Comment On One Aspect Of The PSU Sanctions

[🏀]

Ah, so we have reached the "absurd hyperbole" point of the discussion...

Wow. Yes we have.

[Bocephys]

Ah, so we have reached the "absurd hyperbole" point of the discussion...

Time for Hitler?

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I love the whole "any sanction will disrupt the life of someone, somewhere, so I don't think there should be any sanction but I know this is unpalatable with people so I won't offer an alternative."

[warriorchick]

I love the whole "any sanction will disrupt the life of someone, somewhere, so I don't think there should be any sanction but I know this is unpalatable with people so I won't offer an alternative."

Exactly.  Is there such a thing as a punishment that doesn't affect innocent people unfairly?  What about when you and your buddy plan to go to the movies, but your buddy got grounded, and now you can't go?

What about all of the kids that grow up in poverty because their knucklehead fathers are sitting in prison instead of supporting them?

How about the fact that I have to pay taxes to feed and house said knuckleheads?   

[Pakuni]

I have a serious question with the actions taken by the NCAA against Penn State. While I loathe what Jerry Sandusky did and what the university did to cover the problem up (we Catholics know well all about cover-ups of similar actions, don't we), the NCAA's sanctions are absurd and akin to closing the barn door after the cows have trampled the neighbor's neighbor's neighbor's fence and now are out grazing in the median of Interstate 94.

Taking away victories, for one, is usually reserved for when a team uses an illegal player, such as what happened when USC used OJ Mayo or Reggie Bush. I suspect this was more done for the NCAA's sake to avoid the embarrassment of having to deal with Joe Pa in perpetuity. What illegal player did Penn State play? What are you saying about the efforts of hundreds of NCAA qualified Division 1 athletes from 1998 to 2011. You didn't punish the university as the money from the games has been collected and spent. You punished the young men whose efforts have forever been erased from the NCAA's memory

As far as institutional control over the football team goes, you have to be kidding, right? Is this not the NCAA who takes advantage of often under-privileged athletes, too often offers an education that comparatively few are trained to capitalize on? Is this not the NCAA that pays players not a dime for their services, which make millions for member institutions? Is this not legalized monopoly that takes a players' image and pays him or her not a dime in perpetuity despite using their image to market forever and ever?

Hey NCAA, You feel good about fining Penn State $60 million. But you took it from university operations. Think about it next time Penn State increases tuition at twice the rate of inflation -- or more. Think about it when a promising piece of research is cancelled because someone had to pay a fine.

The real fact is that we have met the enemy and it is ourselves. The NCAA is a joke. Al knew it in the 1960s and 1970s -- when it went after him for being outspoken and likely for winning with heretofore unseen levels of integrated basketball teams (yes, Adolph Rupp, we DO remember!). We've known it recently in the greed surrounding "conference realignment." We see it in the pettiness of the NCAA tournament, who gets in and who does not and we see it in the sanctimoniousness of NCAA officials when someone goes rogue.

I'll say it again, what happened at Penn State was terrible. But, management has changed, the football coach was fired and the University president was ushered from office. Short of lining up the students and shooting them, I'm not sure what else you can do.

In court, when determining sentence, a judge is asked to consider not only appropriate punishment for the guilty party, but also deterrent so as to discourage similar acts by others.
Whether that's actually prevented a crime, I don't know.
But you can bet what's happened to Penn State will have ADs and coaches across the country thinking long and hard about the potential consequences of such horrendous behavior. And that's a good thing. I certainly have no problem with the NCAA making an example out of Penn State.

[Hards Alumni]

In court, when determining sentence, a judge is asked to consider not only appropriate punishment for the guilty party, but also deterrent so as to discourage similar acts by others.
Whether that's actually prevented a crime, I don't know.
But you can bet what's happened to Penn State will have ADs and coaches across the country thinking long and hard about the potential consequences of such horrendous behavior. And that's a good thing. I certainly have no problem with the NCAA making an example out of Penn State.

Retribution

Deterrence

Incapacitation

Rehabilitation

[Lennys Tap]

Retribution

Deterrence

Incapacitation

Rehabilitation

I had a philosophy teacher at MU who felt that retribution was barbaric and deterrence a myth. He thought prison should be nothing more than a rehab center. Even as a very green 19 yr old I found his naivetee incredible.

[Benny B]

Just think what could have been (or wouldn't have happened) had that ball been knocked loose.

[TallTitan34]

Just a note:  The rule allowing players to transfer to school who have no remaining scholarships only applies to this year.  Should they keep the player the following year, they would be one scholarship over.

[TallTitan34]

Just think what could have been (or wouldn't have happened) had that ball been knocked loose.

Awesome picture.

[RawdogDX]

I don't want to go down the rabbit hole, I'll only lose because everyone "knows" what happened.  But just for the record, even in the Freeh report Sandusky's retirement had NOTHING to do with the 98 incident, he was already retiring, merely negotiating his out terms.  I would agree that Schultz at a minimum knew something as the head of University police as he turned everything over to university police and the DA.  However the DA said there was nothing to see.

If they out Sandusky in 2001, there is no way there is blow back.  They turned him in 98, nothing happened, if they tried again in 2001 and it stuck who's going to be pissed???  Are the suppose to be prosecutors too? There was zero incentive to cover something up in 2001.

Two personal accounts of a guy messing with kids, one with a graphic d to a account.  He runs a kids foundation and he's always bringing a new one around to big games, without his wife, sharing a hotel room.  He's always rubbing on kids legs in front of people.  Janitors are taking smoke breaks when they see him pull in...

You realize that the report only included what they could prove.  I would bet anything that this conversation was had dozens (if not 100s) of times at Sandusky's Play Pen*:
Sandusky walks by with one of his angels** quite possibly cupping his ass
"Did you hear that he's is a perv?"
"Who"
"Sandusky, he's always rubbing up on those kids he brings around"
"Sick"

At that point it's institutionalized evil.  Keep in mind that they kept sending him out on recruiting trips pretty much till the day the news broke and that educators are held to a higher standard than the rest of us.

*am i the first one to come up with that?
**how could you know and read the book without getting sick?

[mu03eng]

Two personal accounts of a guy messing with kids, one with a graphic d to a account.  He runs a kids foundation and he's always bringing a new one around to big games, without his wife, sharing a hotel room.  He's always rubbing on kids legs in front of people.  Janitors are taking smoke breaks when they see him pull in...

You realize that the report only included what they could prove.  I would bet anything that this conversation was had dozens (if not 100s) of times at Sandusky's Play Pen*:
Sandusky walks by with one of his angels** quite possibly cupping his ass
"Did you hear that he's is a perv?"
"Who"
"Sandusky, he's always rubbing up on those kids he brings around"
"Sick"

At that point it's institutionalized evil.  Keep in mind that they kept sending him out on recruiting trips pretty much till the day the news broke and that educators are held to a higher standard than the rest of us.

*am i the first one to come up with that?
**how could you know and read the book without getting sick?

Not defending, just correcting facts in your story.

-Sandusky's last recruiting trip was 1997.
-There is no d to a account.  McQuery's testimony never mentions d to a....that was put into the Grand Jury presentment by the DA to amplify and inflame the grand jury and the public.  In fact, the only charges Sandusky was acquitted on were those associated with the McQuery incident.

The GJ presentment did what it was meant to do, it smoked out more victims so charges could be brought and this monster put in jail.  However, to say there is d to a account in there is simply not true.  Page 7 of GJ presentment is where that reference appears and its the summation of of the presenting DA(or AG, I can't remember).

Again not a defense, but we should at least get the facts right before executing people.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Not defending, just correcting facts in your story.

-Sandusky's last recruiting trip was 1997.
-There is no d to a account.  McQuery's testimony never mentions d to a....that was put into the Grand Jury presentment by the DA to amplify and inflame the grand jury and the public.  In fact, the only charges Sandusky was acquitted on were those associated with the McQuery incident.

The GJ presentment did what it was meant to do, it smoked out more victims so charges could be brought and this monster put in jail.  However, to say there is d to a account in there is simply not true.  Page 7 of GJ presentment is where that reference appears and its the summation of of the presenting DA(or AG, I can't remember).

Again not a defense, but we should at least get the facts right before executing people.

Amazing how something that is not a defense sounds and writes exactly like a defense.

[MerrittsMustache]

Not defending, just correcting facts in your story.

-Sandusky's last recruiting trip was 1997.
-There is no d to a account.  McQuery's testimony never mentions d to a....that was put into the Grand Jury presentment by the DA to amplify and inflame the grand jury and the public.  In fact, the only charges Sandusky was acquitted on were those associated with the McQuery incident.

The GJ presentment did what it was meant to do, it smoked out more victims so charges could be brought and this monster put in jail.  However, to say there is d to a account in there is simply not true.  Page 7 of GJ presentment is where that reference appears and its the summation of of the presenting DA(or AG, I can't remember).

Again not a defense, but we should at least get the facts right before executing people.

It was a joke among students at PSU that Sandusky was a pedophile because he always had young boys around him.

Sandusky's last official recruiting trip may have been in 1997, but he was taking recruiting trips as recently as 2011. There have been several recruits who have mentioned this.

[The Equalizer]

It is doubtful that the University's endowment may be used to pay the fine.  By law, an endowment generally may be invested and only the annual earnings may be paid to support a program that the donor designates.  There may be some wriggle room with some of the funds, but don't be mislead by this.  Endowments are usually not very fungible. 

But money is. 

Example: PSU cuts academic expenses to pay the fine.  They use the endowment fund to restore programs cut due to reductions in adacemic funding.

[mu03eng]

Amazing how something that is not a defense sounds and writes exactly like a defense.

Point out where I defend anything.  I never said anything that followed was wrong or incorrect.  The facts are damning enough, no need to lie about stuff to really really execute them.

[mu03eng]

It was a joke among students at PSU that Sandusky was a pedophile because he always had young boys around him.

Sandusky's last official recruiting trip may have been in 1997, but he was taking recruiting trips as recently as 2011. There have been several recruits who have mentioned this.

There was one "recruit" and it was later debunked that Sandusky talked to him and that PSU wasn't even recruiting him.  Find me any evidence to the contrary and I'll change my tune on that.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

So what, exactly, is your point? People are going to hard after Sandusky? The people running PSU are only 50% as evil as Hitler instead of 75%?

[mu03eng]

So what, exactly, is your point? People are going to hard after Sandusky? The people running PSU are only 50% as evil as Hitler instead of 75%?

Apparently hyperbole can go both ways.  Not sure how you can interpret anything I said as leniency on Sandusky, the dude should be beaten to death with a wet noodle.

My point is that if you can't be bothered to know the facts than you shouldn't be rendering judgement.  And if we are going to get outraged about stuff that isn't true, we have a good chance of missing the lessons that should be learned from this.

We should be talking about how do you identify a pedophile and how do you do so when they are someone close(family, friend, pastor, etc) to you.  Instead everyone is making it out to be the easiest thing to spot and take action on in this situation, which is patently false.  Everyone is so caught up in vengeance and holier than thou attitude that they don't realize the very same thing could happen in their family, organization, or school.

[GGGG]

We should be talking about how do you identify a pedophile and how do you do so when they are someone close(family, friend, pastor, etc) to you.  Instead everyone is making it out to be the easiest thing to spot and take action on in this situation, which is patently false.  Everyone is so caught up in vengeance and holier than thou attitude that they don't realize the very same thing could happen in their family, organization, or school.

You can dish out punishment to PSU and use this as a teachable moment about pedophilia.  This isn't a zero sum game.

[mu03eng]

You can dish out punishment to PSU and use this as a teachable moment about pedophilia.  This isn't a zero sum game.

Absolutely correct, and I'm not arguing for alteration of the punishment, it is what it is.  Lets just get the facts right otherwise we will miss the point

[axaguy]

We should be talking about how do you identify a pedophile and how do you do so when they are someone close(family, friend, pastor, etc) to you.  Instead everyone is making it out to be the easiest thing to spot and take action on in this situation, which is patently false.  Everyone is so caught up in vengeance and holier than thou attitude that they don't realize the very same thing could happen in their family, organization, or school.


You hit the nail squarely on the head right here!!! Everyone acts like a very easy, obvious, "no brainer" event was missed and that everyone else would have easily and quickly identified and responded to the events. That is utter BS and absolute 20/20 hindsight!!!! I don't believe many people now judging PSU and the people under scrutiny would have taken any better, swifter or more conclusove steps.
What if the next criminal IS your brother? Cousin? Boss? Priest? Be honest...
It's not as easy as it looks.............................
But think of the kids, and that one of them was yours.................

[GGGG]

We should be talking about how do you identify a pedophile and how do you do so when they are someone close(family, friend, pastor, etc) to you.  Instead everyone is making it out to be the easiest thing to spot and take action on in this situation, which is patently false.  Everyone is so caught up in vengeance and holier than thou attitude that they don't realize the very same thing could happen in their family, organization, or school.

I'm fairly certain that if I see someone having anal sex with a child in a shower that I have correctly identified a "pedophile."  Maybe I'm just psychic that way.

[Benny B]

You hit the nail squarely on the head right here!!! Everyone acts like a very easy, obvious, "no brainer" event was missed and that everyone else would have easily and quickly identified and responded to the events. That is utter BS and absolute 20/20 hindsight!!!! I don't believe many people now judging PSU and the people under scrutiny would have taken any better, swifter or more conclusove steps.
What if the next criminal IS your brother? Cousin? Boss? Priest? Be honest...
It's not as easy as it looks.............................
But think of the kids, and that one of them was yours.................

McQuery didn't seem to have any problem identifying and responding.  The janitors didn't seem to have any problem identifying.  Victim #4's mother didn't seem to have any problem identifying.  This isn't a case of "I should have recognized, my bad" that you're implying.  It's a case of "I recognized but chose to conceal."  Sure, McQuery should have gone to the police months later when he recognized nothing was being done, but he did make a report.  Others made reports, too.  There was a very deliberate effort on the part of JVP, Curley and Schultz to coverup multiple felonies, the occurrences of which they were clearly aware.

[Pakuni]

McQuery didn't seem to have any problem identifying and responding.  The janitors didn't seem to have any problem identifying.  Victim #4's mother didn't seem to have any problem identifying.  This isn't a case of "I should have recognized, my bad" that you're implying.  It's a case of "I recognized but chose to conceal."  Sure, McQuery should have gone to the police months later when he recognized nothing was being done, but he did make a report.  Others made reports, too.  There was a very deliberate effort on the part of JVP, Curley and Schultz to coverup multiple felonies, the occurrences of which they were clearly aware.

No, McQuery should have gone to police that night, not months later. He didn't need to talk to his daddy. He didn't need to talk to JoePa. He was a friggin' 28-year-old man when he stumbled upon Sandusky raping a little boy. 
The correct response would have been:

1. Intervene (preferably with an a**-kicking of the pedophile).
2. Ensure the child's safety and health.
3. Call police immediately thereafter.

McQuery also concealed this by his failure to act appropriately, is no less culpable than anyone else involved in covering it up. He put his own interests ahead of those kids.