Scout 2008 Top 100

[MUDPT]

Harrison, I also Garcia, knock my old high school Valparaiso in the regional championship.  He was the best player on the court, as a 19 year old sophomore, better than the top 100 players going to Purdue (all 3 of them).  I know for a fact that Crean did not have any contact with either of the guys from Valparaiso.

[77ncaachamps]

we need to avoid the Trend, Lott, kinsella blunders too.

Agreed.

When was the last time a TRUE juco (not prep school recruit) made an impact at MU?

I hate when Crean feels he needs to use an unused scholly on a JUCO player during the Springtime...just to fill out his roster only to get rid of him somehow/someway or hold onto him and waste a roster space.

[OneMadWarrior]

First off For most of those schoosl they can fall otu of their arenas and find at least 2-3 4-star recruits. I grew up in Washington DC and went to a High School in the WCAC. We played teams in whcih their entire rosters ended up playign D-1 ball. Its not the same in Milwaukee. Marquette has to go the extra mile to bring kids to a cold weather school. They do Their best but most of those schools have a lot more workign for them. I am not putting down Marquette but growing up there I knwo how much basketball means to them and how great the High School BAsketball is in NYC, Philadelphia, DC and Chicago. Milwaukee High School ball doesnt' touch any of them.

[mviale]

Exactly.  a kid playing in the bball hotbeds of philly, NYC, baltimore or DC doesnt want to escape the madness to land in MILWAUKEE. 

We would be lucky to land a Kinsella. Kinsella would have had a nice career if he had good feet.

[herboturbo]

we need to avoid the Trend, Lott, kinsella blunders too.

Agreed.

When was the last time a TRUE juco (not prep school recruit) made an impact at MU?

Marcus Jackson

[Niv Berkowitz]

High school sports in Wisconsin, comparitively speaking, suck. The state rarely produces top level, 5-star hoops talent (or football talent for that matter). Yes, there are exceptions and some good players (so please don't list them all saying I'm full of it...in general, the state's not good). But look at the top all-state team every year in WI in hoops and football. The top two players go to WI or MU, and from there, kids are going to D-II teams and stuff like that. In Illinois or Michigan, if you make all-state, you're going to a solid D-1 team most likely. So that's one thing Crean has going against him, at least on his home turf. (it also shows what a good job Ryan's done at WI with the types of players that are on that team. Boring to watch, but he's a great coach..even though I hate his guts.)

Second, MU is battling a perception problem. The school has had a long way to go since Crean took over. Look at the talent Deane was bringing in over his last couple years. Recruits weren't coming here. Games weren't even on TV. I think Crean's made huge in-roads from a recruiting standpoint what with the new found exposure from the Big East, but it's far from perfect and everyone always wants to see better. I mean, it's the Big East. And like it or not, Syracuse, G-town, Louisville and Pittsburgh all have better brand names than MU...something that goes a long way in recruiting.

No matter who is coaching MU, they'll always have that up-hill battle to go against. I definitely don't think Crean's omnipotent and that class of 2003 was just dreadful. That can't happen again. I like the guys that he's gotten the last couple years, but you are right. Who's there to lead them after the Big Three? Right now, I'd lie if I said I wasn't concerned.

A LOT will depend on Acker and how well he can run the point. If he does a good job there, it could be huge not only for the 07/08 team, but the 08/09 team too.

I did find it funny that once again, MU gets the good shooting PG from WI (Christopherson), while Bucky got the big guy (Nankivil). Always seems to work out that way. Style and coaching has a lot to do w/that too.

[Harrison]

You are correct and that is the reason Wisconsin was right next to Northwestern in the Big Ten Basketball standings for 70 years!!  No talent coming from the state.  Al went out of state to get his top players and used Wisconsin kids for role players.  So to say we cant go out of state has been disproved by Al.  Crean has gone out of state but needs to set the atrget higher.  There are dozens of kids in the East and Midwest that could help this program right now that MU does not recruit.  Look at Dunigan and Crittle from Chicago...two stud big men that have not mentioned MU since they were Freshmen.  How does Xavier or Depaul out recruit us?   I dont get it, we land some nice plyers at times but the biggest issue has been the huge misses.  We were basically 7- deep last year because we had Acker, Trnd, Lott and Kinsella on the bench.  Not sure how a coach in his 15th? year of D1 basketball sees these guys ( sans Acker) as high major D1 contributors.   The best player on lott's Juco team went to North Dakota state and destroyed MU in their win this year.  When Mu signed Kinsella I remeber reading a internet article that the writer was in utter disbelief, syaing he could not beleif MU offered him, injuries aside.  The writer went on to say he spoke with other D1 coaches and they were shocked Mu had offered him.   Trend was signed after we missed on his Juco teamate who was barely average at IU, then we offer Trend, I beleive we were his only D1 offer!!  My god!!   

[Chili]

Look at Dunigan and Crittle from Chicago...two stud big men that have not mentioned MU since they were Freshmen. 

You sure about that? Here is an article from December that mentions MU watching Crittle play.

Comes Up Big In Victory
by Dave Telep of Scout.com, December 13, 2006 at 5:58pm ET

Josh Crittle Profile

Hales Franciscan center Josh Crittle scored 15 points and grabbed 8 rebounds as his team downed Fenwick 56-47. Assistant coaches from Marquette, Wake Forest, Stanford and Wisconsin were on hand eyeballing Crittle and junior Matthew Humphrey.

http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=415&p=9&c=2&cid=600548&nid=1726241&fhn=1

[bma725]

Look at Dunigan and Crittle from Chicago...two stud big men that have not mentioned MU since they were Freshmen. 

You complain about lack of ranked recruits but list Crittle as a stud?  He's not top 100, he's barely a 3 star player, and he doesn't even have an offer from the bigger schools recruiting him.  He's a 6'7 200 LB center that's going to have to learn to play away from the basket in college....that's far from a stud.

[OneMadWarrior]

I am actual thinking This class next year is the sign of things to come look at where the kids are from, NYC, DC, Bama, Cali, IL. He is definitely diversifying where he is looking for recruits. The only way you do well in recruiting is by forging relationships with local coaches. and sometimes this means you start small. Most major programs don't recruit just based on local boundaries. That is more of a football mentality. Crean is doing much better on a national level and expanding into Big East country. Now while he may not get these great 5 star recruits at first he may be getting to know some of the coaches of these big time high school and AAU programs that can start pushing them towards Marquette and also show them some of the guys that may be going under the radar. I plan on going back and watching Sutton and Kenyi play later this year to see what they have to offer. What i know Kenyi will be is a disciplined defender who has already played against D-1 talent and played with D-1 talent.  He will be a smart basketball player which sometimes seems to be lacking on the floor with MU. I'll post more info as I get it.

[BigSky]

Hayward, Cubillian.....Mbakwe, Christopherson......  Williams and (undoubtedly other high major players...considering the Spring let alone summer AAU season hasn't finished)

Hayward will be an inside outside, off the dribble, shooter do everything elite player in the Big East for at least 2 possibly 3 years. 

[muarmy81]

Toughmover:
I agree, with Crean we're starting to develop those "pipelines" to other regions like Al did back in the 70's. (East coast) Sure we may not pull all the talent away immediately but its got to start somewhere so why not now.  It's also a good point because as somebody stated earlier besides the Mr. Basketball in Wisconsin there's not a whole bunch of talent in Wisconsin to fight Bo-Cryan over and with Tubby now in Minnesota we may have shrunk our talent pool in the Midwest. (minus chicago)

[ChicosBailBonds]

A couple of things.  Harrison, just because a recruit doesn't mention MU doesn't mean MU wasn't trying to recruit them.  You also keep mentioning DePaul as out-recruiting us and I've heard this for the last decade at least, and only once did DePaul finish ahead of us in the standings.

Second, though I generally agree with Niv's comments about Wisconsin high school hoops, it is WORLDS better today then it was 20 years ago.  Milwaukee was recently ranked as a top 20 city for high school talent and the kids around the state have become much much better the last two decades.  In the old days the state would produce 1 or 2 DI players a year, but there have been years recently where many more than that are produced.

Last year UCONN supposedly had the 2nd best recruiting class in the country basically on the court....and they were awful.  They were very young and will get better, but they were still awful.  Some are now transferring out and who knows if they will have a NCAA worthy team next year.

Recruiting ratings are great, they're fun for recruiting geeks.  The top 50 type guys are usually slam dunks.  But when you go 50 to 100 or 101 to 200 then there are plenty of duds and surprises all over the place.

It was mentioned here last week about the "studs" at George Mason (Jai-Lewis), Patrick Bryant is another and other schools "bigs"....all very lightly regarded bigs that were not top 100 players....all are doing well now but many of our fans would have skewered Crean for signing them when they came out of HS.

[Harrison]

I disagree with your dismissal of rankings.  The two best players from the deane era were Cordell and wardle...they were the only top 100 type kids he signed.  Sure there are misses but I would say 90% they pan out.  I would rather have someone all the guru's think is good and have a 10% fallout rate then signing a bunch of 2 star recruits and hoping they develop.  Crean has signed 1 top 100 big man..Scott merritt. he has been our best big man.  Also got jackson as a transfer they are the only above average big men in the Crean ear he was top 100 too.  Let's go to the guards and Wings.  Diener, Novak, mason, Wade, ODB, Matthews, James, and Jerel... can you really argue those are not the best players weve had at thos e positions? All top 100 kids...now please name the non-top 100 that have been better.  Yes you could probably pick the fly crap out of the pepper if you would like. But top 100 kids perform.  You can look back at Oneill's and majerus's signings and really any programs and they pretty much follow form.  And to the person that knocked Crittle...he is pretty well regarded and to nock him for being only 6'7"...well that would be as tall as anyone Crean has signed in 3 classes!! And taller than our starting 4 last year!!  Again, wether it is because we are listed or not  my furstration is the plethora of guys 6'7" or bigger in the Midwest and east that have Depaul xavier, St luois , rutgers etc.  listed and no MU.  is it a coincidence?  maybe but then we dont seem to sign them either. 
Also, Chico's i think you are enacting some revisionist history on Depaul.  they killed us in recruiting during Kennedy's early years and killed us on the court.  There recruiting fell off for a while but has been on the upswing the last few years.  I guarantee if they continue to sign classes like the last two we will be in trouble.   

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

Harrison--

Your message was scrambled and not very coherent but there were two points I wanted to broach:

1) I belive Mbakwe is a top 100 recruit. So that would bring it to 2 for Crean.

2) Hasn't MU won, like, 20 out of the last 25 against DePaul? If I'm remembering the numbers somewhat close to their reality then not sure where they "killed" us with Kennedy. It may have been even but don't think the Demons had enough of an advantage to considering it a "killing".

At least in my good memory, 10 years or so, MU has nearly owned DePaul and their fans are none too pleased with it.

[dwaderoy2004]

many people forget that chris grimm was a 4-star big out of high school that was recruited by some big programs.  he didn;t pan out, but I would add him to the list.  make it 3...

[ChicosBailBonds]

Harrison--

Your message was scrambled and not very coherent but there were two points I wanted to broach:

1) I belive Mbakwe is a top 100 recruit. So that would bring it to 2 for Crean.

2) Hasn't MU won, like, 20 out of the last 25 against DePaul? If I'm remembering the numbers somewhat close to their reality then not sure where they "killed" us with Kennedy. It may have been even but don't think the Demons had enough of an advantage to considering it a "killing".

At least in my good memory, 10 years or so, MU has nearly owned DePaul and their fans are none too pleased with it.

We are 25-6 against DePaul in the last 31 games.  An 81% winning percentage.


Yes, you are right we haven't signed some top big man recruits.  Unfortunately we have finished brides maid for many of them.  The effort is there, prized big men are in great, great demand so they have a lot of options to choose from.  I can think of 5 top 75 big recruits that were major bigs where we finished runner-up or certainly in the top 3.  Whether it was Butch or Fazekas or Stiemsma or others.  I would be concerned if we weren't going after these guys, like the end of the Deane era when we didn't even bother.  This staff goes hard after these kids in an effort to bring them to MU.

[ChicosBailBonds]

many people forget that chris grimm was a 4-star big out of high school that was recruited by some big programs.  he didn;t pan out, but I would add him to the list.  make it 3...

And Crean would have recruited Jackson but he was still the asst coach at MSU at the time.  He was a top 35 player nationally that both Wisconsin and Marquette did not recruit for a number of reasons.  I believe Crean would have and likely would have landed him as he had no intention of going to play for Dick Bennett at Wisconsin.

[OneMadWarrior]

Mathews McNeal and James were all 4 star Recruits so was Hayward. Dameon Mason was a 4 star that never panned out Almsot the entire wade class was high ly ranked including Merrit, terry Sanders and Odartay, IN fact thsoe 3 were all top 100 prospects. He has done a fine job coming through

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I disagree with your dismissal of rankings.  The two best players from the deane era were Cordell and wardle...they were the only top 100 type kids he signed.  Sure there are misses but I would say 90% they pan out.  I would rather have someone all the guru's think is good and have a 10% fallout rate then signing a bunch of 2 star recruits and hoping they develop.  Crean has signed 1 top 100 big man..Scott merritt. he has been our best big man.  Also got jackson as a transfer they are the only above average big men in the Crean ear he was top 100 too.  Let's go to the guards and Wings.  Diener, Novak, mason, Wade, ODB, Matthews, James, and Jerel... can you really argue those are not the best players weve had at thos e positions? All top 100 kids...now please name the non-top 100 that have been better.  Yes you could probably pick the fly crap out of the pepper if you would like. But top 100 kids perform.  You can look back at Oneill's and majerus's signings and really any programs and they pretty much follow form.  And to the person that knocked Crittle...he is pretty well regarded and to nock him for being only 6'7"...well that would be as tall as anyone Crean has signed in 3 classes!! And taller than our starting 4 last year!!  Again, wether it is because we are listed or not  my furstration is the plethora of guys 6'7" or bigger in the Midwest and east that have Depaul xavier, St luois , rutgers etc.  listed and no MU.  is it a coincidence?  maybe but then we dont seem to sign them either. 
Also, Chico's i think you are enacting some revisionist history on Depaul.  they killed us in recruiting during Kennedy's early years and killed us on the court.  There recruiting fell off for a while but has been on the upswing the last few years.  I guarantee if they continue to sign classes like the last two we will be in trouble.   

I'm a big college basketball nerd and I read the rankings too... but c'mon dude, you're taking this to an extreme.

At the end of the day it's about Ws and Ls, not about player rankings.

Is it important to bring in talent? Yes.

Should you be concerned about that actual ranking # of a player? Not really.

Too many kids playing, too many variables, too many politics for any of those numbers to really be accurate.

They are fun to look at, and fun to talk about... and they do give a general indication of a kid's talent level... but I wouldn't put as much stock in it as you do.

Can you really tell the difference between the #50kid and the #80 kid? They could be polar opposites (7ft Center from CA vs 5'8 PG from NYC), how are people really supposed to know who is better? Their teams are different, leagues are different, coaches are different, etc.

Crean and his staff will evaluate player based upon the games that they see, the workouts with the player, and the interviews (important).

[Harrison]

dont get me wrong i completely agreeits all about the numbers but there is a distinct correlation.  let me illustartae:  In 2003 we had wade, merritt, diener, novak, and jackson.  All top 100 kids we had a great year as we did the year before with a similar lineup sans novak and jackson but with Cordell and ODB both top 100.  Then thru trnasfers, graduation etc.  we had fewer the next year and suffered, then the next year the bottom fell out after losing Diener we only had 2.  Then last 2 years ago the program gets an undenyable boost, a blast of fresh air wehn....we sign 3 top 100 players who play like it on the court.  Another solid year this year led by our 3 top 100 kids.  As i have stated Mu is good to go for the next 2 years.  My concern with the last two classes and this summers is if we do not replace the top 100's with top 100's and ideally add more, there will be a major dropoff akin to 2004 and 2005.  Having coached the game a long time and I echo any one i have ever coached with or against. "good coaching" and winning is 90% talent.   

[NYWarrior]

dont get me wrong i completely agreeits all about the numbers but there is a distinct correlation.  let me illustartae:  In 2003 we had wade, merritt, diener, novak, and jackson.  All top 100 kids we had a great year as we did the year before with a similar lineup sans novak and jackson but with Cordell and ODB both top 100.  Then thru trnasfers, graduation etc.  we had fewer the next year and suffered, then the next year the bottom fell out after losing Diener we only had 2.  Then last 2 years ago the program gets an undenyable boost, a blast of fresh air wehn....we sign 3 top 100 players who play like it on the court.  Another solid year this year led by our 3 top 100 kids.  As i have stated Mu is good to go for the next 2 years.  My concern with the last two classes and this summers is if we do not replace the top 100's with top 100's and ideally add more, there will be a major dropoff akin to 2004 and 2005.  Having coached the game a long time and I echo any one i have ever coached with or against. "good coaching" and winning is 90% talent.   

You nailed it.....the 2008 class is huge for Crean -- he's had difficulty recruiting starter-level talent in years that follow his more highly rated classes.  I think he avoided that trap to a degree in the last two years with with Hayward and the combo of Acker/Cubillan.  Add in Christopherson and Mbakwe --  and I think TC is very close to ratcheting the program up a notch.

Nick Williams is a great start for 2008.  He compares favorably to Wesley Matthews.  Now if TC can corral talent like Jon Baldwin/Quintrell Thomas, Jordan Theodore/Rotnei Clarke,  and one big man (Sutton, Dunnigan)  -- this program will have reached a level we've not seen in some time.

[Big Papi]

dont get me wrong i completely agreeits all about the numbers but there is a distinct correlation.  let me illustartae:  In 2003 we had wade, merritt, diener, novak, and jackson.  All top 100 kids we had a great year as we did the year before with a similar lineup sans novak and jackson but with Cordell and ODB both top 100.  Then thru trnasfers, graduation etc.  we had fewer the next year and suffered, then the next year the bottom fell out after losing Diener we only had 2.  Then last 2 years ago the program gets an undenyable boost, a blast of fresh air wehn....we sign 3 top 100 players who play like it on the court.  Another solid year this year led by our 3 top 100 kids.  As i have stated Mu is good to go for the next 2 years.  My concern with the last two classes and this summers is if we do not replace the top 100's with top 100's and ideally add more, there will be a major dropoff akin to 2004 and 2005.  Having coached the game a long time and I echo any one i have ever coached with or against. "good coaching" and winning is 90% talent.   

You nailed it.....the 2008 class is huge for Crean -- he's had difficulty recruiting starter-level talent in years that follow his more highly rated classes.  I think he avoided that trap to a degree in the last two years with with Hayward and the combo of Acker/Cubillan.  Add in Christopherson and Mbakwe --  and I think TC is very close to ratcheting the program up a notch.

Nick Williams is a great start for 2008.  He compares favorably to Wesley Matthews.  Now if TC can corral talent like Jon Baldwin/Quintrell Thomas, Jordan Theodore/Rotnei Clarke,  and one big man (Sutton, Dunnigan)  -- this program will have reached a level we've not seen in some time.

I think there is a real good chance TC lands Theodore which would be another outstanding guard that is in at least the top 125. 

Baldwin would be a coup.  If we had a legit football program, I would have no doubt that we would have received a commitment from Baldwin already but I have a feeling that in the end he will go to a school where he can play both. 

TC needs to get a legit big with that last scholly to replace Barro and than Burke.  Unfortunately the way it is shaping up, we will be undersized for at least a year but Burke has the potential to hold his own on the defensive end by his senior year.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

dont get me wrong i completely agreeits all about the numbers but there is a distinct correlation.  let me illustartae:  In 2003 we had wade, merritt, diener, novak, and jackson.  All top 100 kids we had a great year as we did the year before with a similar lineup sans novak and jackson but with Cordell and ODB both top 100.  Then thru trnasfers, graduation etc.  we had fewer the next year and suffered, then the next year the bottom fell out after losing Diener we only had 2.  Then last 2 years ago the program gets an undenyable boost, a blast of fresh air wehn....we sign 3 top 100 players who play like it on the court.  Another solid year this year led by our 3 top 100 kids.  As i have stated Mu is good to go for the next 2 years.  My concern with the last two classes and this summers is if we do not replace the top 100's with top 100's and ideally add more, there will be a major dropoff akin to 2004 and 2005.  Having coached the game a long time and I echo any one i have ever coached with or against. "good coaching" and winning is 90% talent.   

You nailed it.....the 2008 class is huge for Crean -- he's had difficulty recruiting starter-level talent in years that follow his more highly rated classes.  I think he avoided that trap to a degree in the last two years with with Hayward and the combo of Acker/Cubillan.  Add in Christopherson and Mbakwe --  and I think TC is very close to ratcheting the program up a notch.

Nick Williams is a great start for 2008.  He compares favorably to Wesley Matthews.  Now if TC can corral talent like Jon Baldwin/Quintrell Thomas, Jordan Theodore/Rotnei Clarke,  and one big man (Sutton, Dunnigan)  -- this program will have reached a level we've not seen in some time.

Yea, I agree that the "follow-up" classes haven't been the best, but I think the sample size is still a little too small to make any broad assumptions.

If Wade had stayed all the way through, MU would have been VERY good in 2003-2004. I'm not saying that other programs don't have players leave early, I'm just saying that the talent drop off would have been as dramatic as when he left early.

Mason's class really hurt MU because it left a void in talent and experience and thus led to some peaks (UL game at home in '03 I think, Mason as a frosh.) and some valleys (UL game on the road when they got smoked).

Hopefully the frosh this year (cubby, lazar) continue to blend with the current group, and hopefully the incoming frosh can find rolls with current the team.

A few good classes in a row would do the program wonders.

I just wouldn't focus so much on the numbers. Anybody in the 80-150 range is probably going to be a quality player that can contribute.

Overall Crean has done a good job recruiting, and I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt in most cases.

With that said, the next few seasons will be very important. A bunch of transfers and/or bumps in the road with the program will be a signal that something (structure, staffing, etc.) might need to be changed.

[Marquette84]

***Again, wether it is because we are listed or not  my furstration is the plethora of guys 6'7" or bigger in the Midwest and east that have Depaul xavier, St luois , rutgers etc.

Based on my scan of the list, it looks like all guys with these particular programs happen to be local to the school involved.  In others words, I didn't see Xavier in on any guys outside if the Cincinnati area.  I didn't see SLU in on any guys outside of the St. Louis area.

Is it really surprising that the local school is mentioned by these players?  And how valid is "frustration" that Xavier has an in with guys out of Cincy?