Laws? What laws?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why do the regressives always claim "its not the first time" whenever they do something wrong - this doesnt make it right.

Regressives...wow...well after reading this piece today from "PROGRESSIVES" then I'm pleased that I'm a regressive.  What a bunch of loons.

The Progressive Online...."Put Away the Flags" by Howard Zinn

http://progressive.org/media_mpzinn070106

[ChicosBailBonds]

Pardoning your own bad employees - shame shame

Just resign for america's sake

You mean like Henry Cisneros, Mike Espy, etc....keep coming up with them Mviale, it's like hitting a ball off a tee.

[ChicosBailBonds]

all of clintons pardon/commutations served some time.

Wanna bet?

[Pakuni]

Pardoning your own bad employees - shame shame

Just resign for america's sake

You mean like Henry Cisneros, Mike Espy, etc....keep coming up with them Mviale, it's like hitting a ball off a tee.

Clinton never pardoned Espy. He never needed to pardon Espy because Espy was found not guilty. It would be kind of silly to pardon someone who wasn't convicted, don't you think?
In this case, I'd suggest you whiffed on that swing. Or, at the very least, shanked that one to the ladies' tees.

As for Cisneros, do you believe that was the right thing or wrong thing to do?

Would you agree that clinton;s

[Pakuni]

Why hasn't Fitzfong gone after Richard Armitage...the person that ACTUALLY DID THE LEAKING???

We all know the real answer, but shhhhhh....we can't say it because that wouldn't be right.

Oh, do tell. Since you seem to have an inside track on the decisionmaking process of one Patrick Fitzgerald. I'm looking forward to this.

You're Fitzfong comment, while I hope was merely a weak attempt at humor, is ridiculously far off base. I guess can understand your ire over a prosecutor who had the temerity to do his job rather than suck up to the Republican establishment. But this country needs more Patrick Fitzgeralds, fewer Alberto Gonzalezs, Monica Goodlings and Kyle Sampsons.

[tower912]

I love the fact that Marc Rich is being brought into the discussion of Scooter Libby.   Who here remembers who the attorney was for Marc Rich?   Anyone?   Anyone?   Bueller?     Answer:   Scooter Libby was one of the attorneys for Marc Rich.   What a country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Rich

[Murffieus]

So does that make Libby a criminal-?------that's what a criminal attorney does ----defends criminals. Is Johnny Cochran a criminal because he defended OJ?

[jutaw22mu]

clinton had something like 467 pardons during his 8 years in term (i think 100 on the last day in office).  W has around 100 so far i believe.

As far as commutations, W is in the single digits while Clinton had between 60-80.  i cant remember exact numbers.  seriously unlike impeachment boy, W has not abused the commutations/pardons. 

when are liberals going to learn to grow up.

[ilovefreeway]

Why hasn't Fitzfong gone after Richard Armitage...the person that ACTUALLY DID THE LEAKING???

We all know the real answer, but shhhhhh....we can't say it because that wouldn't be right.

First off, don't blame Fitzgerald for any of this.  He has had an oustanding career as a prosecutor and is well known for not letting politics get into his decision making.  When then Senator Fitzgerald (no relation) brought him into Illinois people called it the senators' death knell (and it was) because neither side wanted that type pf prosecutor

Second, what evidence, ADMISSABLE IN COURT UNDER FEDERAL RULES OF EVIDENCE, does Fitzgerald have against anyone else in this leak case?

Career
Fitzgerald was born into a working-class Irish American-Catholic family in Brooklyn and grew up in the Flatbush neighborhood. His father (also named Patrick Fitzgerald) worked as a doorman in Manhattan. Fitzgerald attended Holy Cross grammar school, Our Lady Help of Christians grammar school, Regis High School, a prestigious Jesuit Catholic school in Manhattan, and received degrees in economics and mathematics from Amherst College before receiving his JD from Harvard Law School in 1985.

After practicing civil law, Fitzgerald became an Assistant United States Attorney in New York City in 1988. He handled drug-trafficking cases and in 1993 assisted in the prosecution of Mafia figure John Gotti, the boss of the Gambino crime family.  In 1994, Fitzgerald became the prosecutor in the case against Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman and 11 others charged in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.

In 1996, Fitzgerald became the National Security Coordinator for the Office of the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York. There, he served on a team of prosecutors investigating Osama bin Laden. He also served as chief counsel in prosecutions related to the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania.

On September 1, 2001, Fitzgerald was nominated for the position of U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois on the recommendation of U.S. Senator Peter Fitzgerald (no relation), a Republican from Illinois. On October 24, 2001, the nomination was confirmed by the Senate.


Illinois
Soon after becoming U.S. Attorney for Northern Illinois, Fitzgerald began an investigation of political appointees of Republican Illinois Governor George Ryan, who were suspected of accepting bribes to give licenses to unqualified truck drivers. Fitzgerald soon expanded this investigation, uncovering a network of political bribery and gift-giving, and leading to more than 60 indictments. Ryan, who did not seek re-election in 2002, was indicted in December 2003. At the conclusion of the trial, in April 2006, Ryan was found guilty on all eighteen counts against him. Ryan's co-defendant, Chicago businessman Larry Warner, 67, was convicted of racketeering conspiracy, fraud, attempted extortion, and money laundering. The two were sentenced on 6 September 2006: Ryan received a sentence of six and one half years, and Warner received a sentence of three years, five months.

Against criticism that these cases were based on circumstantial evidence, Fitzgerald responded: "People now know that if you're part of a corrupt conduct, where one hand is taking care of the other and contracts are going to people, you don't have to say the word 'bribe' out loud.... And I think people need to understand we won't be afraid to take strong circumstantial cases into court."

On July 18, 2005, Fitzgerald's office indicted a number of top aides to Democrat Richard M. Daley, the mayor of Chicago, on charges of mail fraud, alleging numerous instances of corruption in hiring practices at City Hall. Fitzgerald is also investigating the administration of current Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich. An investigation announced on December 30, 2005 will review contracts between the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority and vendors who signed leases to occupy the recently remodeled Illinois Tollway oases. Fitzgerald's office is investigating possible conflicts of interest between these vendors and one of Blagojevich's top fundraisers, Antoin Rezko.

In March 2006, former Chicago City Clerk James Laski pled guilty to pocketing nearly $50,000 in bribes for steering city business to two trucking companies. Thus far Laski is the highest-ranking Chicago official and Daley administration employee brought down by Fitzgerald's office in conjunction with the Hired Truck Program scandal.

U.S. Senator Peter Fitzgerald chose not to run for reelection in 2004, leaving Patrick Fitzgerald without a congressional patron. In the summer of 2005, there were rumors that he would not be reappointed to a second four-year term in retaliation for his conduct in investigations into corruption in Illinois and Chicago government, as well as for his investigation of the Plame scandal.  As of May 15, 2007, those "rumors" had not been realized.

[Pakuni]

clinton had something like 467 pardons during his 8 years in term (i think 100 on the last day in office).  W has around 100 so far i believe.

As far as commutations, W is in the single digits while Clinton had between 60-80.  i cant remember exact numbers.  seriously unlike impeachment boy, W has not abused the commutations/pardons. 

when are liberals going to learn to grow up.

If using one's executive authority to commute the sentence of a political ally and friend in a case totally absent of injustice doesn't qualify as an abuse of power, then what does?
Scooter Libby's sentence was commuted because the President didn't want his friend to have to go to prison. Period. Not because Scooter has health issues that would make his imprisonment an extreme hardship. Not because there are questions regarding the fairness of his trial. Not because there are questions about his guilt.
But because he's the President's pal.
That is an abuse of power.

As for Clinton's use of his executive authority:

1. Does volume in an of itself = abuse?
2. Why do Bush's defenders also justify his wrongful actions by pointing out wrongful actions by Clinton? It's a pretty lame defense. It's also funny that you suggest liberals "grow up" while using the "he did it too" argument to defend Bush.

[jutaw22mu]

you would be naive to say that clintons pardons and commutations werent also political allies.  as for scooter libby, i have no problems with his sentence being commuted. 

the volume of commutations and pardons allowed by clinton was no doubt abuse.  clinton was loved by all liberals.  liberals hate bush solely on the basis of his conservativism.  they cant overlook their blind hatred of bush to see many of the good things he has done for this country.  it disgusts me how whenever W does something, the democrats can find absolutely no good in it.  the positions most liberals take on issues is disgusting to me, but if we were unfortunate enough to have hillary clinton (or even obama who is ridiculous) elected into office, i would still be behind them as our president.  sure there are things they will do that i wont like but they will also do some good things for this country (i hope) and i will recognize that. 

its impossible to debate with a liberal because all it ever turns into is a argument.  when they run out of things to say they start calling you close-minded.  grow up, our president isnt all that bad (to say he's the worst is deplorable).  america is still a strong country and a wonderful place to live.  there are things that are wrong with society, but they weren't caused by this president.  they were caused by previous administrations (both democrat and republican).

[Pakuni]

you would be naive to say that clintons pardons and commutations werent also political allies.  as for scooter libby, i have no problems with his sentence being commuted. 

Which is why I didn't say "clintons pardons and commutations werent also political allies".
No doubt some of them were. That, however, makes Libby's commutation no less shameful.
I suspect the reason you and Chico's have no problem with Libby's commutation has much less to do with justice than his political party.

And, if I'm to understand your concluding statement, President GW Bush cannot be held responsible for not one of America's problems (including a boondoggle of a war he started), but we can blame everybody who served his office before him?
Hmmmm.

[Murffieus]

The thing that allowed GWB to be able to justify his commutation is the fact that the presiding judge imposed a sentence which was far two exceesive (2 1/2 years) for the crime. Had the judge given Scooter 6 months, GWB would have had a hard time justifying commutung that (at this time) without looking like he disrespected the court system (the verdict itself)!

[gjreda]

The thing that allowed GWB to be able to justify his commutation is the fact that the presiding judge imposed a sentence which was far two exceesive (2 1/2 years) for the crime. Had the judge given Scooter 6 months, GWB would have had a hard time justifying commutung that (at this time) without looking like he disrespected the court system (the verdict itself)!

FYI - Tony Snow said in the Rose Garden the next day that the President felt any jail time at all would have been excessive so this argument does not hold.  Tony Snow implied that W would have done the same even if it was an "inexcessive" six month sentence.

[Pakuni]

The thing that allowed GWB to be able to justify his commutation is the fact that the presiding judge imposed a sentence which was far two exceesive (2 1/2 years) for the crime. Had the judge given Scooter 6 months, GWB would have had a hard time justifying commutung that (at this time) without looking like he disrespected the court system (the verdict itself)!

Excessive to who?
Certainly not to sentencing Judge Reggie Walton, a career prosecutor and judge who was appointed to his post by none other than George W. Bush.
And certainly not to a Republican-appointed federal prosecutor (Fitzgerald) who sought a sentence in the 30-37 month range.

And not even to George W. Bush ... if the defendant in question isn't a pal. Just as Victor Rita, a decorated veteran who is doing 33 months in prison for a nearly identical crime as Libby's. As you'll see in the story below, the Bush Administration argued before the U.S. Supreme Court that 33 months was not an excessive sentence for a previously law-abiding government worker convicted of perjury.

Similarly, in a case decided two weeks ago by the United States Supreme Court and widely discussed by legal specialists in light of the Libby case, the Justice Department persuaded the court to affirm the 33-month sentence of a defendant whose case closely resembled that against Mr. Libby. The defendant, Victor A. Rita, was, like Mr. Libby, convicted of perjury, making false statements to federal agents and obstruction of justice.Mr. Rita has performed extensive government service, just as Mr. Libby has. Mr. Rita served in the armed forces for more than 25 years, receiving 35 commendations, awards and medals. Like Mr. Libby, Mr. Rita had no criminal history for purposes of the federal sentencing guidelines.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/04/washington/04commute.html

So, if you lie to impede a federal investigation and don't know the President, 33 months is appropriate.
If you lie to impede a federal investigation and do know the President, 30 months is excessive.
Do I understand that correctly?

[ChicosBailBonds]

We also conveniently forget about Clinton's pardons and how they came about...can we say QUID PRO QUO.  And yes, it happens on both sides


Example


Rick Hendrick -

Hendrick, owner of a major car dealership and NASCAR team owner, was convicted for mail fraud in 1997.
Hendrick was on the Board of Directors of NationsBank.
Hendrick's friend Hugh McColl was the chairman of NationsBank at that time.
NationsBank merged with Bank of America
Hugh McColl became chairman and CEO of Bank of America
Rick Hendrick requested a pardon from Bill Clinton
Bank of America chairman Hugh McColl wrote a letter to Bill Clinton recommending a pardon for Rick Hendrick
On December 7, 2000, Hugh McColl announced that Bank of America would donate $500,000 to the Clinton Foundation
On December 21, 2000, Bill Clinton granted a pardon to Rick Hendrick.



Example

Dale Bumpers buying a pardon for Archie Schaffer.

Example

Marc Rich who's wife Denise piled on the donations to the Clintons in exchange for a pardon. 

Example

Braswell and Vignalli.

Clinton also pardoned carnival operators Edgar and Vonna Jo Gregory. How did carnival operators get on his radar? Turns out they had loaned Hillary's brother, Tony Rodham, $107,000, which he never repaid. He didn't have to, as it turns out. Clinton stamped that debt "paid in full" with his pardons.

Then there was Carlos Vignali, a cocaine trafficker whose sentence Clinton commuted. And Almon Glenn Braswell, who was found guilty of mail fraud and perjury but won a pardon.

Why the pardon? Braswell and Vignali each paid Hillary's other brother, Hugh Rodham, $200,000, hoping he could win them clemency. Rodham returned the money, but only after the scandal became public.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You're right Pakuni, Espy didn't need the pardon...under that tremendous "equality under the law" it was only the people that actually gave to Espy that went to prison...the folks at Tyson Foods and Sun Diamond.

Apparently Espy knew nothing of it...   


I think Rostenkowski's pardon is still the one to beat the band...that one and Roger Clinton's....or the worst one of all....16 KNOWN PUERTO RICAN TERRORISTS (FALN) that set off more than 130 bombs in the US and elsewhere (killing 6 and wounding hundreds) all in an effort to help Hillary get those votes in New York city.  Shameful.






Friday, January 24, l975 NYC FALN bombing

[Pakuni]

I think Rostenkowski's pardon is still the one to beat the band...that one and Roger Clinton's....or the worst one of all....16 KNOWN PUERTO RICAN TERRORISTS (FALN) that set off more than 130 bombs in the US and elsewhere (killing 6 and wounding hundreds) all in an effort to help Hillary get those votes in New York city.  Shameful.

Second verse, same as the first.

Again, why do you continue to defend Bush's shameful behavior by citing Clinton's shameful behavior? Why do you seem to believe Bush's shady moves are somehow mitigated by Clinton's shady moves ... the latter being things you, no doubt, saw as outrageous.
The obvious answer, it seems, is your partisanship. You're more willing to accept unethical behavior so long as it's done by a person belonging to your political party of choice.
What Clinton did is not relevant. His wrongs don't make Bush's wrongs right.

And I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why 33 months in prison is appropriate for one perjurer with no prior criminal record and a history of distinguished service to his country, but no prison time at all is appropriate for another.

[Phi Iota Gamma 84]

Pardoning your own bad employees - shame shame

Just resign for america's sake

I won't be presumptious enough to use "for [all of] america's sake"

I would suggest for the sake of the USA.  In addition to the Prez please lets add all of the Senators and Representatives that have been there way too long (Byrd, Kennedy, Hatch, Conyers, Sensenbrenner, Obey, Feingold, and about 500+ more)  then we really would have change.

[mu03eng]

I was absolutely echo your statement Phi.  Needs a completely clean sweep and start fresh.  Everyone of the senators, congressmen, and the president needs to be replaced.  I think this election cycle might actually be the time for a third party to develop.  A lot of centrists are disillusioned and fed of with whack jobs on both sides of the spectrum.

We'll see, I'm sure we are getting ready for another 4 years of more of the same, oh well.