If Buzz's 5th year is equal to Crean's 5th year...

[tower912]

....this board will completely lose it's collective mind.    NIT (OK, MU is in the BEast now and Crean went from CUSA), a complete bomb of a recruiting class   (Mason, Matthews, Bell, Christian), especially with the citizenship exhibited by a couple of members.     All of that with two future NBA players and the second best big Crean ever had on the team.   
     For all of the unfair criticism and vitriol leveled at Crean since he left, his 5th and 6th seasons at MU seem to get overlooked, and they were not good.   

[Dawson Rental]

Tower912,

     Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you critical of people who can't let Crean go?  And here you are leaving raw meat out in order to draw them out.

[tower912]

True, Murs.   But there is vitriol and there is fact.     The fact is he won 190 games and went to a final 4.    The fact is he left the program in a better state than he found it.    The fact is he worked his ass off to promote the hell out of MU basketball.  He shepherded the program into the BEast.  I am eternally grateful for all of these things.    But it also a fact that his 5th and 6th year were disappointments.    At the time, I was on the js website defending the Crean to the hilt with chicos against Abe Froman.    Looking back, Crean did not do a great job those two seasons.   He brought in two sub-par classes in a row.    He entered his first BEast season with an all-frosh backcourt and managed to succeed.   Kudos.   
   If Buzz's 5th and 6th seasons were equal to Crean's, what would be the response around here?

[bilsu]

I think you need to throw out there first two years as it largly reflects the team they were left with.

Crean went 26-7 and 27-6, Buzz went 22-15 and 27-8. I expect Buzz's to do better than 19-12 the next two years and better than 20-11 the year after.

[Lennys Tap]

    
   If Buzz's 5th and 6th seasons were equal to Crean's, what would be the response around here?

Hiroshima

[Rubie Q]

True, Murs.   But there is vitriol and there is fact.     The fact is he won 190 games and went to a final 4.    The fact is he left the program in a better state than he found it.    The fact is he worked his ass off to promote the hell out of MU basketball.  He shepherded the program into the BEast.  I am eternally grateful for all of these things.    But it also a fact that his 5th and 6th year were disappointments.    At the time, I was on the js website defending the Crean to the hilt with chicos against Abe Froman.    Looking back, Crean did not do a great job those two seasons.   He brought in two sub-par classes in a row.    He entered his first BEast season with an all-frosh backcourt and managed to succeed.   Kudos.   
   If Buzz's 5th and 6th seasons were equal to Crean's, what would be the response around here?

Based on the response to the "Buzz to SMU" rumors, I think there'd be a lot of people calling for Larry Williams' head.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Based on the response to the "Buzz to SMU" rumors, I think there'd be a lot of people calling for Larry Williams' head.

A really poor year would probably polarize Buzz.

The big Buzz fans would back him all of the way, even if the team is bad.
The Buzz haters would finally come out of the woodwork and be very vocal.

Fans are an emotional bunch, and losing will draw the hatred out of some and they would nitpick Buzz to death (for no good reason, I might add).

For example, look at everything Howland has accomplished, and then look how he was treated by some of the fans this year.

[Rubie Q]

A really poor year would probably polarize Buzz.

The big Buzz fans would back him all of the way, even if the team is bad.
The Buzz haters would finally come out of the woodwork and be very vocal.

Fans are an emotional bunch, and losing will draw the hatred out of some and they would nitpick Buzz to death (for no good reason, I might add).

For example, look at everything Howland has accomplished, and then look how he was treated by some of the fans this year.

The difference, in my mind anyway: Howland is kind of a prickly guy, so when he's not winning, he doesn't have much good will to fall back on.

Buzz, on the other hand, has won a lot of people over with his talk about character and loyalty, etc. etc. etc. Though, to be sure: the winning is also a major factor for Buzz. I sometimes wonder what the reaction to all the off-court issues would've been if we hadn't made the Sweet 16 run in 2011.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The difference, in my mind anyway: Howland is kind of a prickly guy, so when he's not winning, he doesn't have much good will to fall back on.

Buzz, on the other hand, has won a lot of people over with his talk about character and loyalty, etc. etc. etc.

Good point.

Personality and "liking" a guy is important for a lot of people.

But, all of the great character and loyalty stuff will still get critiqued if they don't win. It will be something like:

"Hey Buzz, spend less time giving life lessons and more time giving basketball lessons. This team is terrible."

Just the nature of the beast, I suppose.

[bilsu]

19-12 is winning and we were having a worse year two years ago, but went 2-1 in conference tournament and 2-1 in NCAA to finish 22-15. Success can be a fine line. We could of gone 0-1 in Big East tournament and lost a first round NIT game and finished 18-15 that year. Buzz was lucky (or skilled enough) that team finished strong. The year before that we won three straight overtime road games that got us to NCAA tournament and a 22-12 record. Lose anyone of those three and we probably go to NIT. Do not get me wrong, I love Buzz, but he avoided disasters two years in a row that could of easily gone the other way. I will still be supporting him, if we went 15-17 this year. Fans need to realize that most programs do not go forever without having a bad season. The key is not having back to back bad seasons. It also helps, if fans expect the next year to be a better year. I suspect most fans on this board believe 2013-14 will be a better team than the 2012-2013 team regardless of how this coming year turns out.

[4everwarriors]

Crean is such a swallow, self-centered, transparent, egotistical prick who can't carry Buzz' boulder holder.

[Blackhat]

Crean is such a swallow, self-centered, transparent, egotistical prick who can't carry Buzz' boulder holder.

He got his team pre season ranked #1.   Think Crean is a very talented coach and now that he's paying the AAU coach for recruits the sky is the limit.   But I like Buzz's recruiting better at MU thus far (yet to land stud big though), his coaching has been good to very good with occassional terrible.

[NersEllenson]

19-12 is winning and we were having a worse year two years ago, but went 2-1 in conference tournament and 2-1 in NCAA to finish 22-15. Success can be a fine line. We could of gone 0-1 in Big East tournament and lost a first round NIT game and finished 18-15 that year. Buzz was lucky (or skilled enough) that team finished strong. The year before that we won three straight overtime road games that got us to NCAA tournament and a 22-12 record. Lose anyone of those three and we probably go to NIT. Do not get me wrong, I love Buzz, but he avoided disasters two years in a row that could of easily gone the other way. I will still be supporting him, if we went 15-17 this year. Fans need to realize that most programs do not go forever without having a bad season. The key is not having back to back bad seasons. It also helps, if fans expect the next year to be a better year. I suspect most fans on this board believe 2013-14 will be a better team than the 2012-2013 team regardless of how this coming year turns out.

Never apples to apples comparisons - Crean's 19-12 team was balling in C-USA and with 2 future NBA players - and he was in his 4th or 5th year - so all of his players/recruiting etc.  To look at Buzz in Year 2 with Mo Acker and company - with what was left on that roster - competing in the Big East which was the best league top to bottom 22-15 is better..with one NBA talent (Lazar).  Does anyone think this upcoming year's team would finish 19-12 in Conference USA?  That would be an apples to apples comparison - same league, same time on job, etc...

[cheebs09]

I agree Ners, but Jimmy was also on that team. Also, DJO may get drafted this summer, so there could be 3 NBA Players on that team.

[tower912]

Ners, that team had Lazar and Jimmy.   

[4everwarriors]

If Crean ever had an opportunity to two-step at WVU, it would be to the "Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairies."

[LAZER]

He got his team pre season ranked #1.

By Andy Katz?!

[buckchuckler]

 
     For all of the unfair criticism and vitriol leveled at Crean since he left, his 5th and 6th seasons at MU seem to get overlooked, and they were not good.   

A final four buys you some time.  Duh. 

[The Equalizer]

Never apples to apples comparisons - Crean's 19-12 team was balling in C-USA and with 2 future NBA players - and he was in his 4th or 5th year - so all of his players/recruiting etc.  To look at Buzz in Year 2 with Mo Acker and company - with what was left on that roster - competing in the Big East which was the best league top to bottom 22-15 is better..with one NBA talent (Lazar).  Does anyone think this upcoming year's team would finish 19-12 in Conference USA?  That would be an apples to apples comparison - same league, same time on job, etc...

Correction.  Buzz had two--and quite likely three--future NBA players on the roster in his second season (Butler, Hayward, DJO).  I think experience is also relevant. In 2005 Novak was a soph and Diener was a junior. In 2010 Hayward was a senior, Butler was a junior and DJO as a soph.  Plus, both Acker and Cubillan were much better players than people gave them credit for.

As you say, not an apples to apples comparision.

I'm really not sure why you malign Acker--we sure could have used a guy with his 49% 3 point shooting touch last year--which I belive stands as the record for an MU senior.  His career 3 point shooting is 4th all-time at MU.  Had he been on this years team, he would have easily started ahead of Cadougan.

 

[NersEllenson]

Correction.  Buzz had two--and quite likely three--future NBA players on the roster in his second season (Butler, Hayward, DJO).  I think experience is also relevant. In 2005 Novak was a soph and Diener was a junior. In 2010 Hayward was a senior, Butler was a junior and DJO as a soph.  Plus, both Acker and Cubillan were much better players than people gave them credit for.

As you say, not an apples to apples comparision.

I'm really not sure why you malign Acker--we sure could have used a guy with his 49% 3 point shooting touch last year--which I belive stands as the record for an MU senior.  His career 3 point shooting is 4th all-time at MU.  Had he been on this years team, he would have easily started ahead of Cadougan.
 

I don't want to get into another Crean versus Buzz battle...both are great for MU....the reality is, is that Buzz's team in Year 5 will not be playing in C-USA, and it will not be an NIT team.  The fall off from a Final Four team to a first round loser in the NIT with 2 future NBA players was pretty steep.  Crean > Buzz due to Final Four appearance, Buzz>Crean due to 2 Sweet 16s and so far 4 for 4 in NCAA's, and Buzz has 5 NCAA tourney wins in 4 years - which matches Crean's in 9 years at MU.

[brewcity77]

By Andy Katz?!

It's certainly early, but I doubt Katz is the only one that will have IU in the 1-spot. My vote would go to Louisville, but who else merits that position? UK and UNC lost too much. UCLA is too young. There will be other teams in the mix, but IU is as good a team as any to put up there.

[Goose]

Crean's 5th year was most disappointed season to me in last 30 years+. That was a building year to take program to next level and we failed big time. IMO TC lost the edge and knew in his heart he could not make it happen here. He did not pack it in completely but think the super high drive was gone. We needed a good to very god season that year to build on FF and it did not happen.

This upcoming season is big to me but in different way. Buzz has proven he can recruit at high level and down year would not hurt that. My biggest concern would be the conference uncertainty and other issues. We cannot afford to fold up the tent this upcoming season. If it would happen I am not off the Buzz bandwagon.

[jsglow]

I don't want to get into another Crean versus Buzz battle...both are great for MU....the reality is, is that Buzz's team in Year 5 will not be playing in C-USA, and it will not be an NIT team.  The fall off from a Final Four team to a first round loser in the NIT with 2 future NBA players was pretty steep.  Crean > Buzz due to Final Four appearance, Buzz>Crean due to 2 Sweet 16s and so far 4 for 4 in NCAA's, and Buzz has 5 NCAA tourney wins in 4 years - which matches Crean's in 9 years at MU.

I wonder how the decision by the Three Amigos to stay and support their new coach facilitated the success we're having now?  That first year gave Buzz a wonderful opportunity to learn and get his feet wet.  He's continually built from there.  I still believe that the Buzz sweet spot is the sprinkling of upperclassmen into the mix.  Usually that takes the form of a Juco but this year includes a plug-in graduate student.  No doubt Tom benefited from DWade but he has to be credited with bringing MU to 'high major' status once again.  Our only real legitimate complaint the the Colts 'Mayflower' departure.  

[jsglow]

Crean's 5th year was most disappointed season to me in last 30 years+. That was a building year to take program to next level and we failed big time. IMO TC lost the edge and knew in his heart he could not make it happen here. He did not pack it in completely but think the super high drive was gone. We needed a good to very god season that year to build on FF and it did not happen.

This upcoming season is big to me but in different way. Buzz has proven he can recruit at high level and down year would not hurt that. My biggest concern would be the conference uncertainty and other issues. We cannot afford to fold up the tent this upcoming season. If it would happen I am not off the Buzz bandwagon.

That's why Buzz is so important to the program.  Only Buzz could go from a tiny town in Texas to Navarro College to MU.  Only Buzz could make Jae the BEast POY.  Only Buzz could return MU to the pinnacle of college basketball. (I'm speaking relative to Crean.)  Tom was(is) an outstanding coach but needed a bigger platform to make that happen.  Buzz creates diamonds out of coal.  Crean has the ability to polish existing diamonds.

Someday I'd really love to see an Indiana/MU tournament matchup.

[NersEllenson]

I wonder how the decision by the Three Amigos to stay and support their new coach facilitated the success we're having now?  That first year gave Buzz a wonderful opportunity to learn and get his feet wet.  He's continually built from there.  I still believe that the Buzz sweet spot is the sprinkling of upperclassmen into the mix.  Usually that takes the form of a Juco but this year includes a plug-in graduate student.  No doubt Tom benefited from DWade but he has to be credited with bringing MU to 'high major' status once again.  Our only real legitimate complaint the the Colts 'Mayflower' departure.  

Agree completely...well said.