about the new Pres. and AD because they are fearful that the new guys are going to mess it up and take our toy away.

- Once we get to know the Pres. and AD better, it might not be so scary to trust them. Or, maybe they are terrible people. I don't know, yet.

My feelings, exactly.

Monarch lied about a recruiting violation and he's gone - as he should be. And Buzz was his boss so he bears responsibility.

One thing that really bugs me though, are the constant references that Buzz was just this close to taking the SMU job. (If he was, then he is not the person that most of us think he is. When James and Hunt are the big money backers at SMU, you are almost begging for serious problems with the NCAA.)

I seriously doubt that anyone on this board was privy to the talks. And.... it is any coaches duty to check out the terrain when they are a hot property - it doesn't mean they are close to leaving or want to leave.

[jmayer1]

The quotes Larry gave to the Journal Sentinel pissed off Buzz...and that is fact.  Add to that the in season suspensions of his players - which had never occurred before in his tenure - prior to the new admin/AD showing up - and it is quite evident there was a rift.  

These quotes were blown way out of proportion, mainly by you. That is a fact. Please show me proof that those comments pissed off Buzz, other than some "personal email" he wrote to you. The second sentence is just more of your LW garbage. There have been a few things that haven't made MU look the greatest and I think LW has tightened the reins a little bit as a result, which is his right as the AD and which I support. If Buzz can't live with that, well then all his "making men better" stuff is a bunch of b/s. There really is very, very little to show that Buzz isn't happy. I think Buzz only talked to SMU as that's his nature (responds to everyone that reaches out to you) but mainly to push for Benford. I don't think he ever seriously considered that job at all. I still love Buzz as a coach and think he will be here a long, long time, but if for some reason he thinks his program is above discipline from above (which I don't think he does), well then we should start finding a new coach. All of these posts on either far side of the ledger, especially your's in regards to LW, are becoming very annoying. There are children overreacting on both sides, please let the adults talk amongst themselves and save your conspiracy theories and hocus-pocus for the clubhouse.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Here is your original post:  You know, everybody goes back to the quotes as some sort of evidence, but nobody talks about the Buzz and Larry high fives after the WVU game.

Just sayin'.

So if you want to speculate that all was well between Buzz and Larry at the time of the WVU game, and my aggression release theory is way off base - which it very well probably is as it was total speculation - then what events thereafter would have caused Buzz to give serious consideration to the SMU job..yet just 1 year prior pass up MUCH BETTER jobs at OU, Arkansas and A&M??  Buzz at the time was quoted as saying you don't mess with happy - Buzz was happy at MU at the close of the 2011 season...not happy at the close of 2012.

The quotes Larry gave to the Journal Sentinel pissed off Buzz...and that is fact.  Add to that the in season suspensions of his players - which had never occurred before in his tenure - prior to the new admin/AD showing up - and it is quite evident there was a rift.  

Ners,

I'm not debating the quotes in the paper, I'm not debating the SMU stuff. You and I have already gone around and around on that months ago. No need to revisit.

I'm simply saying that the newspaper quotes get brought up routinely as "proof" Buzz and Larry don't get along.

The high 5 never gets brought up. I know it doesn't "prove" anything, but my point was that maybe they get along sometimes, maybe other times they don't.

I don't think that is a controversial or unreasonable.

[NersEllenson]

These quotes were blown way out of proportion, mainly by you. That is a fact. Please show me proof that those comments pissed off Buzz, other than some "personal email" he wrote to you. The second sentence is just more of your LW garbage. There have been a few things that haven't made MU look the greatest and I think LW has tightened the reins a little bit as a result, which is his right as the AD and which I support. If Buzz can't live with that, well then all his "making men better" stuff is a bunch of b/s. There really is very, very little to show that Buzz isn't happy. I think Buzz only talked to SMU as that's his nature (responds to everyone that reaches out to you) but mainly to push for Benford. I don't think he ever seriously considered that job at all. I still love Buzz as a coach and think he will be here a long, long time, but if for some reason he thinks his program is above discipline from above (which I don't think he does), well then we should start finding a new coach. All of these posts on either far side of the ledger, especially your's in regards to LW, are becoming very annoying. There are children overreacting on both sides, please let the adults talk amongst themselves and save your conspiracy theories and hocus-pocus for the clubhouse.

Only a child would argue that getting it straight from the person's mouth (or sorry keyboard via e-mail) doesn't hold relevance.  You can keep your adult card by all means, but it is sad when self proclaimed adults have their head in the sand more than the so called children.

Do I believe Buzz thinks his program is above discipline??  No.  Do I know Buzz doesn't expect to open the local newspaper and see his boss of 90 days make disparaging remarks about him?  Yes.  Do I recall hearing of a recent case where an assistant coach made 1 mistake in a 4 year period of time regarding NCAA compliance issues that resulted in the head coach (with no prior NCAA issues) getting a 1 game suspension?  No.  Do I know if the relationship between the two can be mended and that they can coexist?  No.  Is it possible, the relationship could mend and improve?  Certainly.  Would I bet on it/Buzz being here in 2 years if Larry Williams is still A.D.?  No.  Would I bet Buzz would land on his feet at a high profile coaching job in a BCS conference even given all of the "warts" many in our own fanbase seem to want to pin on him??  Abso-freaking-lutely...and whatever sum of money anyone wants to bet...I'd take all of those bets.

[GGGG]

Do I recall hearing of a recent case where an assistant coach made 1 mistake in a 4 year period of time regarding NCAA compliance issues that resulted in the head coach (with no prior NCAA issues) getting a 1 game suspension?  No. 

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5931058

What do I win???

[brewcity77]

Only a child would argue that getting it straight from the person's mouth (or sorry keyboard via e-mail) doesn't hold relevance.  You can keep your adult card by all means, but it is sad when self proclaimed adults have their head in the sand more than the so called children.

Ners, the problem with this is that no one believes in your "personal email". Hundreds of Marquette fans emailed Buzz during the SMU situation. Dozens of Marquette fans on these message boards all got the same exact email from him in response. Somehow, miraculously, Brent Williams singled you out as the one person with which he chose to share his true, deepest darkest feelings, and yet because it was so intense and personal, you can't share it with anyone else. Despite multiple others sharing the email responses they got verbatim.

Sorry, but there is no way that Buzz chooses one fan out of hundreds or thousands to have a heart-to-heart with when he has no idea what anyone's personal motivations are. And there is certainly no way you'll convince anyone it's real without providing some visceral proof, though this long after the fact, I'm sure most people would consider any proof you provided now to be doctored or contrived.

Your "personal email" isn't "straight from the person's mouth". At least, not in a sense that anyone in their right mind will believe. Any time you bring it up, the way it resonates in everyone's mind would be the exact same as me telling you that God spoke to me and said Buzz Williams is going to stay at Marquette until he retires. That is the exact reaction every single poster on this site has when you reference the email. So I strongly suggest you never mention it again, as it can only serve to further damage any credibility you still have.

[NersEllenson]

Ners, the problem with this is that no one believes in your "personal email". Hundreds of Marquette fans emailed Buzz during the SMU situation. Dozens of Marquette fans on these message boards all got the same exact email from him in response. Somehow, miraculously, Brent Williams singled you out as the one person with which he chose to share his true, deepest darkest feelings, and yet because it was so intense and personal, you can't share it with anyone else. Despite multiple others sharing the email responses they got verbatim.

Sorry, but there is no way that Buzz chooses one fan out of hundreds or thousands to have a heart-to-heart with when he has no idea what anyone's personal motivations are. And there is certainly no way you'll convince anyone it's real without providing some visceral proof, though this long after the fact, I'm sure most people would consider any proof you provided now to be doctored or contrived.

Your "personal email" isn't "straight from the person's mouth". At least, not in a sense that anyone in their right mind will believe. Any time you bring it up, the way it resonates in everyone's mind would be the exact same as me telling you that God spoke to me and said Buzz Williams is going to stay at Marquette until he retires. That is the exact reaction every single poster on this site has when you reference the email. So I strongly suggest you never mention it again, as it can only serve to further damage any credibility you still have.

I've only brought the email up 1 time (today) since I mentioned it months ago...at which time I was pressed and pressed and pressed on the nature of the e-mail.  I outlined at that time the nature of the e-mail...as far as Buzz's response.  It was not a heart to heart e-mail...Buzz didn't share his deep dark feelings with me.  Did he write I agree with ALL you have written - with ALL capitalized??  Yes.  What I wrote is what I've expressed here on the topic - that I found the comments made by LW in the Journal Sentinel inappropriate, offensive, yet if not stated to the local paper could have some merit and benefit to Buzz from the perspective of taking his foot off the gas a little bit.  I also wrote that 90% of our fanbase loves him, but there seems to be a 10% faction that is self righteous and cannot accept 18-22 years olds making an occasional mistake - and that it is impossible for a coach to be with his players 24x7 and ensure they never get in trouble.

There you have it...for the 2nd time....as for why I may have been the only one who got a personal reply, beyond the standard one sent to most - perhaps mine was more personal/resonated more with Buzz.  No one here would ever dispute my mancrush on Buzz - and I'm sure that came across in the e-mail.  Ridicule me if you want.  Call me a liar.  I don't really give a sh$t - I know I'm not a liar, so does Jesus and that's good enough for me.  My first love has always been MU hoops, and I've loved MU hoops since Kevin O'Neill got to MU - hated when he left - saw the writing on the wall during the Deane years -was grateful and thrilled with what Tom Crean accomplished at MU...was genuinely upset when TC moved on because he'd done great things at MU...but Buzz Williams to me is a remarkable dude, who is a great man, who is getting great results at the school I love....and it seems we are close to running him off...and the guy has conducted himself better than any of the previous coaches I know of while at MU with regard to personal conduct.  He doesn't deserve to be crucified for things that are largely out of his control.

[Goose]

Nets
Do not always agree with you but love your passion. I 100% believe your email communication with Buzz. Keep up the fight.

[Lennys Tap]

Ners,
I know for a fact that Buzz didn't send the same "form email" of thanks to everyone. I absolutely believe that you received a personal one.

[lab_warrior]

Nets
Do not always agree with you but love your passion. I 100% believe your email communication with Buzz. Keep up the fight.

Ners,
I know for a fact that Buzz didn't send the same "form email" of thanks to everyone. I absolutely believe that you received a personal one.

Goose, Lenny, and Ners = cycle sisters.  How cute.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Ners,
I know for a fact that Buzz didn't send the same "form email" of thanks to everyone. I absolutely believe that you received a personal one.

Another "fact" apparently known only be a select few.  Did yours have your name on it?  Is that how you know?  Did you see multiple email responses from Buzz to different fans that were different? 

[Warhawk Warrior]

This will flip a lot of folks -- I'm a LW fan.  I was fortunate to have a lengthy conversation with LW long before these issues and I tell you the guy is smart, cares about kids, likes Buzz and loves MU.  I'm also a Buzz fan.  Is that allowed on this Board?

[GGGG]

This will flip a lot of folks -- I'm a LW fan.  I was fortunate to have a lengthy conversation with LW long before these issues and I tell you the guy is smart, cares about kids, likes Buzz and loves MU.  I'm also a Buzz fan.  Is that allowed on this Board?

NO THAT IS A COMPLETELY UNREASONABLE POSITION TO TAKE!!!!  YOU HAVE TO EITHER BE PRO-BUZZ OR PRO-LW!!!!  NO MIDDLE GROUND!!!

[Warhawk Warrior]

Love it.

[LloydMooresLegs]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5931058

What do I win???

Alas, nothing.  Unless Ners now recalls.   

[Lennys Tap]

Another "fact" apparently known only be a select few.  Did yours have your name on it?  Is that how you know?  Did you see multiple email responses from Buzz to different fans that were different? 

Warrior, I think I remember you as a reasonable guy in past threads. I'm not going to go into this any further for a number of reasons. If that makes me a liar in your eyes I'll live with it. I probably should have kept my mouth shut in the first place.