Nice read for your Wednesday at work/school!

[JD]

http://eye-on-college-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/26283066/33588386

[JD]

I thought that was an interesting stat.

"Williams has led Marquette to 69 victories in his first three seasons and a trio of NCAA tournament appearances - including a Sweet 16 berth last year.

Just to compare, Crean won 56 games his first three years and went to the NCAA tournament once"

[MerrittsMustache]

I thought that was an interesting stat.

"Williams has led Marquette to 69 victories in his first three seasons and a trio of NCAA tournament appearances - including a Sweet 16 berth last year.

Just to compare, Crean won 56 games his first three years and went to the NCAA tournament once"

I'm no Crean apologist, but Buzz clearly took over a program in much better shape than the one Crean inherited.

[Hards Alumni]

repost, but yes, a good story.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=28670.msg330832#msg330832

the stat doesn't surprise me, and I think it is a bit misleading.  Al and TC both took over when the programs were sort of in the dumps... Buzz, not so much.

[JD]

Yeah, of course I notice that after posting the topic.  Sorry again guys.

[Tulsa Warrior]

McGuire inherited a program from Ed Hickey that was at ground zero for talent.  Crean actually inherited some decent but not 1st level talent from Deane.  Buzz did indeed get a good starting five when Crean left but there was no depth and a number of players who did not belong on a high major team.  Mbakwe's last minute exit from the team didn't help.  The team Kevin O'Neill handed over to Mike Deane may have had the deepest talent level any exiting coach has left.

Season three was crucial to Buzz's tenure and the national image of the program.  Marquette is clearly in better shape than the one he inherited.

[Lennys Tap]

I'm no Crean apologist, but Buzz clearly took over a program in much better shape than the one Crean inherited.

Has anyone here ever suggested differently?

[MerrittsMustache]

Has anyone here ever suggested differently?

This made me think someone was suggesting that it was an apples to apples comparison...

I thought that was an interesting stat.

"Williams has led Marquette to 69 victories in his first three seasons and a trio of NCAA tournament appearances - including a Sweet 16 berth last year.

Just to compare, Crean won 56 games his first three years and went to the NCAA tournament once"

[PBRme]

Crean also won 69 games in his last three years including a one win three loss NCAA tourney record.

[Lennys Tap]

This made me think someone was suggesting that it was an apples to apples comparison...

If that's what Goodman was suggesting he was being lazy. Al inherited a disaster from Ed Hickey (6-21 his last year)and turned it into the #2 program in college basketball for over a decade. TC inherited a solid program (100-55, 4 20 win seasons in 5, 2 NCAAs, 2 NITs) from Deane that was coming off a down year (14-15). Buzz also inherited a solid program (190-95, 5 20 win seasons in 9, 5 NCAAs, 2NITs) from Crean, but one coming off a good year with one outstanding class, one ok class and two empty classes in the pipeline. TC and Buzz inherited apples(though Buzz's was admittedly riper). Al inherited an orange - and a rancid one at that.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I thought that was an interesting stat.

"Williams has led Marquette to 69 victories in his first three seasons and a trio of NCAA tournament appearances - including a Sweet 16 berth last year.

Just to compare, Crean won 56 games his first three years and went to the NCAA tournament once"

The complete quote also included:

"Just to compare, Crean won 56 games his first three years and went to the NCAA tournament once. Hall of Famer Al McGuire, who won a national title at the school in 1977, won 43 games his first three seasons at Marquette."

I suspect Goodman was just providing context to Buzz's early success when he compared Buzz to MU's historically great coach (Al), and recently successful coach (Crean).

[Dr. Blackheart]

Perhaps a fairer comparison is Hank, who won 64 games his first three years, with three NCAA appearances (1-3), including a Sweet 16. If MU makes the NCAA's this season, Buzz will be the first coach in MU's history to accomplish a 4 for 4. His coaching job two seasons ago may have been one of the best in MU's history in terms of making wine out of water.

[Lennys Tap]

Perhaps a fairer comparison is Hank, who won 64 games his first three years, with three NCAA appearances (1-3), including a Sweet 16. If MU makes the NCAA's this season, Buzz will be the first coach in MU's history to accomplish a 4 for 4. His coaching job two seasons ago may have been one of the best in MU's history in terms of making wine out of water.

+1. I absolutely love Hank, but he inherited a MUCH stronger team/program than Buzz. Agree about the job Buzz did in year 2 - water into wine is the perfect analogy.

[Silkk the Shaka]

+1. I absolutely love Hank, but he inherited a MUCH stronger team/program than Buzz. Agree about the job Buzz did in year 2 - water into wine is the perfect analogy.

Anyone who could get that roster into the tournament should be coach of the year...

[Bieberhole69]

Crean was also in CUSA, Buzz in the BE

[NersEllenson]

One stat I find interesting is that without D-Wade, Tom Crean has won 1 NCAA tournament game in a 12 or 13 year head coaching career.  He even lost in the 1st round with D-Wade.  Buzz is 3-3 in the NCAA in 3 seasons.  A solid start and one I hope he can build on this year with another Sweet 16 or Elite 8 appearance.

The biggest indictment of TC's coaching acumen was going from a Final Four Team in 2003 to an NIT 1st/2nd round loser in 2004 and 2005 with two future NBA guys on the roster - Diener and Novak.  Furthermore, by 2004 we were 5 (or 6 years) into the Crean regime, and were also playing in Conference USA.  No justifiable excuse to not make the NCAA in 2004 and 2005.

[GGGG]

nm

[tower912]

09-10 was impressive? Really?   A starting line-up that went (laughingly at every height mention) 6'6, 6'7, 6'2 (ok, maybe) 6'0 and 5'8?   One man bench?    Somehow got to the tourney with a high school lineup?   Meh.   Talk to me in 5 years.      There is a reason that Buzz went juco his first couple of years.   Beyond the amigos and Lazar, there was nothing in the pipeline.  He should have been coach of the year for that performance.   That team's offense, when clicking was an aria, a stradivarius, a Kopp's butterscotch milkshake, a da vinci.    The whole eclipsed the parts.    Some (ok, Murf) don't understand why Buzz doesn't run that offense every year.   Because who wants to start 5 guards?   It was the same basic 4-out 1-in offense we run now, but the in was Butler or Lazar, who could also go out or put the ball on the floor.  

[Canadian Dimes]

people can argue wether or not it was an apples to apples comparison with Crean and Buzz's first three yesrs.

Would it also be apples to apples or not to compare Creans and Buzz's years 5 and 6?   

Crean hit the jackpot of a lifetime in landing Dwade and has been living off of it ever since.

[dgies9156]

+1. I absolutely love Hank, but he inherited a MUCH stronger team/program than Buzz. Agree about the job Buzz did in year 2 - water into wine is the perfect analogy.

Umm, dudes, Hank inherited a defending national champion, had four of five starters returning and was stacked through 1980. The incoming recruits and depth on the bench were a good basis for a core program that should have been able to continue the Al legacy through much of the 1980s.

I can't remember the last time an incoming college basketball coach inherited a defending national champion.

Look, Hank was as fine a man as anyone around. A decent and strong human being who bled blue and gold. A true Warrior. That said, he did less with more than just about any college basketball coach could have.

What I respect in Buzz is the ability to recruit and learn. He's building a program, not just a team. A year ago, I was concerned, especially given the large number of frustrating, extremely close losses we took last year. But unlike TV Tommy (aka, the "Tanned One"), Buzz has been a consistently strong recruiter who by all measures is recruiting depth. He's showing an ability to grow and we'll see where this takes us.

[Danny Noonan]

One stat I find interesting is that without D-Wade, Tom Crean has won 1 NCAA tournament game in a 12 or 13 year head coaching career.  He even lost in the 1st round with D-Wade.  Buzz is 3-3 in the NCAA in 3 seasons.  A solid start and one I hope he can build on this year with another Sweet 16 or Elite 8 appearance.

The biggest indictment of TC's coaching acumen was going from a Final Four Team in 2003 to an NIT 1st/2nd round loser in 2004 and 2005 with two future NBA guys on the roster - Diener and Novak.  Furthermore, by 2004 we were 5 (or 6 years) into the Crean regime, and were also playing in Conference USA.  No justifiable excuse to not make the NCAA in 2004 and 2005.

Ners,

Definitely an interesting stat for Crean with only 1 NCAA Tourney win without Wade. In fairness though in 2005, Diener's injury caused him to miss the last approximately 10 games leaving MU with no PG (Joe Chapman), ending any chances for an NCAA bid. In 2007, MU was without McNeal for the debacle against MSU.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I can't remember the last time an incoming college basketball coach inherited a defending national champion.

Gene Bartow at UCLA?

[dgies9156]

Gene Bartow at UCLA?

No. In 1974, North Carolina State was National Champions. Marquette was NCAA runner-up and UCLA made the Final 4.

Bartow was UCLA head coach from 1975 to 1977.

Maurice Lucas, Lloyd Walton and Bo Ellis were part of that Marquette team. We lost in the Championship after Al received two technical fouls and David Thompson went on another of his Michael Jordan preview acts.

[Dr. Blackheart]

No. In 1974, North Carolina State was National Champions. Marquette was NCAA runner-up and UCLA made the Final 4.

Bartow was UCLA head coach from 1975 to 1977.

Maurice Lucas, Lloyd Walton and Bo Ellis were part of that Marquette team. We lost in the Championship after Al received two technical fouls and David Thompson went on another of his Michael Jordan preview acts.

Nope.  Wooden retired in 1975 with a National Champion and Bartow took over the next season.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCLA_Bruins_men's_basketball

[MUMac]

McGuire inherited a program from Ed Hickey that was at ground zero for talent.  Crean actually inherited some decent but not 1st level talent from Deane.  Buzz did indeed get a good starting five when Crean left but there was no depth and a number of players who did not belong on a high major team.  Mbakwe's last minute exit from the team didn't help.  The team Kevin O'Neill handed over to Mike Deane may have had the deepest talent level any exiting coach has left.

Season three was crucial to Buzz's tenure and the national image of the program.  Marquette is clearly in better shape than the one he inherited.

Also, re Al, at that time Freshman were not eligible.  So, Al had two years (outside of JC transfers) to play before he could start setting the table with his talent.