Gardner...

[MU82]

Disappointed with this year's freshmen? Happy about this year's freshmen?

Come see me a year from now and I'll let you know.

[hairy worthen]

Disappointed with this year's freshmen? Happy about this year's freshmen?

Come see me a year from now and I'll let you know.

2 years  from now would be better, sometimes 3.

[MU82]

2 years  from now would be better, sometimes 3.

You're probably right about that.

[Aughnanure]

Since you continue to bash me I will tell you. My expectations  for a freshman recruiting class would be to have the same level or better freshman then the other big east schools. I think that's a fair expectation....Freshman at the following Big East schools are having a bigger impact then any of our freshman:St. Johns, Providence, Rutgers, Notre Dame, UConn, South Florida, Louisville, Depaul, Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall. West Virginia is a push with Jabarie Hinds averaging about the same as Mayo. Syracuse does not because their team is stacked with upperclassmen. Cincy and Pitt did not have impact freshman either.

Virtually out of 16 teams in the big east we have one of the bottom 3 classes. Sorry that I believe we should be in at least the top half of the conference. I think that it is expected, but not happening.

That being said. It's funny to prove someone like you wrong who does no research before saying pointless things. If you would like me to go further and list stats for all Big East freshman I will, but your really not worth my time.

I think you just answered your own question. I guess your expectations are to be a worse team with freshmen that get better numbers. I'd rather be associated w/ Syracuse -a team that has and continues to develop its talent so it doesn't rely on freshmen.

[dwaderoy2004]

If you would like me to go further and list stats for all Big East freshman I will, but your really not worth my time.

St. Johns and Rutgers are totally different situations, as they are terrible teams with minutes to give away.  To that point, I believe St. Johns starts five freshman and Rutgers starts three.  Those guys are going to get their numbers by default.

Uconn has a better class, but it was also a top 3 rated class in the country once they added Drummond.

Providence is similar to Rutgers in that they are not good and had minutes to give away.  Henton is playing very well, averaging 14.2 ppg and 8.5 rpg, but that's in 37 mpg.  Mayo is averaging 8.1 and 2.6 in 21 minutes per game.  On a per minute basis, Mayo is actually outscoring Henton (.39 ppm to .38 ppm)  Providence has 2 other true freshman.  They have appeared in one game combined.  I would say advantage MU, or no worse than a push.

Depaul, again, is terrible.  They have three freshman.  The best is Crockett, who is averaging 8.3 ppg and 2.2 rpg in 18 minutes per game.  Basically identical numbers to Mayo.  The other two freshman average 5.1 ppg and 3.7 rpg combined in 27 mpg.  Again, I would say this is a push.

Nova is awful.  Pinkston is a redshirt freshman, and thus doesn't count.  The best true freshman is Hilliard, averaging 5.1 ppg and 2.5 rpg in 19 minutes.  Mayo is better in the same number of minutes.  The other three freshman combined average 8.9 ppg and 4.5 rpg in 45 mpg.  I would again say a push at worst, possible advantage MU for having the best freshman.

Notre Dame has one true freshman, Pat Connaughton (jerian grant is a redshirt freshman).  He averages 7.0 ppg and 4.6 rpg in 24 mpg.  Again, Mayo outscores him.  With our depth, advantage MU.

Seton Hall has 6 freshman.  The best is Cosby, averaging 8.3 ppg and 2.2 rpg in 30 mpg.  Mayo duplicates those numbers in 10 less mpg.  The other FIVE freshman combine to average 10.3 ppg and 7.1 rpg in 49 mpg.  Again, I would say push at worst, possible advantage MU for having the best freshman.

South Florida has one freshman in Anthony Collins.  He's been very good as their starting PG.  He averages 7.8 ppg, 2 rpg and 5.5 apg in 32 mpg.  Mayo outscores and outrebounds him in less minutes per game.  Again, I would say no worse than a push.

Louisville has 5 freshman. Behanan has been the best, averaging 9.3 ppg and 7.6 rpg in 25 mpg.  They also have Blackshear, who has been hurt, but is a stud.  The 3 other freshman average 3.8 ppg and 2.5 rpg   I give the edge to Louisville, but it's not clear cut since Blackshear has been hurt.

Georgetown has 5 freshman as well.  Otto Porter has been the best, averaging 8.7 ppg and 6.8 rpg in 29 mpg.  Mayo outscores him on a per minute basis, but Porter has been very good.  The rest of the freshmen average 11.9 ppg and 5.8 rpg in 44 mpg.  I would give the advantage to G-town but it's not overwhelming.

By your admittance, MU has a better class than Pitt, Cincy and Cuse.  Their class, as shown by the above statistics, is as good of a class as (or better than) Providence, ND, USF, Depaul, Nova, Seton Hall and WVU (your admittance).  The class is probably not as good as Rutgers, St. Johns, Uconn, Georgetown or Louisville.  In other words, this is an average class in the Big East, and a strong argument can be made that it is in the upper half.  But I'm curious to see what your statistics show...

[Clam Crowder]

Well played dwaderoy. We are getting more out of this recruiting class, and this team than any of us ever could have expected to start the year. We had posts of "Who is our leader?" before this year. Jae and DJO have answered that and led us to where we are. If there is no third option like Van, Todd, and Jamil have been in spurts in games we won't be doing too much.

[MU82]

It would be easier to tout our freshmen if Mayo was still playing like the November-December-January guy that had some overly excitable types worried he would be bolting early to the NBA.

Let's be honest ... offensively, he has been a disaster for more than a month now. I went from screaming for him to shoot to screaming at him to never shoot. He draws a few fouls with drives but just as often is out of control and jumps without knowing where he is going.

He is a good defender, though, and certainly appears to work hard. I continue to have hope that he will make the next step in 2012-13.

Derrick Wilson has done fine in his role. Anderson has been behind from the get-go and has shown precious little, so we'll see.

With our established players getting most minutes and with Buzz's shortened rotation, the best (and worst) grade we can give to our freshman is Incomplete. The same is true of most freshman classes in the Big East.

[Nukem2]

I had noticed the same thing when he was walking off after the WV game. Not real encouraging.

Davante kind of shuffles along injury or not.  Probably wearing a brace too.  Not sure what to make of it.

[PVMagic]

Davante kind of shuffles along injury or not.  Probably wearing a brace too.  Not sure what to make of it.

He was brace-less against UC.  From about 20 yards, he was definitely favoring his knee.  Still, meaningless, but did not look like a guy ready to go.

[MattyWarrior]

Over a month, I thought he would be running by now! We need him for the tourny

[MarquetteDano]

St. Johns and Rutgers are totally different situations, as they are terrible teams with minutes to give away.  To that point, I believe St. Johns starts five freshman and Rutgers starts three.  Those guys are going to get their numbers by default.

Uconn has a better class, but it was also a top 3 rated class in the country once they added Drummond.

Providence is similar to Rutgers in that they are not good and had minutes to give away.  Henton is playing very well, averaging 14.2 ppg and 8.5 rpg, but that's in 37 mpg.  Mayo is averaging 8.1 and 2.6 in 21 minutes per game.  On a per minute basis, Mayo is actually outscoring Henton (.39 ppm to .38 ppm)  Providence has 2 other true freshman.  They have appeared in one game combined.  I would say advantage MU, or no worse than a push.

Depaul, again, is terrible.  They have three freshman.  The best is Crockett, who is averaging 8.3 ppg and 2.2 rpg in 18 minutes per game.  Basically identical numbers to Mayo.  The other two freshman average 5.1 ppg and 3.7 rpg combined in 27 mpg.  Again, I would say this is a push.

Nova is awful.  Pinkston is a redshirt freshman, and thus doesn't count.  The best true freshman is Hilliard, averaging 5.1 ppg and 2.5 rpg in 19 minutes.  Mayo is better in the same number of minutes.  The other three freshman combined average 8.9 ppg and 4.5 rpg in 45 mpg.  I would again say a push at worst, possible advantage MU for having the best freshman.

Notre Dame has one true freshman, Pat Connaughton (jerian grant is a redshirt freshman).  He averages 7.0 ppg and 4.6 rpg in 24 mpg.  Again, Mayo outscores him.  With our depth, advantage MU.

Seton Hall has 6 freshman.  The best is Cosby, averaging 8.3 ppg and 2.2 rpg in 30 mpg.  Mayo duplicates those numbers in 10 less mpg.  The other FIVE freshman combine to average 10.3 ppg and 7.1 rpg in 49 mpg.  Again, I would say push at worst, possible advantage MU for having the best freshman.

South Florida has one freshman in Anthony Collins.  He's been very good as their starting PG.  He averages 7.8 ppg, 2 rpg and 5.5 apg in 32 mpg.  Mayo outscores and outrebounds him in less minutes per game.  Again, I would say no worse than a push.

Louisville has 5 freshman. Behanan has been the best, averaging 9.3 ppg and 7.6 rpg in 25 mpg.  They also have Blackshear, who has been hurt, but is a stud.  The 3 other freshman average 3.8 ppg and 2.5 rpg   I give the edge to Louisville, but it's not clear cut since Blackshear has been hurt.

Georgetown has 5 freshman as well.  Otto Porter has been the best, averaging 8.7 ppg and 6.8 rpg in 29 mpg.  Mayo outscores him on a per minute basis, but Porter has been very good.  The rest of the freshmen average 11.9 ppg and 5.8 rpg in 44 mpg.  I would give the advantage to G-town but it's not overwhelming.

By your admittance, MU has a better class than Pitt, Cincy and Cuse.  Their class, as shown by the above statistics, is as good of a class as (or better than) Providence, ND, USF, Depaul, Nova, Seton Hall and WVU (your admittance).  The class is probably not as good as Rutgers, St. Johns, Uconn, Georgetown or Louisville.  In other words, this is an average class in the Big East, and a strong argument can be made that it is in the upper half.  But I'm curious to see what your statistics show...

Great analysis.  I think it is fair to say Marquette does not have a Top Five freshmen class this year.  However saying we are in the bottom three seemed a bit over the top to me.

[PVMagic]

Mayo has twice been credited as our SOG.  The talent he showed early on isn't gone, and is bound to reappear eventually (hopefully soon).  DWil was instrumental in a win over a (then) top 10 team on the road.  Juan has shown flashes but is clearly not strong enough to play a ton of minutes.  Injuries have forced us to rely/need them more than we'd hoped, but I'll care more about where they rank as a class when they are sophs/juniors/seniors.

[LON]

Mayo has twice been credited as our SOG.  The talent he showed early on isn't gone, and is bound to reappear eventually (hopefully soon).  DWil was instrumental in a win over a (then) top 10 team on the road.  Juan has shown flashes but is clearly not strong enough to play a ton of minutes.  Injuries have forced us to rely/need them more than we'd hoped, but I'll care more about where they rank as a class when they are sophs/juniors/seniors.

But we just lost a game and our freshman looked bad.

/conveniently forgets the previous 29 games of the 2011-2012 season
//wanking motion

[77ncaachamps]

Freshmen need time to play and know how to pace themselves during a game.

It's hard when you get minutes here and there, and even harder when the HC has to play the vets to get the victory.

Give them time.

Juan and Mayo will be great seniors.

[Windyplayer]

Juan and Mayo will be great seniors.

I've seen nothing to indicate Anderson will be a great senior. He's a freshman so I'm not saying he can't become a productive player down the road, but he looks like a chicken with his head cut off out there, he has zero offensive prowess, and his defense leaves a ton to be desired. I cringe when he comes in games. He gives us nothing, but a warm body on the floor to give others a rest.

[THEultimateWARRIOR]

St. Johns and Rutgers are totally different situations, as they are terrible teams with minutes to give away.  To that point, I believe St. Johns starts five freshman and Rutgers starts three.  Those guys are going to get their numbers by default.

Uconn has a better class, but it was also a top 3 rated class in the country once they added Drummond.

Providence is similar to Rutgers in that they are not good and had minutes to give away.  Henton is playing very well, averaging 14.2 ppg and 8.5 rpg, but that's in 37 mpg.  Mayo is averaging 8.1 and 2.6 in 21 minutes per game.  On a per minute basis, Mayo is actually outscoring Henton (.39 ppm to .38 ppm)  Providence has 2 other true freshman.  They have appeared in one game combined.  I would say advantage MU, or no worse than a push.

Depaul, again, is terrible.  They have three freshman.  The best is Crockett, who is averaging 8.3 ppg and 2.2 rpg in 18 minutes per game.  Basically identical numbers to Mayo.  The other two freshman average 5.1 ppg and 3.7 rpg combined in 27 mpg.  Again, I would say this is a push.

Nova is awful.  Pinkston is a redshirt freshman, and thus doesn't count.  The best true freshman is Hilliard, averaging 5.1 ppg and 2.5 rpg in 19 minutes.  Mayo is better in the same number of minutes.  The other three freshman combined average 8.9 ppg and 4.5 rpg in 45 mpg.  I would again say a push at worst, possible advantage MU for having the best freshman.

Notre Dame has one true freshman, Pat Connaughton (jerian grant is a redshirt freshman).  He averages 7.0 ppg and 4.6 rpg in 24 mpg.  Again, Mayo outscores him.  With our depth, advantage MU.

Seton Hall has 6 freshman.  The best is Cosby, averaging 8.3 ppg and 2.2 rpg in 30 mpg.  Mayo duplicates those numbers in 10 less mpg.  The other FIVE freshman combine to average 10.3 ppg and 7.1 rpg in 49 mpg.  Again, I would say push at worst, possible advantage MU for having the best freshman.

South Florida has one freshman in Anthony Collins.  He's been very good as their starting PG.  He averages 7.8 ppg, 2 rpg and 5.5 apg in 32 mpg.  Mayo outscores and outrebounds him in less minutes per game.  Again, I would say no worse than a push.

Louisville has 5 freshman. Behanan has been the best, averaging 9.3 ppg and 7.6 rpg in 25 mpg.  They also have Blackshear, who has been hurt, but is a stud.  The 3 other freshman average 3.8 ppg and 2.5 rpg   I give the edge to Louisville, but it's not clear cut since Blackshear has been hurt.

Georgetown has 5 freshman as well.  Otto Porter has been the best, averaging 8.7 ppg and 6.8 rpg in 29 mpg.  Mayo outscores him on a per minute basis, but Porter has been very good.  The rest of the freshmen average 11.9 ppg and 5.8 rpg in 44 mpg.  I would give the advantage to G-town but it's not overwhelming.

By your admittance, MU has a better class than Pitt, Cincy and Cuse.  Their class, as shown by the above statistics, is as good of a class as (or better than) Providence, ND, USF, Depaul, Nova, Seton Hall and WVU (your admittance).  The class is probably not as good as Rutgers, St. Johns, Uconn, Georgetown or Louisville.  In other words, this is an average class in the Big East, and a strong argument can be made that it is in the upper half.  But I'm curious to see what your statistics show...

Why wouldn't you count a redshirt freshman? They are still considered freshman in my book. Very Good analysis but why all the bias for Mayo? I could go through every stat like that and say rebound per minute basis, assist per minute basis and so on like you did for Mayo for all the other guys. Don't get me wrong I love Mayo he has exceeded all expectations for himself. Its Juan and Derek that are disappointing.

And your crazy if you think that Colins isn't a better player. He is shooting 50% from the floor, ranks 6th in assists in the BEAST 5.5 apg, 85% free throw shooter, he has averaged 11.1 ppg as a point guard in the last 9 games. Steadily increased while Mayo has declined. Not sure how you get a push here.  

Also not sure how you think Providence is MU advantage...you listed the stats. Henton 14.2 ppg and 8.5 rpg! That's insane for a freshman. He could be averaging a double-double next year as a sophomore. They have similar ppm as you say but NO WAY Mayo has the impact like Henton has. He was getting those numbers playing with a terrible team around him.

The other teams I listed as having better freshman then MU fall under the redshirt category so it can go either way.

So if you don't think that redshirts count as "freshman" even though they are still considered freshman...you would be correct

[CTWarrior]

I've seen nothing to indicate Anderson will be a great senior. He's a freshman so I'm not saying he can't become a productive player down the road, but he looks like a chicken with his head cut off out there, he has zero offensive prowess, and his defense leaves a ton to be desired. I cringe when he comes in games. He gives us nothing, but a warm body on the floor to give others a rest.

Do you remember Vander Blue this time last year?  He was beyond horrific.  It is only a year later and he is a very solid contributor as a soph.  Now I think he will be very good by the end of his career, but I couldn't see it last year.  I would reserve judgement on Anderson just yet.  He's got tools, just needs a little seasoning.  I will concede that he is not at all helpful at the moment.

[mu03eng]

I've seen nothing to indicate Anderson will be a great senior. He's a freshman so I'm not saying he can't become a productive player down the road, but he looks like a chicken with his head cut off out there, he has zero offensive prowess, and his defense leaves a ton to be desired. I cringe when he comes in games. He gives us nothing, but a warm body on the floor to give others a rest.

Go back and look at JFB's first year in the program, not that much difference between him and Juan except there is more talent in front of Juan preventing him from playing.

Players make the biggest leap between freshmen and sophomore year.  I'm willing to bet this time next year we'll be talking about how high is Juan's ceiling.

[strotty]

I've seen nothing to indicate Anderson will be a great senior. He's a freshman so I'm not saying he can't become a productive player down the road, but he looks like a chicken with his head cut off out there, he has zero offensive prowess, and his defense leaves a ton to be desired. I cringe when he comes in games. He gives us nothing, but a warm body on the floor to give others a rest.

Please refer to "highlights" of Jimmy Butler as a sophomore before posting like this. Especially the first half of the season.

[LON]

Why wouldn't you count a redshirt freshman? They are still considered freshman in my book.

Why does everyone refer to a freshman as a "redshirt" or "true" if they are the exact same thing?  Doesn't that suggest that they are inherently different?

EDIT:
Also, you're establishing that you don't know shi*t when it comes to your grammar.

[Windyplayer]

Please refer to "highlights" of Jimmy Butler as a sophomore before posting like this. Especially the first half of the season.

Yes, he could be great (see qualifier in post), but at least Jimmy could hit the occassionally jumper and Blue would have flashes of his athleticism. There's not one thing that gives me hope (other than the occasional rebound) except the fact that he's young with room to grow--which is not to be understated, but not to be depended on either.

[dwaderoy2004]

Why wouldn't you count a redshirt freshman? They are still considered freshman in my book.

Well, because they have practiced with the team for a year already.  A true freshman has no such advantage.

Very Good analysis but why all the bias for Mayo? I could go through every stat like that and say rebound per minute basis, assist per minute basis and so on like you did for Mayo for all the other guys. Don't get me wrong I love Mayo he has exceeded all expectations for himself. Its Juan and Derek that are disappointing.

Go for it.  See if it helps you at all...

And your crazy if you think that Colins isn't a better player. He is shooting 50% from the floor, ranks 6th in assists in the BEAST 5.5 apg, 85% free throw shooter, he has averaged 11.1 ppg as a point guard in the last 9 games. Steadily increased while Mayo has declined. Not sure how you get a push here.  

Because Mayo outscores and outrebounds him in 11 less minutes per game.  Mayo shoots 79% from the free throw line.  I would agree that Collins has had more impact than Mayo.  But he's USF's only Freshman.  Derrick Wilson started, on the road, against Wisconsin.  And we won.  I say push.

Also not sure how you think Providence is MU advantage...you listed the stats. Henton 14.2 ppg and 8.5 rpg! That's insane for a freshman. He could be averaging a double-double next year as a sophomore. They have similar ppm as you say but NO WAY Mayo has the impact like Henton has. He was getting those numbers playing with a terrible team around him.

He's averaging those number in 37 mpg.  The one game this year that Mayo played more than 30 minutes, he went for 22, 5 and 4.  Henton gets those numbers cause they have no one else.  And the rest of the recruiting class has played ONE GAME COMBINED.  Wilson, at least, provides valuable minutes.  For the whole class, again, I say advantage MU, or no worse than a push.

Your criteria was based on the entire freshman recruiting CLASS, not the best individual player in each class.  I think I was pretty objective.  If you want to lay out your statistical analysis, be my guest, and we can compare.

[AZWarrior]

Go back and look at JFB's first year in the program, not that much difference between him and Juan except there is more talent in front of Juan preventing him from playing.

Players make the biggest leap between freshmen and sophomore year.  I'm willing to bet this time next year we'll be talking about how high is Juan's ceiling.

Well said.  Some of the things said about JFB early in his MU career.....well, just say the sayer NEVER expected to see JFB in a Bulls uniform.   

[Windyplayer]

I'm willing to bet this time next year we'll be talking about how high is Juan's ceiling.

For the record, I hope you're right.

[MUMac]

I've seen nothing to indicate Anderson will be a great senior. He's a freshman so I'm not saying he can't become a productive player down the road, but he looks like a chicken with his head cut off out there, he has zero offensive prowess, and his defense leaves a ton to be desired. I cringe when he comes in games. He gives us nothing, but a warm body on the floor to give others a rest.

He will grow.  Remember, he missed so much time early with the foot, then suspension, then the shoulder.  He has not had the normal development platform that a Freshman typically has.  His biggest issue, though, is his weight/strength.  That will come.  Give him the offseason and full summer to work with Todd. 

Far too early to give up on a kid.  As Al always said, "the best thing about a Freshman is they become a Sophomore."