What's the consensus?

[ppp098]

I've been away from the boards for a while. How we lookin'? How do we stack up versus nova, g'town, cuse cinci-nasty, etc. FIRE UP!!! Give me some bball scoop on muscoop. FIRE UP.

[brewcity77]

Well, there's pages of threads with good material...I'd say in general there's been a lot of good discussion here lately. But to summarize...

• Lots of talk about DJO -- everyone who's watched him this summer says he's primed for a big year and rumor has it he'll be the pre-season pick for Big East Player of the Year
  
• bama's Value Add metric has garnered a lot of attention, in addition to pointing out that Jae Crowder is one of the best unsung players in the country, it's been picked up by SI writer Luke Winn, among others
  
• Louisville, Syracuse, and now UConn (thanks to Drummond) are the favorites to win the Big East, most pundits have Marquette in the next group with Pittsburgh and Cincinnati
  
• Sounds like we'll come into the season ranked, depending on the source, we're anywhere from low-20s to high-teens in rankings; I'm expecting the pre-season polls to have us in the 17-20 range
  
• Lots of chances to prove ourselves early with a tough non-con slate that includes at Madison, at LSU, against Washington at MSG, and Vandy at home
  
• Playing in the Big East isn't getting any easier, our first six games are all against tourney teams: Villanova, @ Georgetown, @ Syracuse, St. John's, Pitt, Louisville (on the plus side if we start 6-0 we'll probably be ranked in the top-5 in the country )
  
• Buzz landed 2013 SG/SF Deonte Burton this past Friday, he's a consensus top-50 recruit and the highest ranked player from Milwaukee since...umm...help? Devin Harris and Jerry Smith were both 'Tosa guys...who was the last top-50 from Milwaukee?

.
Other than that, the usual occasional bickering about Crean, legal issues regarding the basketball program, and all the other loving moments that you love Scoop for. Oh...and Chicos is gone for good. Unless you listen to some who insist that Hoopaloop is Chicos new screen name.

[77ncaachamps]

You forgot to mention the recruiting roller coaster of the summer:

- a good number of offers from MU to instate talent, which formed a rather unusual deep class of WI talent
- Gabe York visits, still has us in his top 3, commits to Arizona
- PF Steve Taylor commits as the #1 IL recruit in his class; hails from Reggie Smith's AAU club
- PG Kris Dunn commits to Providence; some MU fans had pegged him as a must-have game changer

Summer Leagues were hosted in Milwaukee (Davante looked slimmer, hit a three, and showed he might have the handles to be a point forward - lol) and NC (DJO who apparently wowed his fellow NC residents playing alongside and against Austin Rivers).

[bilsu]

The last top 50 recruit from Milwaukee might be Robert Jackson.

[Skatastrophy]

The last top 50 recruit from Milwaukee might be Robert Jackson.

The unspoken part of that statement was that RJax was a 1 year transfer, as opposed to a 4 year impact player for MU.  DBurton is an electric addition to MU.

[bilsu]

The unspoken part of that statement was that RJax was a 1 year transfer, as opposed to a 4 year impact player for MU.  DBurton is an electric addition to MU.

I took the question to be about who was the last top 50 player from Milwaukee that went anywhere?
I think that would be Robert Jackson. Prior to that Mills and the little point guard that went to Kansas.
I am not sure if Quemont Greer (Grier) was top 50. I am probably missing someone. The last top 100 from Milwaukee to go to MU out of high school is probably Damon Key.

[DomJamesToTheBasket]

I think we will be as good as last year and probably a little better.  The real exciting thing is how we are projecting in a couple of years.  I truly think Buzz is building a championship contender.  Buzz is a gem.

[NersEllenson]

I think we will be as good as last year and probably a little better.  The real exciting thing is how we are projecting in a couple of years.  I truly think Buzz is building a championship contender.  Buzz is a gem.

Agree - However, I think we should be better than last year's team.  I'm expecting 15-20+% improvement in DJO, Crowder, Otule, Cadougan, Gardner, Blue - with wildcards of Jamil Wilson, Jamail Jones, Juan Anderson, and Todd Mayo.  Think Mayo could provide some instant offense if needed.

I'd say anything short of a Sweet 16 from this years team would actually be a disappointment - with an Elite 8 being a very realistic expectation, and a Final 4 exceeding expectations.

[GGGG]

For MU to improve from last year, they *must* improve on the defensive side of the ball.  Their defensive EFG% and Off Rebound % was below average for Division 1 at large, significantly below average for a contending team.  Simply put, they gave up too many offensive rebounds which lead to too many easy baskets.

I think we need to see significant improvement on the front line....Crowder, Otule, Gardner and Jamil.  This will be interesting to see, especially since Butler isn't around.  I also think defensively DJO and Junior must be better than they were last year.  Losing DB, and replacing him with Jamail or Mayo, is going to be an issue here.

I have no doubt that this team can put the ball in the basket.  I am concerned that we might not be able to stop the other team from doing so however...unless Buzz is going to come at it with a different scheme.

[brewcity77]

Agree - However, I think we should be better than last year's team.  I'm expecting 15-20+% improvement in DJO, Crowder, Otule, Cadougan, Gardner, Blue - with wildcards of Jamil Wilson, Jamail Jones, Juan Anderson, and Todd Mayo.  Think Mayo could provide some instant offense if needed.

I'd say anything short of a Sweet 16 from this years team would actually be a disappointment - with an Elite 8 being a very realistic expectation, and a Final 4 exceeding expectations.

I agree that we should be better, but projecting NCAA success as the bar is a recipe for disappointment. Look at the 2008-09 team. Without a doubt, Buzz's best team, and probably the best Marquette team since Wade declared for the draft. Despite only making the second round, I still look at that as a very successful season.

Looking at next year, I think a realistic goal is 25-8 (less than 24-9 and I'll be disappointed) going into the tournament. Anything past that is gravy.

[Nukem2]

I agree that we should be better, but projecting NCAA success as the bar is a recipe for disappointment. Look at the 2008-09 team. Without a doubt, Buzz's best team, and probably the best Marquette team since Wade declared for the draft. Despite only making the second round, I still look at that as a very successful season.

Looking at next year, I think a realistic goal is 25-8 (less than 24-9 and I'll be disappointed) going into the tournament. Anything past that is gravy.

Yep, projecting NCAA success for a specific tournament can be a fool's errand as injuries, matchups and other factors can influence the outcome.  Really need to look at success over time.  Just look at MU's 1977 champs.  MU had better teams who came out on the short end due to matchups ( ala 1976 when MU met Indiana early as teams were not seeded then ).  In any event, looking forward to what should be a reasonably successful season.

[DomJamesToTheBasket]

I agree that we should be better, but projecting NCAA success as the bar is a recipe for disappointment. Look at the 2008-09 team.

So true. That team could have gone really far had Dominic not been injured.  I couldn't believe it when it was announced that DJ would play in the 2nd round. What a miraculous recovery albeit in a severely limited role.  Now that is a WARRIOR!

[dgies9156]

I agree that we should be better, but projecting NCAA success as the bar is a recipe for disappointment.

Baloney!

What the heck do you play the game for?

I want a realistic chance at a Final Four and another championship before I go see the Big Warrior in the sky! Isn't that what we pray for at the Prayer of the Faithful at Gesu, just before World Peace and an end to suffering?

[NersEllenson]

I agree that we should be better, but projecting NCAA success as the bar is a recipe for disappointment. Look at the 2008-09 team. Without a doubt, Buzz's best team, and probably the best Marquette team since Wade declared for the draft. Despite only making the second round, I still look at that as a very successful season.

Looking at next year, I think a realistic goal is 25-8 (less than 24-9 and I'll be disappointed) going into the tournament. Anything past that is gravy.

Here's what I think is different and why Buzz is doing a better job at MU than Crean ever did.  This year's team ***could*** likely play through an injury to a key contributor.  The DEPTH/QUALITY of talent on this year's MU team is better than we've seen in a LONG, LONG, time....and better than that 2009 team.  MU may only have 11 guys on the squad this year, but they are 11 high major players - which is what Buzz stated was his goal Day 1 at MU - to build a roster full of high major players.

Talent generally prevails in the NCAA - and I think MU is getting to the point where we no longer need to obsess about matchups in the NCAA's 1st/even 2nd rounds.  We should expect to go to the NCAA and win these 1st and 2nd round games...most years...given the way Buzz has been recruiting.

[tower912]

I disagree on one point.    A serious injury to Cadougan and we are in deep guano. 

[NersEllenson]

I disagree on one point.    A serious injury to Cadougan and we are in deep guano. 

I thought about that as I was posting my comment...and this would be my biggest fear heading into the season - yet I think we'd find a way to make it work - as Buzz wants guys who can initiate offense and are versatile enough to do so.  That could come from Jamil Wilson as a Point Forward, possibly Vander, Mayo, DJO, or Derrick Wilson.  Since Buzz's offense isn't specifically based on running set plays with guys at set positions - it has more flexibility to adapt to such an injury.  As Buzz says:  We want to recruit guys who can: pass, dribble and shoot.

[brewcity77]

Baloney!

What the heck do you play the game for?

I want a realistic chance at a Final Four and another championship before I go see the Big Warrior in the sky! Isn't that what we pray for at the Prayer of the Faithful at Gesu, just before World Peace and an end to suffering?

There's a difference between having those as long-term goals and having them as single-season goals. I think it's fair to say that you want to see regular NCAA success, say three Sweet 16s, an Elite 8, and a Final Four every 10 years. And that you want another title in the next 20 years or so. It's high hopes, but there's nothing wrong with that. However, to say "anything less than an Elite 8 in 2012" is failure is just silly. Does that make the season a failure if you get an awful match-up or are pitted against that year's Butler in the second or third round?

I'm not saying I don't want, and honestly expect, NCAA success, but I'm not going to call 2008-09 a failure because we only made the second round.

Also...Ners, I think you're underrating 2008-09. That team had four guys that will likely get some PT in the NBA next season: Matthews, McNeil, Hayward, and Butler. James and Burke may not have had the same post-MU success, but both were definitely high-major players. Cubillan and Acker both proved they were high-major guys as seniors, while Fulce and Otule have also been very good players (oh, if for Fulce having healthy knees...). That's ten guys that were legitimate high-major players on that roster, about the same as we'll have in 2011-12. Sure, guys like Fulce, Otule, and Cooby may not have been huge contributors on that team, but this year's team will have talented guys that are end-of-bench players as well.

You can hate Tom Crean all you want, but that 2008-09 team might be the best team Crean (mostly) assembled. They were deservedly ranked in the top-10, and if not for James' injury, could have challenged for the Big East regular season title, earned a top-3 seed, and been a legitimate Final Four contender. I know the final result was disappointing, but in my opinion we've had three truly great teams since Al left. 1994, 2003, and 2009 were those three. Despite last year's Sweet 16, that team wasn't nearly as good as 2009, and next year's team, while promising, has a lot of work to do to get to that level.

[dgies9156]

There's a difference between having those as long-term goals and having them as single-season goals. I think it's fair to say that you want to see regular NCAA success, say three Sweet 16s, an Elite 8, and a Final Four every 10 years. And that you want another title in the next 20 years or so. It's high hopes, but there's nothing wrong with that. However, to say "anything less than an Elite 8 in 2012" is failure is just silly. Does that make the season a failure if you get an awful match-up or are pitted against that year's Butler in the second or third round?

Brew, I want to be Number 1 next year! I want a legit shot at the top eschelon of college basketball each year we take the floor.

We ran into a "Butler" once. It was Miami of Ohio in 1978. We were defending national champions and we were upset by a crap-job of a team that had no business winning. That was a disappointing season, to put it mildly. Never been as angry at a Marquette team as I was that day -- even during the Dukiet years.

Look, we're not going to win the NCAA every year -- only UCLA did that. But being a legitimate Top 10 team with an NCAA Championship goal is something many of us remember well. Sure, Al got upset in the NCAAs a few times (including at least one because of a terrible call), but we were a Top 10 team and a legitimate threat everytime our team took the floor. What I want is a return to the days of Al

[mug644]

Brew, I want to be Number 1 next year! I want a legit shot at the top eschelon of college basketball each year we take the floor.

We ran into a "Butler" once. It was Miami of Ohio in 1978. We were defending national champions and we were upset by a crap-job of a team that had no business winning. That was a disappointing season, to put it mildly. Never been as angry at a Marquette team as I was that day -- even during the Dukiet years.

Look, we're not going to win the NCAA every year -- only UCLA did that. But being a legitimate Top 10 team with an NCAA Championship goal is something many of us remember well. Sure, Al got upset in the NCAAs a few times (including at least one because of a terrible call), but we were a Top 10 team and a legitimate threat everytime our team took the floor. What I want is a return to the days of Al

And that's all you want. And you want it now. Do you at least think we're on the right track?

[brewcity77]

Brew, I want to be Number 1 next year! I want a legit shot at the top eschelon of college basketball each year we take the floor.

We ran into a "Butler" once. It was Miami of Ohio in 1978. We were defending national champions and we were upset by a crap-job of a team that had no business winning. That was a disappointing season, to put it mildly. Never been as angry at a Marquette team as I was that day -- even during the Dukiet years.

Look, we're not going to win the NCAA every year -- only UCLA did that. But being a legitimate Top 10 team with an NCAA Championship goal is something many of us remember well. Sure, Al got upset in the NCAAs a few times (including at least one because of a terrible call), but we were a Top 10 team and a legitimate threat everytime our team took the floor. What I want is a return to the days of Al

Well, it's certainly lofty expectations. Being top-10 year in and year out is something even the UNCs of the world struggle with (they did miss the tourney not long ago). I think that a more realistic goal is being top-20 year in and year out, with top-10 seasons not uncommon. I don't know we'll ever match the heights of Al again, it was simply a different time. But I think we are in a better position to get close to that than we ever have been. Even after the Final Four, you didn't see us really make the most of it.

Looking at the consistency of Buzz's recruiting, it's amazing to think how well he could recruit with a Final Four on the resume. He's brought in at least one consensus top-100 player in his first five recruiting classes, and is constantly backing that up with promising three-star recruits. If he got that high-level NCAA success and could move his recruiting up a notch, we'd be just a step below the UNCs, Dukes, and Kentuckys of the world. Do that, and I think we'll get pretty close to your lofty goals, as long as Buzz stays.

[avid1010]

Brew, I want to be Number 1 next year! I want a legit shot at the top eschelon of college basketball each year we take the floor.

We ran into a "Butler" once. It was Miami of Ohio in 1978. We were defending national champions and we were upset by a crap-job of a team that had no business winning. That was a disappointing season, to put it mildly. Never been as angry at a Marquette team as I was that day -- even during the Dukiet years.

Look, we're not going to win the NCAA every year -- only UCLA did that. But being a legitimate Top 10 team with an NCAA Championship goal is something many of us remember well. Sure, Al got upset in the NCAAs a few times (including at least one because of a terrible call), but we were a Top 10 team and a legitimate threat everytime our team took the floor. What I want is a return to the days of Al

If you want a return to the days of Al, go back to the 70's because those days are gone.  Just as the days of John Wooden are gone for UCLA.  The game is different, recruiting is different, etc.  Hell, the conference realignments blows up in our face and we might all be wishing for the days of Buzz.  I'm not saying Buzz can't do it, but it's going to take time, and some luck in terms of the BEAST conference staying together and strong.

[NersEllenson]

Also...Ners, I think you're underrating 2008-09. That team had four guys that will likely get some PT in the NBA next season: Matthews, McNeil, Hayward, and Butler. James and Burke may not have had the same post-MU success, but both were definitely high-major players. Cubillan and Acker both proved they were high-major guys as seniors, while Fulce and Otule have also been very good players (oh, if for Fulce having healthy knees...). That's ten guys that were legitimate high-major players on that roster, about the same as we'll have in 2011-12. Sure, guys like Fulce, Otule, and Cooby may not have been huge contributors on that team, but this year's team will have talented guys that are end-of-bench players as well.

You can hate Tom Crean all you want, but that 2008-09 team might be the best team Crean (mostly) assembled. They were deservedly ranked in the top-10, and if not for James' injury, could have challenged for the Big East regular season title, earned a top-3 seed, and been a legitimate Final Four contender. I know the final result was disappointing, but in my opinion we've had three truly great teams since Al left. 1994, 2003, and 2009 were those three. Despite last year's Sweet 16, that team wasn't nearly as good as 2009, and next year's team, while promising, has a lot of work to do to get to that level.

Brew - I don't really hate Tom Crean in any way - seriously - I am glad for what he did while at MU.  I just like Buzz a lot better and think he has a higher ceiling.

The 2009 team definitely was good - I'd put them right behind 2003, and better than 1994.  That team was a few points away from an Elite 8 as Mizzou pretty much dominated Memphis next round - perhaps MU would have done the same. 
Perhaps there was a similar depth of talent on that 2009 team as this upcoming one - but I certainly don't think Fulce (as a sophomore), Otule as a freshman, Acker and Cubiallan had nearly the talent/length/etc. of a Jamial Jones, Blue, Juan Anderson, Jamil Wilson, Devante Gardner, etc.  Cadougan could prove to be as good as James this upcoming season (not as good of defender - but I certainly see Cadougan being as good offensively, if not better than James - and he's alread a better passer/true point).

[bilsu]

The 2009 team should also of had Mbakwe on it, but he bailed just before the start of class. That team prior to Mbakwe's departutre had more telent and experince than this years team.

[dgies9156]

If you want a return to the days of Al, go back to the 70's because those days are gone.  Just as the days of John Wooden are gone for UCLA.  The game is different, recruiting is different, etc.  Hell, the conference realignments blows up in our face and we might all be wishing for the days of Buzz.  I'm not saying Buzz can't do it, but it's going to take time, and some luck in terms of the BEAST conference staying together and strong.

Baloney. We need consistency to be with the Kansases, North Carolinas, Dukes, Syracuses etc. I would conceed it is more competitive, with more than twice the number of division one schools we had in the 1970s. But Buzz is leading us in the right direction and if we can do on the court what we've done in recruiting, we'll be back in Al-land.

By the way, I had dinner with a friend of mine from Kentucky who is a die-hard. His comment was he wished he had some of our recruiting because he is sooo tired of the "one-and-done" jock Calapari is bringing in.

[GGGG]

I am not sure a consistant top 10 program is a realistic goal...at least in the short term.  We are headed in the right direction.  Our next goal should be a more consistant BE program - like Pitt or Nova.  Once we reach that level, and our recruiting steps up accordingly, moving up to the UConn or Louisville level becomes more likely.