OT: US News and World Report Rankings

[StillAWarrior]

Indeed, I almost commented on the previous post.  If the School of Mines has a degree that you're looking for, it is a very well respected institution.  In fact, had I know about it when I as applying for engineering schools, I probably would have given it a serious look (and location is good too!).

I grew up in that part of the world.  Mines played in the same conference as the local college where I grew up, so I saw their football team every year.  Very good school.

[martyconlonontherun]

Personally, I loved my 4 years of school and I needed it as part of my maturation process. However, I'd be hard pressed to say that it was truly "worth it".

$80k cash (the difference in tuition), and a 4 year degree from a local public college will give you a hell of a jumpstart on life compared to going to MU and paying rack rate.

Hell yeah it would. I just graduated with a communications degree and agree with a lot that has been said in this thread. I enjoyed my time at MU and made great friends, but I could have done that at any university. Due to the economy, I took a low paying job that is barely in my major. I had to move back home since I am paying so much in loans and other bills that I cannot afford rent. My crappy job would feel a lot better if I was at least living on my own in the city and wasn't shackled by my debt. Yes, it is my own fault for choosing my major and school, but I was 18 and listened to all the BS about how great of a comm school MU had and that you will have no problem finding a job with the alumni base.

I just read somewhere that 85% of graduates move back home. For MU to be worth the pay, you need a major to have 3 things: Pay is worth it, MU has a well-respected program, and it makes sense to be in the city for job connections. So unless you are an engineer, accountant, or something similar, you are just wasting your money at MU.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

you will have no problem finding a job with the alumni base.

Someone must have come up with a marketing slogan awhile ago that "Marquette alums take care of one another" (employment-wise). I say "slogan" because I heard the exact same phrase from too many random people for it to not have come from somewhere.

This really didn't help much when applying for jobs in Chicago with legions of HR staffers who had never heard of Marquette. It's pretty bad when people 90 minutes away are asking whether it is in Marquette, Michigan.

(I don't really blame Marquette for this. You have to be amazingly stupid not to have heard of it if you are in Chicago. It is arguably a fact of life when attending private schools.)

[Skatastrophy]

Someone must have come up with a marketing slogan awhile ago that "Marquette alums take care of one another" (employment-wise). I say "slogan" because I heard the exact same phrase from too many random people for it to not have come from somewhere.

It's not a marketing slogan, it's the truth.  I've had MU job connections all over the US because of my MU Engineering degree.  You just have to take some time building your network.

Perhaps it's a little stronger with the college of engineering than it is with other colleges?  MU grads always get me to take a long look at their resume when I'm hiring.  Even people that I've interviewed with that don't know where MU is (mostly people in CA) immediately mention Dwyane Wade.  If not, it helps to have talking points on the University to sell it yourself.  If you're enthusiastic and can back up your enthusiasm with data on MU being a great school, the HR + hiring managers won't soon forget it.  Think of it as paving a path for yourself as well as the MU grads coming in years after you

[JWags85]

Indeed, I almost commented on the previous post.  If the School of Mines has a degree that you're looking for, it is a very well respected institution.  In fact, had I know about it when I as applying for engineering schools, I probably would have given it a serious look (and location is good too!).

I should have added a caveat with all the kickback that has come.  I never implied it wasn't a great school.  I had a professor in college that was an alum and he was a brilliant guy.  Rather, as some have noted, its an incredibly niche school (as is SUNY School of Forestry which is also above Marquette), which I think has no place being highly ranked on a "national university" ranking.  Ohio University has a fantastic journalism program as well as a highly ranked engineering school, but it didn't crack the top 100 cause it only appeals to a small sub section of students.  Maybe I'm not making my point well, but its uneven ground when comparing a school like CSM to a school like Marquette or other "major" universities.  Its the same reason smaller Liberal Arts schools have their own ranking.

[Litehouse]

Personally, I loved my 4 years of school and I needed it as part of my maturation process. However, I'd be hard pressed to say that it was truly "worth it".

$80k cash (the difference in tuition), and a 4 year degree from a local public college will give you a hell of a jumpstart on life compared to going to MU and paying rack rate.

A fact that is often overlooked is that students are far more likely to take 5 years to graduate at public colleges.  Plus, students are far more likely to get financial aid at private colleges and most aren't paying rack-rate.  Everyone's situation is different, but a more accurate comparison is often 5 years at public college standard tuition vs. 4 years of reduced private college tuition.  Then factor in the opportunity cost of the lost salary from missing the extra year of working right out of school, and the difference isn't as great as the annual tuition sticker price would make it seem.

[dgies9156]

Hell yeah it would. I just graduated with a communications degree and agree with a lot that has been said in this thread.  I had to move back home since I am paying so much in loans and other bills that I cannot afford rent. My crappy job would feel a lot better if I was at least living on my own in the city and wasn't shackled by my debt. Yes, it is my own fault for choosing my major and school, but I was 18 and listened to all the BS about how great of a comm school MU had and that you will have no problem finding a job with the alumni base.

I just read somewhere that 85% of graduates move back home. For MU to be worth the pay, you need a major to have 3 things: Pay is worth it, MU has a well-respected program, and it makes sense to be in the city for job connections. So unless you are an engineer, accountant, or something similar, you are just wasting your money at MU.

1)   I was like Marty in the late 1970s. I left college with a $23,000 Marquette Journalism degree and a job in a city I hated paying all of $10,500 per year. Fortunately, I was saddled with no debt but still had to live in an apartment in a near ghetto with a leaky roof, poor electrical and very bad heating (air conditioning.. are you kidding?). The ratio of my annual pay to the cost of my education on a nominal, pre-tax basis was 0.46x. Today, assuming that same job pays $25,000 a year, the same ratio is 0.16x based on a $160,000 all-in cost of an MU degree. Marty, I feel your pain in that regard. That's a huge difference and goes to my concern about Marquette as a viable option for many middle class families.

2)   Marquette has value. There's a lot of things that made me who I am today because of Marquette and its philosophy toward education. I was able to get an MBA with an undergraduate Journalism degree because Marquette taught me to think and to communicate. The reality is that even if you do nothing more with a journalism degree, that basic education will go well in whatever field you choose.

3)   Is Marquette a waste? No. It is overpriced at $160,000 for four years, all-in. Good grief yes! My comment about the pricing and the healthcare model was, as previous commenters noted, aimed at the university's apparent commitment to pass through whatever it can through in tuition knowing that the costs of providing an "inflated cost service" are being borne by third parties. That saves the University the difficult task of saying "no" to staff it values. But that comes at a price and the price is that many people who love Marquette and what the university did for them can't send their children to MU.

4)   The State University model is, as some note, shifting to a user pay system rather than state support. In Illinois, this has been a huge issue at the University of Illinois. When the legislature in our state proposed cutting the U of I's appropriation, the University countered by proposing to admit more higher-paying out-of-state students at the expense of in-state students. Boy did that cause a ruckus here!

5)   With regard to post-collegiate placement, engineers, lawyers and business majors do well. But even these disciplines don't hold a candle to such universities as Notre Dame. If I could send my children anywhere, as much as I hate Notre Dame, that's where I'd start because nobody I've ever come across has a more loyal alumni base. Hire one ND grad and you'll soon have 1000 or more! I wish we were better at that. The basketball team (which is what we should be talking about), very much helps because it creates a buzz (pardon the pun), especially when we're good. That's why a good basketball team is VERY important. I won't hire because of some school's athletic program, but it makes me take a second look because I've heard of the place.

[ringout]

Not much any longer.  The UW System schools only get about 15% of their revenue from the taxpayers of the state of Wisconsin.  

Public universities actually want to move toward the private school model.  It used to be that the State of Wisconsin disallowed the use of taxpayer or tuition dollars to be used for financial aid...that was made legal in the last budget cycle.

+100

This is why UW gives more freshman admits to out of state (Coasties) kids.  They subsidize the Wi kids low tuition.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

It's not a marketing slogan, it's the truth.  I've had MU job connections all over the US because of my MU Engineering degree.  You just have to take some time building your network.

Perhaps it's a little stronger with the college of engineering than it is with other colleges?  MU grads always get me to take a long look at their resume when I'm hiring.  Even people that I've interviewed with that don't know where MU is (mostly people in CA) immediately mention Dwyane Wade.  If not, it helps to have talking points on the University to sell it yourself.  If you're enthusiastic and can back up your enthusiasm with data on MU being a great school, the HR + hiring managers won't soon forget it.  Think of it as paving a path for yourself as well as the MU grads coming in years after you

It could be both the truth and a marketing slogan...

I was an Arts & Sciences grad, which was undoubtedly part of the problem. It's hard for a major to build a network when there really aren't many jobs for your degree to begin with.

[Warriors10]

Hell yeah it would. I just graduated with a communications degree and agree with a lot that has been said in this thread. I enjoyed my time at MU and made great friends, but I could have done that at any university. Due to the economy, I took a low paying job that is barely in my major. I had to move back home since I am paying so much in loans and other bills that I cannot afford rent. My crappy job would feel a lot better if I was at least living on my own in the city and wasn't shackled by my debt. Yes, it is my own fault for choosing my major and school, but I was 18 and listened to all the BS about how great of a comm school MU had and that you will have no problem finding a job with the alumni base.

I just read somewhere that 85% of graduates move back home. For MU to be worth the pay, you need a major to have 3 things: Pay is worth it, MU has a well-respected program, and it makes sense to be in the city for job connections. So unless you are an engineer, accountant, or something similar, you are just wasting your money at MU.

85% of graduates move back home may be true, but how many of those kids move back home because they are unwilling to look for a job outside a 50 mile radius of their home?  If you are willing to move anywhere you will (or at least a better chance) to find a descent job.

Second, you have to weigh the cost-benefit of getting a certain major at Marquette.  In my opinion unless you are in the business school, engineering, and some A&S programs, Marquette might not be worth the debt.

[GGGG]

A fact that is often overlooked is that students are far more likely to take 5 years to graduate at public colleges.  Plus, students are far more likely to get financial aid at private colleges and most aren't paying rack-rate.  Everyone's situation is different, but a more accurate comparison is often 5 years at public college standard tuition vs. 4 years of reduced private college tuition.  Then factor in the opportunity cost of the lost salary from missing the extra year of working right out of school, and the difference isn't as great as the annual tuition sticker price would make it seem.

If you don't change your major, or aren't in a five year program like accounting, you will graduate in four years from a public university.  It is probably more accurate to say that students graduate in five years because it is cheaper - students can afford to change their mind later.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

If you don't change your major, or aren't in a five year program like accounting, you will graduate in four years from a public university.  It is probably more accurate to say that students graduate in five years because it is cheaper - students can afford to change their mind later.

As a public school administrator, how accurate would you say the claim is that students can't graduate in four years because they can't get all the classes they want scheduled? I've always thought that this claim was odd, because it would assume that most universities regularly fail to employ as many professors as their students need to fulfill degree/major requirements, and I don't know why this would routinely, universally be the case.

[GGGG]

It is incredibly rare for students to not be able to schedule their courses to graduate...unless they have changed majors...are inflexible with their schedule...also want some particular minor or double major...or had academic issues that put them behind.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Thanks. I've heard this excuse from numerous UW students/graduates. Always thought it was odd.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

A fact that is often overlooked is that students are far more likely to take 5 years to graduate at public colleges.  Plus, students are far more likely to get financial aid at private colleges and most aren't paying rack-rate.  Everyone's situation is different, but a more accurate comparison is often 5 years at public college standard tuition vs. 4 years of reduced private college tuition.  Then factor in the opportunity cost of the lost salary from missing the extra year of working right out of school, and the difference isn't as great as the annual tuition sticker price would make it seem.

Even if you are right about the 5 year thing, let's call the difference $40k.

A smart kid with some hustle and good guidance from his/her parents can get a great jumpstart with 40k and a decent education (hell, a smart person doesn't really need a degree).

I love MU and I'm not bashing it... just saying it's hard to justify if I look at it objectively.

When I was 18, my parents never explained it to me like that, nor did I ever look at it like that.

In general, the market and investments were going well (for a lot of middle class families) so college tuition money was available for more people than it is now.

Value analysis wasn't a huge consideration. It was more about going to the best school that was the best fit. BC and ND weren't interested. Georgetown was a pipedream. MU was next on the list.

I think middle class families are probably having more "value analysis" conversations now, or at least I would.

[martyconlonontherun]

85% of graduates move back home may be true, but how many of those kids move back home because they are unwilling to look for a job outside a 50 mile radius of their home?  If you are willing to move anywhere you will (or at least a better chance) to find a descent job.

Second, you have to weigh the cost-benefit of getting a certain major at Marquette.  In my opinion unless you are in the business school, engineering, and some A&S programs, Marquette might not be worth the debt.

That probably makes up a huge number but many move home even with jobs due to debt.

[rocky_warrior]

find a descent job.

Skydiving instructor?  Repelling Instructor?  SCUBA Instructor?  Zip line operator?

[Litehouse]

Even if you are right about the 5 year thing, let's call the difference $40k.

Just throwing out some numbers... current tuition at MU is about $32k, at UW-Madison it's about $10k.  I'd guess a decent student at MU is probably on the hook for $25k after all the financial aid is factored in, while the same kid would still be paying $10k at UW.

4 years at MU at $25k/yr = $100k
working for a year making $40k brings it down to $60k

5 years at UW at $10k/yr = $50k

That's a difference of about $10k when it's all said and done.  Everyone's situation is different, but that scenario sums up the experience of me and most of my friends that went to UW.

[The Lens]

Even if you are right about the 5 year thing, let's call the difference $40k.

A smart kid with some hustle and good guidance from his/her parents can get a great jumpstart with 40k and a decent education (hell, a smart person doesn't really need a degree).

I love MU and I'm not bashing it... just saying it's hard to justify if I look at it objectively.

When I was 18, my parents never explained it to me like that, nor did I ever look at it like that.

In general, the market and investments were going well (for a lot of middle class families) so college tuition money was available for more people than it is now.

Value analysis wasn't a huge consideration. It was more about going to the best school that was the best fit. BC and ND weren't interested. Georgetown was a pipedream. MU was next on the list.

I think middle class families are probably having more "value analysis" conversations now, or at least I would.

Thank you.  Many have stated that MU's rise in quality of avg. student and rise in fundraising was due to incredible efforts of MU.  While MU certainly steered the ship correctly, market forces were definitely at work too.

Many, many private schools (elementary / secondary / college) saw huge building booms and more qualified students, not just MU.  It will be interesting to see what the next 10 years looks like.

[GGGG]

Also, don't forget that many middle class families used home equity to send their kids to school a decade ago.  That isn't as easy any longer.

[muhs03]

So making 40k reduces the loan to 60k? I guess you are figuring no taxes, no cost of living, etc. Most kids I know that have student loans pay the minimum on a monthly basis. Heck, I'm taking a class at UChicago and a student told me she had 45k in loans (with another 12k to go to finish her MBA). She told me that the cost to borrow is so low that it makes very little sense to pay anything more than the interest due to TMV.

[JWags85]

So making 40k reduces the loan to 60k? I guess you are figuring no taxes, no cost of living, etc. Most kids I know that have student loans pay the minimum on a monthly basis. Heck, I'm taking a class at UChicago and a student told me she had 45k in loans (with another 12k to go to finish her MBA). She told me that the cost to borrow is so low that it makes very little sense to pay anything more than the interest due to TMV.

What was she paying as a rate?  I know personally my grad school loans for my MBA at the moment are 6.5%.  Not exorbitant, but its not like getting some crazy 2% rate like you could get on a car loan.

[GGGG]

Also remember that, since student loan interest is tax deductible, that you are effectively reducing the amount of the interest you are playing by the amount of the tax you are *not* paying on that income.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Thank you.  Many have stated that MU's rise in quality of avg. student and rise in fundraising was due to incredible efforts of MU.  While MU certainly steered the ship correctly, market forces were definitely at work too.

Many, many private schools (elementary / secondary / college) saw huge building booms and more qualified students, not just MU.  It will be interesting to see what the next 10 years looks like.

Yea, MU has experienced some awesome growth the past 10-15 years.

I hope they have a good plan for if/when enrollment and donation numbers come back down significantly. 

Make hay while the sun shines and have a good plan for the rough patches, I suppose. 

Although, I think the whole college paradigm might shift, so I don't think MU is alone.

[turk17]

Call me a bleeding heart here, but any sort of cost-benefit analysis involving tuition v. debt load is flawed, especially at a place like Marquette where students learn so much more than merely the subject material at hand in their own major.

Just because I don't make as much money out of college with my degree doesn't mean that it wasn't worthwhile.  In fact, college professors in the humanities go to college for about...10 years(?), and make very little comparatively.  There are reasons - very valid reasons - that people can go to school for a LONG time and pay a LOT of money without the expectation of proportional increase in earning potential.  I thought this point was obvious, but I haven't yet seen it mentioned much on this thread.

College is a place of learning as well as a place to develop technical and professional competencies.  To say that one's "benefit" from their degree is strictly limited to their earning potential is short-sighted.  To say that the Arts & Sciences students are funding the Business/Engineering students is, in many ways, a misunderstanding of the purpose of the university experience.  If people want to make lots of money and spend very little money to learn how to do that, than a trade school would be the most ideal venue for that.

NOW - if we are going to discuss whether or not students are going to college for the right reasons, well, that is a different question.