Does IU Have Any Nads?

[4everwarriors]

We'll see as they are about to tip it vs Crean's successor in waiting.

[Lennys Tap]

We'll see as they are about to tip it vs Crean's successor in waiting.

Vegas thinks so. they opened as a 9 point favorite and went to 13.

[Golden Avalanche]

More then enough.

[rocky_warrior]

Sadly, it appears the team may even though the coach doesn't.

[Hoopaloop]

Sadly, it appears the team may even though the coach doesn't.

Leaving a top 20 program with your best team coming back (James, Matthews, McNeal, Hayward) in a senior laden team with Hayward as a junior to take over a program that was going to get their teeth kicked in for several years, not knowing what the NCAA sanctions would be doesn't take guts?  Crean had it made at MU and could be here still for years to come with no danger of losing his job.

You may not like him, I certainly don't care for him, but he had huge nads to do what he did.  Stay at a cushy MU job where he had it made or take on a major rebuilding job with a group of players he knew he was going to have to get rid of because they were academic misfits, drug users, and generally totally unacceptable to Indiana.

No guarantees he would succeed at IU, in fact as Chicos has told me several times, Rocky was one of many that was sure he wasn't going to make it.  In fact, he bet Chicos and others he wouldn't make it.  Chicos tole me to make sure Rocky pays up the bet to everyone.  You were the one that said he wouldn't make it to November 1 of 2012 and a bet was made that you would wear IU gear around with photographic proof.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15620.msg150604#msg150604

Less than 12 months now.  IU looks pretty good this year and that's before their major recruiting class even steps on campus next year.  Will Sheehy is a player.  Zeller could be freshman of the year in the Big Ten.  Doubtful they will make the NCAAs this year, but they are certainly on the upswing and off to a solid start with a soft schedule so far this season.

[rocky_warrior]

No guarantees he would succeed at IU, in fact as Chicos has told me several times, Rocky was one of many that was sure he wasn't going to make it.  In fact, he bet Chicos and others he wouldn't make it.  Chicos tole me to make sure Rocky pays up the bet to everyone.  You were the one that said he wouldn't make it to November 1 of 2012 and a bet was made that you would wear IU gear around with photographic proof.

Still no guarantees he WILL have success at IU.  And I fully intend on "paying" up my part of the bet if Chicos wins.  In fact, I may even un-ban him if that day occurs so that he can gloat for a few minutes.  But still, no guarantee that he wins

[NersEllenson]

Leaving a top 20 program with your best team coming back (James, Matthews, McNeal, Hayward) in a senior laden team with Hayward as a junior to take over a program that was going to get their teeth kicked in for several years, not knowing what the NCAA sanctions would be doesn't take guts?  Crean had it made at MU and could be here still for years to come with no danger of losing his job.

Crean left MU because he saw the writing on the wall - he continued to be the bridesmaid for many top recruits...and felt going to a Blue Blood program such as Indiana (flagship program in the state), in a hoops hotbed state, like Indiana, would give him a much better chance to land top recruits than he had/did at Marquette.  I certainly can't blame him for that/leaving MU...as it is very difficult to recruit to MU.  Let's just not make it out to be some really ballsy move to go to a program like Indiana.  The highly regarded recruiting class you speak of in 2012 I believe is all Indiana natives (Indiana Elite players, as was Zeller). 

[4everwarriors]

The dickhead left MU because the fact is he never wanted to be here in the first place. This was a steppin' stone job that he could get from MSU. He should worship the throne DWade sits on each day which allowed his enormous ego to be fulfilled. Every move he makes always was, is, and continues to be all about Tom Crean and he does a terrible job of disguising it. Always more sizzle than steak.

[chapman]

No guarantees he would succeed at IU, in fact as Chicos has told me several times, Rocky was one of many that was sure he wasn't going to make it.  In fact, he bet Chicos and others he wouldn't make it.  Chicos tole me to make sure Rocky pays up

So you talk to yourself?

[Lennys Tap]

Leaving a top 20 program with your best team coming back (James, Matthews, McNeal, Hayward) in a senior laden team with Hayward as a junior to take over a program that was going to get their teeth kicked in for several years, not knowing what the NCAA sanctions would be doesn't take guts?  Crean had it made at MU and could be here still for years to come with no danger of losing his job.

You may not like him, I certainly don't care for him, but he had huge nads to do what he did.  Stay at a cushy MU job where he had it made or take on a major rebuilding job with a group of players he knew he was going to have to get rid of because they were academic misfits, drug users, and generally totally unacceptable to Indiana.

No guarantees he would succeed at IU, in fact as Chicos has told me several times, Rocky was one of many that was sure he wasn't going to make it.  In fact, he bet Chicos and others he wouldn't make it.  Chicos tole me to make sure Rocky pays up the bet to everyone.  You were the one that said he wouldn't make it to November 1 of 2012 and a bet was made that you would wear IU gear around with photographic proof.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15620.msg150604#msg150604

Less than 12 months now.  IU looks pretty good this year and that's before their major recruiting class even steps on campus next year.  Will Sheehy is a player.  Zeller could be freshman of the year in the Big Ten.  Doubtful they will make the NCAAs this year, but they are certainly on the upswing and off to a solid start with a soft schedule so far this season.

1. MU was not a "top 20 program" under Tom Crean. He hit a home run with DWade, but in his other 7 seasons here MU finished in the top 20 exactly once (and that at #20).
2. He didn't leave with his "best team coming back". His two best teams (no shock here) were 5 and 6 years earlier with (you guessed it) DWade.
3. The absolute worst times to take over a program are at their peaks (MU after Al, UNC after Dean, UCLA after Wooden, etc.). It's an almost no win situation that takes huge nads. Taking over a traditional power at its nadir (follwing Dohrety at UNC, Dukiet or Deane at MU or Sampson at Indiana) is a no brainer, no lose situation that requires no nads whatsoever.

But don't let the facts interrupt your getting Chico's "talking points" out there. As his most loyal disciple you're a perfect reminder of what we're missing.

[Golden Avalanche]

Real good win for Indiana last night on the road. Celebration was a little exuberant but all in all there hasn't been much of that lately.

[Jay Bee]

Let's see how I4 does the first time the money says they are going to lose.  They were favorites last night.

If they beat Kentucky in about 9 days then a few moments of the midget dancing and yelling might be understandable.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I watched some of that game. It was a nice win for IU, but I wonder how good NC State is. I'll tell you what, I'd love to have that guy Sheehey on the Warriors. And this Zeller kid is as advertised - better than his brothers.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I watched some of that game. It was a nice win for IU, but I wonder how good NC State is. I'll tell you what, I'd love to have that guy Sheehey on the Warriors. And this Zeller kid is as advertised - better than his brothers.

My thoughts exactly.  Zeller is going to be a very good player for them and the Olidapido (or whatever) looks like a pretty phenomenal athlete. 

[Hoopaloop]

Crean left MU because he saw the writing on the wall - he continued to be the bridesmaid for many top recruits...and felt going to a Blue Blood program such as Indiana (flagship program in the state), in a hoops hotbed state, like Indiana, would give him a much better chance to land top recruits than he had/did at Marquette.  I certainly can't blame him for that/leaving MU...as it is very difficult to recruit to MU.  Let's just not make it out to be some really ballsy move to go to a program like Indiana.  The highly regarded recruiting class you speak of in 2012 I believe is all Indiana natives (Indiana Elite players, as was Zeller). 

Do not disagree with you at all on the recruiting front.  However, there are no guarantees of success at blue blood programs as our friend Lenny has pointed out.  Doherty at UNC.  Lavin at UCLA.  O'Neill at Arizona.  Guthridge at UNC. 

Finishing 2nd for all those recruiting battles isn't true either.  You don't land James, Matthews, Taylor, Mkwabe, and others by finishing second.  You land them because you finished first.  So he lost some kids, so did Buzz, so did Al, so will every coach.

[brewcity77]

Do not disagree with you at all on the recruiting front.  However, there are no guarantees of success at blue blood programs as our friend Lenny has pointed out.  Doherty at UNC.  Lavin at UCLA.  O'Neill at Arizona.  Guthridge at UNC. 

Finishing 2nd for all those recruiting battles isn't true either.  You don't land James, Matthews, Taylor, Mkwabe, and others by finishing second.  You land them because you finished first.  So he lost some kids, so did Buzz, so did Al, so will every coach.

Agree with almost everything you said here...except two points:

1) Guts didn't have a terrible run. 34 wins and a Final Four his first season, a 3-seed but disappointing first round loss his second season, and another Final Four (albeit after a sub-par regular season) his third year. He was always a caretaker, and I can't think of a program in the country that wouldn't take two Final Four appearances in three years from a caretaker.

2) He finished second for all the bigs. Let's be honest, after Merritt, Crean really didn't bring in another high-profile big. Grimm, Barro, Burke, sure, some worked out, but he wasn't landing guys like Zeller and Perea that he's getting now. He brought in a lot of good players, and we had a great-looking class before they all bolted when Buzz took over, but Crean couldn't land a big to save his life. Maybe that's changing with guys like Steve Taylor, but Buzz still hasn't landed a high-profile big either.

[Hoopaloop]

But don't let the facts interrupt your getting Chico's "talking points" out there. As his most loyal disciple you're a perfect reminder of what we're missing.

Loyal disciple?  Not a chance.  I like people that help out other people.  He helped out our foundation with a generous donation without even knowing me.  He did the same as mentioned on this board last week for the young man with cancer.  Marquette people helping Marquette people (or anyone) is something good.

By the way, when mentioning facts get in the way, is that similar to you claiming Jay Bilas stated the Big East was the best basketball conference in history when I showed you that clearly wasn't the case.  Bilas said nothing of the kind, in fact stated what I and most others believe, two years ago was better.  

Facts, indeed.     http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=28585.msg330205#msg330205

1. MU was not a "top 20 program" under Tom Crean. He hit a home run with DWade, but in his other 7 seasons here MU finished in the top 20 exactly once (and that at #20).

Not a top 20 program.  Perhaps you should try again.   In the team he bequeathed Buzz they started the year 16th.  That is a top 20 team that he left behind.  That is what I said, he left a top 20 team.  Do you need the rankings or do you want to talk about facts again?    It is you that is incorrect.  

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings/_/year/2009/week/1

Facts, indeed.   We can go back further if you wish.  In his second to last year the team finished in the top 20.  In his last year they finished 24th.  To recap, his last two years nationally ranked and the team he turned over to Buzz top 16 and you're saying that's not a top 20 team?  Facts, indeed.

2. He didn't leave with his "best team coming back". His two best teams (no shock here) were 5 and 6 years earlier with (you guessed it) DWade.  

We will never know, but that is my opinion.  If James doesn't get hurt at the end of the season, that team has a Final Four chance.  We will never know, but before James got hurt they were ranked 8th in the country in the most difficult conference in history (that's what Jay Bilas actually said).  

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings/_/year/2009/week/16/seasontype/2

Facts, indeed.

3. The absolute worst times to take over a program are at their peaks (MU after Al, UNC after Dean, UCLA after Wooden, etc.). It's an almost no win situation that takes huge nads. Taking over a traditional power at its nadir (follwing Dohrety at UNC, Dukiet or Deane at MU or Sampson at Indiana) is a no brainer, no lose situation that requires no nads whatsoever.

Good examples, but not a universal truth.  Would you like examples of taking over a power or following a legend and keeping things going?   Tom Izzo replacing Jud Heathcoate?  Aaron Rodgers replacing Brett Favre.  Steve young replacing Joe Montana.  Teams, coaches, players can sustain greatness.  Many do not, but many do.  

You also fail to present your examples in the proper terms.  Following a legend or traditional power at it's nadir does not mean success as pointed out.  Taking it over knowing the NCAA is about to stomp on you makes it even more daunting.  As some of the brilliance exhibited on this board over the years predicting IU would only be patient for 2 or 3 years max illustrates, it does take nads because you have a very short time lime.  You failed to mention this.  This is why so many here kept predicting Crean would be gone in year 3, in year 4.  It's why Rocky made bets with some posters.  One has to surmise he didn't understand the entire non-nad process that you were so locked into.

[Hoopaloop]

The dickhead left MU because the fact is he never wanted to be here in the first place. This was a steppin' stone job that he could get from MSU. He should worship the throne DWade sits on each day which allowed his enormous ego to be fulfilled. Every move he makes always was, is, and continues to be all about Tom Crean and he does a terrible job of disguising it. Always more sizzle than steak.

No different than O'Neil who didn't want to be here either and used it as a stepping stone.  No different than Deane trying for several years to leave MU.  Has there ever been a coach more about himself than Kevin O'Neil?  Ever?  Has he lasted anywhere as long as Crean has?

[4everwarriors]

Hoop, I just don't like him. Never will. See Crean as phony as a three dollar bill and that's not my style. I get it. Everyone's out for themselves and I don't profess it should be any other way. But, don't pee on the little people along the way, try to bullsheet the rest of us, or at least be smart or clever enough to fake it convincingly.
Whatever he has and will accomplish in coaching, particularly while the face of my alma mater, doesn't excuse his flaws as a human being and con artist. I don't care about his won/loss record, he's just not my cup of tea. Thrilled he's another institution's problem now.

[Hoopaloop]

Hoop, I just don't like him. Never will. See Crean as phony as a three dollar bill and that's not my style. I get it. Everyone's out for themselves and I don't profess it should be any other way. But, don't pee on the little people along the way, try to bullsheet the rest of us, or at least be smart or clever enough to fake it convincingly.
Whatever he has and will accomplish in coaching, particularly while the face of my alma mater, doesn't excuse his flaws as a human being and con artist. I don't care about his won/loss record, he's just not my cup of tea. Thrilled he's another institution's problem now.

You will not get any disagreement from me.  Purdue grad here (and MU).  My love for IU is next to nothing but my respect for IU and what Crean did at MU and currently at IU is not colored by my dislike for the man.  MU has had d-bag coaches for a number of years as have a number of other institutions. 

[Hoopaloop]

Still no guarantees he WILL have success at IU.  And I fully intend on "paying" up my part of the bet if Chicos wins.  In fact, I may even un-ban him if that day occurs so that he can gloat for a few minutes.  But still, no guarantee that he wins

You should just pay up now.  He told most of you it was a five year plan.  He was right, you guys were wrong.  That was a big win for them today, as much as it pains me to see IU do well.  Taking down the #1 team in the country and his big recruits don't even arrive until next year.

[Silkk the Shaka]

You should just pay up now.  He told most of you it was a five year plan.  He was right, you guys were wrong.  That was a big win for them today, as much as it pains me to see IU do well.  Taking down the #1 team in the country and his big recruits don't even arrive until next year.

Talking in the third person now?

[Hoopaloop]

Talking in the third person now?

   Where do you live?

[jmayer1]

You should just pay up now.  He told most of you it was a five year plan.  He was right, you guys were wrong.  That was a big win for them today, as much as it pains me to see IU do well.  Taking down the #1 team in the country and his big recruits don't even arrive until next year.

Why should it have to be a 5 year plan when you are at one of the most storied programs in all of college basketball? IU not sniffing the postseason in any of Crean's 1st 3 years is an absolute joke!! Good win for them yesterday, but I still don't think they make the NCAA tourney. Can't see them being .500 or better in the Big XX.

[Hoopaloop]

Why should it have to be a 5 year plan when you are at one of the most storied programs in all of college basketball? IU not sniffing the postseason in any of Crean's 1st 3 years is an absolute joke!! Good win for them yesterday, but I still don't think they make the NCAA tourney. Can't see them being .500 or better in the Big XX.

Since bets are flying around here and LennysTap offered one to me, let's put a wager on it.  They will make the NCAAs this year, but it will be tough. Big Ten is very good, best in the country which will make it difficult for them.  However, with the start they are off to and one fantastic win with two good wins, they are likely to be in.

Your comments about IU and the postseason during the first three years seems to be beyond your ability to comprehend.  Jay Bilas had it correct, so do most knowledgeable basketball people.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25868.msg290294#msg290294   

1:00 minute mark of the video.  Jay Bilas understands.  Maybe you should get on ESPN and explain how easy it should have been.  Most of us on the Purdue board don't even act this immature about IU.  We know how bad they had it, everyone in the state and conference knew they blew up the program.