Butch Lee 30th greatest college basketball player of all time

[ken8406]

Very interesting list with specific criteria.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7185970/the-50-greatest-college-basketball-players-all-time

[Canadian Dimes]

thats odd he is the #30 rated in the edition I read.

[ken8406]

my bad. Doing a math problem and numbers got mixed up.

[Nukem2]

Its a goofy list as the blogger even admits.  Lots of ommissions and faulty inclusions.

[Brewtown Andy]

Very interesting list with specific criteria.

As per usual when Klosterman is involved.

[MU82]

Loosen up. It's just for fun and for starting conversations. And it succeeds at both.

As for the list, the one thing that stands out to me is that, as a former sportswriter of 30 years who worked in several major markets, I never covered a better individual performance than Scott Skiles' 45-point game at Minnesota in 1986. He was 20 for 28 from the floor, shooting mostly from way downtown, and probably would have had 60 if there were 3-pointers that season. He averaged 27.4 points, 6.5 assists and even 4.4 rebounds that season to cap a very, very good career.

So to this mind's eye, he seems 20 to 30 spots too low on that list.

And believe me, I have no attachment to Sparty. I'm Marquette through and through and never lived or worked in Michigan.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I've been saying for years that Skiles was a PHENOMENAL player. One of the greatest Big Ten players in the last 20 years. MSU, which is no slouch as a program, retired his number. People have compared Travis Diener to Skiles, but IMO the comparisons are pretty much a joke. Scott Skiles was as intense an individual as I've seen...a total bad ass...and everybody was afraid of him as a player and a loose screw. The fact that he's transformed himself into a respected coach, despite his myriad of troubles in college, is nothing short of remarkable. At the risk of sounding melodramatic, he should be held up as an example to other addicts. He's the stuff movies are made of, seriously. Loved him as the Bulls' coach. And he's doing the same with the Bucks. Good for him.

To me, the best thing about that list is the statistic that Loyola's Alfredrick Hughes once took more than 650 shots in a season, but recorded only 17 assists. As a Chicagoan, I remember that Loyola team very well. They made the Sweet 16 with just 5 players. Their point guard, Carl Golston, was a Wisconsin transfer. Hughes could fill it up, but there were many times that he was a total detriment to the team. They had a lot of talent, but no size. Andre Hughes, Andre Battle, Hughes, Golston and Loyola Academy's moustachioed Mike Cenar.

Hughes, by the way, lasted maybe two years after being drafted in round 1 by the Spurs. Their second round pick, DePaul's Tyrone Corbin, lasted 16 years in the league despite having almost zero offensive ability. He was a hustler with a capital "H." Corbin played high school ball with the "X" Man, Xavier McDaniel. I have compared Jimmy Butler to Corbin on occastion. I think Butler has the same tenacity and a lot more ability.

[brewcity77]

The fact that he's transformed himself into a respected coach, despite his myriad of troubles in college, is nothing short of remarkable. At the risk of sounding melodramatic, he should be held up as an example to other addicts. He's the stuff movies are made of, seriously. Loved him as the Bulls' coach. And he's doing the same with the Bucks. Good for him.

I really think Skiles should go into college coaching. Watching him with the Bulls, it felt like by his last year, he had simply lost the team. He infused that grit early on, had them pointed in the right direction, but couldn't maintain it. I think his bad-ass nature just grates too much on pros. You can already see signs of the Bucks taking a downturn from where he had them.

Put him in college, where kids are more likely to go along with a hard-as-nails coach and not be the spoiled primadonnas many NBA athletes are, and I think he'll thrive. In addition, it's a lot harder for your act to get old when you don't work with any of your players for more than four years. With his history and NBA pedigree, I have to think he would be a fantastic recruiter, and one that could relate to a lot of what impressionable teens have to overcome.

My guess is he wears out his welcome in Milwaukee within the next two years. I hope for his sake, and honestly for the sake of the college game, that he finds a job at this level. I think he could be an absolute legend, something he'll likely never attain in the NBA.

[Skatastrophy]

Grantland is blogspam.  I've seen them linked at my various college basketball social news hubs, and they're worse than Bleacher Report.

Completely ridiculous ranking criteria.  The entire "article" is complete garbage, imho.

[Brewtown Andy]

Completely ridiculous ranking criteria.  The entire "article" is complete garbage, imho.

You're not really familiar with Chuck Klosterman's other writing, are you?

Not taking a shot, just guessing.

[4everwarriors]

Does Diener have 6 illegitimates like Skiles?

[CTWarrior]

I thought it was an interesting list. He cheated putting Kareem on there, but otherwise a very solid list.  I also think Bo Ellis deserved some consideration.  Other guys I can think of that fit the criteria (Basically great college basketball players who are remembered more for their college careers than their NBA careers) are:

Ed Pinckney-Villanova
Jack Givens-Kentucky
Pervis Ellison-Louisville
Keith Lee-Memphis State
Pearl Washington-Syracuse

I guess the above don't fit his "vaguely collegiate" criteria

[dgies9156]

I think he nailed it. You have to read his criteria carefully. With rare exceptions, these are not guys who had stellar pro careers. Yet all made tremendous impacts on college ball.

A few specific comments:

Alfredrick Hughes -- Good God, I forgot about Alfredrick. A poor man's Pete Maravich. The guy made ball hogging fashionable. Really adequate player who somehow got Loyola in the NCAAs a couple of times.

Maravich --The author forgot that Pete's Dad Press coached LSU and made Pete's scoring possible. The whole offense was built around Pete, thanks to Daddy. Which is why LSU was a terrible team until Dad went out and recruited Apple Sanders and Fig Newton for sonny boy's senior year. I know everybody liked Pete but Butch Lee was a more influential player for no other reason than that banner than hangs in the NE corner of the Bradley Center. In fact, Marquette played LSU in 1970 in the NIT. Wasn't pretty folks.

Alcindor/Jabbar -- This guy was the greatest college basketball player of all time. Bar none. When he was at UCLA, they rarely if ever lost. Nobody changed the game the way Alcindor did and, until MJ came along, there was a very strong case that he was the greatest NBA player ever. Saw Kareem in 1975 as a Milwaukee Buck and he was unbelievable. Period. If you don't believe me, look at what he did to the Bucks simply because they won a coin flip. I think they were world champions in his second year.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Where is Dr. Dunkenstein? How about Greg Kelser of MSU? And if the criteria is "had a great college career that was better than their pro career", I would have to go with Bill Walton as well due to injuries.

[Knight Commission]

I would put Patrick Ewing 4th and it appears he is not even on the list. They have Sleepy Floyd and Michael Graham on the list, but not the best player on that team. No Magic, Bird?

[Dr. Blackheart]

I would put Patrick Ewing 3rd and it appears he is not even on the list.

Need to read his fine print....basically it is the Top 50 Greatest College Players (who had lesser success in the NBA). Kinda of a weird blog piece (and confusing).

One of the greatest I saw in person was Mark Aguirre. Pretty much unstoppable in college...and I am sure he really was only 6'2" or 6'3".

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Does Diener have 6 illegitimates like Skiles?

Holy moly...I had not heard that, but I guess it's true. Oh well, he IS an addict and nobody ever said he isn't white trash.

[brewcity77]

Holy moly...I had not heard that, but I guess it's true. Oh well, he IS an addict and nobody ever said he isn't white trash.

Any time I think of Skiles, I always remember the song "The Infamous Date Rape" from Tribe Called Quest. Here's how the transition from the first to second verse:

If the vibe ain't right, huh, ya leavin
Hit the road Jack and all of that
But if she offers her abode, to drop ya load
Right smack dab in the middle
Get the kitten, I got crazy tender vittles

Uh huh, you know science, you get buckwild
Runnin mad games as if your name was Scott Skiles

He didn't exactly have the reputation of the upstanding boyfriend 

[tower912]

Skiles yelling at John Thompson during an NCAA game, saying words to the effect of..."I thought you were a defensive genius.   Well get somebody out here that can stop me."    That is the g-rated paraphrase, but it was awesome at the time.    Sparty has always been my second favorite team and I always got a kick out of how somebody my height and build (at the time) could be so unstoppable. 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

One of the greatest I saw in person was Mark Aguirre. Pretty much unstoppable in college...and I am sure he really was only 6'2" or 6'3".

Aguirre was absolutely unbelievable and led the Blue Demons to the Final Four as a very overweight, albeit athletic as hell, freshman. And you're right.  I met him once in Dallas, shook his hand and, as somebody who is 6'1" I can tell you he is no more than 6'2". Maybe less! I think he was the first ever draft pick (#1 overall) of the Mavericks.

[Knight Commission]

Need to read his fine print....basically it is the Top 50 Greatest College Players (who had lesser success in the NBA). Kinda of a weird blog piece (and confusing).

One of the greatest I saw in person was Mark Aguirre. Pretty much unstoppable in college...and I am sure he really was only 6'2" or 6'3".

Thanks for the carification.

Ironically, the #1 on his list is also #1 on the NBA career scoring record (even though he doesn't have a statue). Basically, his blog is to advocate the white kids with limited physical gifts, ala Gerry McNamara, Skiles, Alford, Maravich, Redik,  Laetner, and Jimmer, etc. that we too often forget.

He is basically saying give the white college basketball payer some due respect because we acknowledge they can't contribute in the NBA (for whatever reason). Chris Kaman is one of the best American born white NBA players in the "League".....enough said.

This is a borderline racist post.

[Goose]

Hate to say it but I think Laettner was best college player in my lifetime. Also, I do think Bo Ellis was a better college player than Butch Lee and deserved to be on the list. Butch was unreal for two years and Bo was stud from day one.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Hate to say it but I think Laettner was best college player in my lifetime.

For some reason, I think I remember Al McGuire saying the same thing. You certainly can't leave Laettner out of any conversation of best college players

[4everwarriors]

Need to read his fine print....basically it is the Top 50 Greatest College Players (who had lesser success in the NBA). Kinda of a weird blog piece (and confusing).

One of the greatest I saw in person was Mark Aguirre. Pretty much unstoppable in college...and I am sure he really was only 6'2" or 6'3".

Stood next to Aguirre and Skip Dillard at the Arena when they were here lookin' at MU. Mark had a ratty old army jacket on. Still contend Aguirre matriculates at Marquette if Al woulda remained the coach.

[dgies9156]

Stood next to Aguirre and Skip Dillard at the Arena when they were here lookin' at MU. Mark had a ratty old army jacket on. Still contend Aguirre matriculates at Marquette if Al woulda remained the coach.

Yeupper. No argument there.

Oh and we never would have lost to Miami of Ohio in March 1978 either.