Pro Am Highlights

[GGGG]

If you took the label off of Thomas as a walk-on, and instead he came to MU billed like Novak, as a Top 100 recruit - my guess is people would be raving about the kid, and not questioning his ability to contribute in the least.

No kidding....  That's like saying if Todd Mayo were actually Michael Jordan, he'd be pretty good.

Yet again Ners, you are a getting a little too excited here.

[NersEllenson]

No kidding....  That's like saying if Todd Mayo were actually Michael Jordan, he'd be pretty good.

Yet again Ners, you are a getting a little too excited here.

We'll see how it plays out....and you can reference my past enthusiasm (and Wes Matthews) for Singleton if you want - but we know Singleton not being at MU anymore had nothing to do with his playing ability.  Again, I'm not saying Thomas will be a star - but the kid will get minutes at MU.

As for your Todd Mayo/Jordan analogy - and my Jake Thomas/Steve Novak analogy - don't see there being any similarity.  The point simply was that if Thomas were a Top 100 recruit, people would be all over how good he was going to be (based on these ProAm performances), and wouldn't have nearly the skepticism.  Heck, many that have gone to ProAM games have actually been able to be objective about things and look beyond the walk on label and say the kid will be a contributor at MU...don't think anybody thinks he's gonna be star.

Unfortunately for the departed Bondsmen, he finally got his wish and we got ourselves a traditional - and ironically I'm bullish on the traditional Jake Thomas. 

[brewcity77]

I've been out there, I've watched Thomas. He has great range, the best I've seen since Novak. I think he will definitely contribute on the practice court. I think it's possible he could get more meaningful minutes than Frozena, honestly, he really should.

The difference is simply when he's joining us. There's an unbelievable glut of talent here and coming in over the next couple years. Blue's defense will get him minutes. Jones will have a two-year edge in terms of on-court experience and is also a long-range sniper. TJ Taylor was a top-100 recruit before getting sidetracked to Paris JC. And we haven't really seen much of Mayo or Ferguson. In addition, there's a very realistic chance that Anderson and Wilson's natural guard skills will have them playing more of point forward roles or even one of them playing the 2 when they are on the floor together.

Thomas could get time, I'm just saying don't count your chickens. There is a huge glut of competition at the 2-3 position that he will likely be projecting at. Honestly, his best chances might be playing the 1 (which he has done with some success at the MPA) since Derrick plays like a combo guard and we don't yet have another dedicated 1 signed for 2012 (come on, Kris Dunn!).

He'll get a chance, but I'm sure Buzz has made it clear to Thomas that he's guaranteed nothing.

[GGGG]

As for your Todd Mayo/Jordan analogy - and my Jake Thomas/Steve Novak analogy - don't see there being any similarity.  The point simply was that if Thomas were a Top 100 recruit, people would be all over how good he was going to be (based on these ProAm performances),

But he's not a top 100 recruit...just like Todd Mayo isn't Michael Jordan.

What, we are just supposed to forget his previous two years???

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The point simply was that if Thomas were a Top 100 recruit, people would be all over how good he was going to be (based on these ProAm performances), and wouldn't have nearly the skepticism.

That's a bold statement.

[APieperFan3]

I didn't see Junior in last year's Pro-Am, but I thought he was the best player on the court at the Halloween scrimmage. Then he struggled before coming on strong late in the year. Think this will be a big year for him.

I thought the same thing, Lenny. The way he got by AND attacked the hoop while keeping a smaller/quicker Reggie Smith on his hip got me very excited for his "sophomore" year.

It was good to see him come on strong towards the end of the year - and in big spots (Syracuse drive/score). I do think that he is a MUCH different player playing against a smaller defender - as he uses his body well. But this year, he looks to have that next gear to really get by A LOT of BEast defenders - while hopefully keeping his strength and ability to finish (sometimes pretty crafty) around the hoop. And...if his jump shot keeps improving...look out!!**

(Not saying JR is going to be hitting 40% from deep...but a pass first PG who you HAVE to at least keep an eye on outside the 3pt arc can be headaches for team defenses)

[NersEllenson]

But he's not a top 100 recruit...just like Todd Mayo isn't Michael Jordan.

What, we are just supposed to forget his previous two years???

I see your point - mine is simply that judging a player based on their ranking or label, such as "walk on," leads to preconceived notions of the player's caliber.  Perhaps rightly so, but not always accurate.  Think we all can agree Devante Gardner, the lowest rated freshman recruit made a bigger impact on the team last year than his 5-star and 4-star classmates.  Thomas put up 13 points (as I recall against MU)...last year.  His range/shooting are of an elite variety...that will earn him some minutes at MU.  Again, not saying the kid is going to be a star...

[brewcity77]

I see your point - mine is simply that judging a player based on their ranking or label, such as "walk on," leads to preconceived notions of the player's caliber.  Perhaps rightly so, but not always accurate.  Think we all can agree Devante Gardner, the lowest rated freshman recruit made a bigger impact on the team last year than his 5-star and 4-star classmates.  Thomas put up 13 points (as I recall against MU)...last year.  His range/shooting are of an elite variety...that will earn him some minutes at MU.  Again, not saying the kid is going to be a star...

No way would I agree with that. Vander Blue had a much bigger impact on the team than Gardner. Much, much bigger. Vander played in all 37 games, getting 19 mpg, providing quality defense, and even scoring more than DG (5.1 to 4.6 ppg). Granted, Gardner was more efficient scoring, but he missed 4 games and many of the games he played in were just getting some garbage time minutes (10 games with 5 minutes or less). Vander may not have delivered the 10 ppg everyone was hoping for out of a 5-star recruit, but he was our biggest impact freshman last year.

And while I understand where you're coming from, and I recognize that Buzz has done a good job of finding guys outside the top 100 rankings, Thomas isn't the only potential underrated guy. Maybe he's overlooked, but what if Mayo and Taylor are just as precocious relative to their rankings? Either way, we have a glut of options, and I think that's a good problem.

[NersEllenson]

No way would I agree with that. Vander Blue had a much bigger impact on the team than Gardner. Much, much bigger. Vander played in all 37 games, getting 19 mpg, providing quality defense, and even scoring more than DG (5.1 to 4.6 ppg). Granted, Gardner was more efficient scoring, but he missed 4 games and many of the games he played in were just getting some garbage time minutes (10 games with 5 minutes or less). Vander may not have delivered the 10 ppg everyone was hoping for out of a 5-star recruit, but he was our biggest impact freshman last year.

And while I understand where you're coming from, and I recognize that Buzz has done a good job of finding guys outside the top 100 rankings, Thomas isn't the only potential underrated guy. Maybe he's overlooked, but what if Mayo and Taylor are just as precocious relative to their rankings? Either way, we have a glut of options, and I think that's a good problem.

I would propose if you looked at +/- differential for Blue vs. Gardner, we'd find that Gardner's net impact was more + than - compared to Blue's.  Vander did provide some solid D that is hard to quantify, but even still, some of that might be beared out in a +/- analysis.  Wish I knew of a good site to go to, to be able to find the +/- stat by player - felt at some point someone here had such a site.

I personally didn't have qualms with Blue's performance, and didn't have sky high expectations for him even though he was a 5-star recruit.  He's very young for his class, and going from Wisconsin HS Ball to Big East is a huge jump. 

Definitely agree that we will have a glut of options in the backcourt in 2012-2013.

[brewcity77]

+/- is sometimes deceptive, however. Just take the UNC game into account. I'm sure DG had a great +/-, but by that time Carolina simply didn't care. Regardless of the +/-, Blue played far more, and far more important, minutes for us than Gardner did. I like both of their futures, but in terms of the 2010-11 season, Blue was the bigger contributor.

[bilsu]

+/- is sometimes deceptive, however. Just take the UNC game into account. I'm sure DG had a great +/-, but by that time Carolina simply didn't care. Regardless of the +/-, Blue played far more, and far more important, minutes for us than Gardner did. I like both of their futures, but in terms of the 2010-11 season, Blue was the bigger contributor.

I do not care what the actual numbers were, you will never convince me that Blue had a better impact than Gardner. First of all, Blue's production is easier for MU to replace than Gardner's.  Second of all the statistics will not show how many bad shots Blue took when the team was on a rally.

[GGGG]

How can someone have more impact if they play in 10 less minutes per game and scores less?  And frankly wasn't a defensive liability like DG was at times?  I just watched the Syracuse game from the tournament, and Gardner didn't even see the floor in the second half because his defense was so poor.

I think the problem that you guys are facing is the Blue didn't meet everyone's expectations and was viewed as a disappointment, while Gardner exceeded expectations.  But Blue clearly had a bigger positive impact on last year's team than Gardner.  And frankly I don't even think it's close.

[Hards Alumni]

I do not care what the actual numbers were, you will never convince me that Blue had a better impact than Gardner. First of all, Blue's production is easier for MU to replace than Gardner's.  Second of all the statistics will not show how many bad shots Blue took when the team was on a rally.

Are you effing kidding me.

Blue actually played defense.  Gardner just got blown by or fouled guys.

Blue played 19.0 minutes per game... Gardner 9.0

Blue is ahead of Gardner in EVERY statistical category!

Was his offense lacking for most of the season?  Yes.

Were there games when DG looked hard to stop?  Yes.

But we are talking about the whole season, not a couple of great performances.

If you really think that Gardner had the bigger impact, you are crazy.

[brewcity77]

I do not care what the actual numbers were, you will never convince me that Blue had a better impact than Gardner. First of all, Blue's production is easier for MU to replace than Gardner's.  Second of all the statistics will not show how many bad shots Blue took when the team was on a rally.

Never said better. I said bigger. Blue was a far more impactful player as a freshman, for better or worse. DG may have scored more points in fewer minutes, but Blue had a lot more to do with our fortunes over the course of the season than DG did.

[Lennys Tap]

Blue was much better defensively. Gardner was much better offensively, outshooting Blue from the field (57.6% to 39.4%) and the line (75.4% to 60.8%). Both had weaknesses, but Vander scared me more - maybe because I had higher expectations for him.

[NersEllenson]

Think its time for a poll....coming up boys..

[brewcity77]

Note how the poll includes "more positive" impact, which was never part of the original discussion. You're trying to slant this argument like Chicos. My, how the wheel has turned...

[Lighthouse 84]

Note how the poll includes "more positive" impact, which was never part of the original discussion. You're trying to slant this argument like Chicos. My, how the wheel has turned...

Interesting that you and Ners each have 2545 posts...maybe Ners could start a poll as to who will post more by the end of the year.

[GGGG]

Note how the poll includes "more positive" impact, which was never part of the original discussion. You're trying to slant this argument like Chicos. My, how the wheel has turned...

I don't think it matters either way.  Blue had a more positive impact.  The game is played on both ends of the floor, and Blue was by far the better defender.  That is what cost Gardner minutes during the season.

[NersEllenson]

Note how the poll includes "more positive" impact, which was never part of the original discussion. You're trying to slant this argument like Chicos. My, how the wheel has turned...

Really Brew??  Chill out - you are flying off the handle on this debate, and that isn't usually like you.  Talk about splitting hairs - think I'd write a poll that said; Which player made a bigger, negative impact - Vander Blue or Davante Gardner??  I think everyone in this thread felt by "impact" we were discussing the positive attributes both Blue and Gardner brought to the team.

Wasn't trying to slant anything...seems it is a very reasonable topic to debate...given the poll results and stat sheet.

[brewcity77]

Really Brew??  Chill out - you are flying off the handle on this debate, and that isn't usually like you.  Talk about splitting hairs - think I'd write a poll that said; Which player made a bigger, negative impact - Vander Blue or Davante Gardner??  I think everyone in this thread felt by "impact" we were discussing the positive attributes both Blue and Gardner brought to the team.

Wasn't trying to slant anything...seems it is a very reasonable topic to debate...given the poll results and stat sheet.

I'm just sick of everyone minimizing Blue's role on last year's team. The guy comes in as a freshman on a team where the starting spots were pretty well all locked down, save for maybe the second forward role that went to Jae (and Blue was never in contention for). So he becomes our sixth man, getting 19 mpg off the bench, giving us excellent defense, and filling in at 3 positions, and he's roundly lambasted as a failure.

Yes, his offense underwhelmed and his shot clearly needs work, but there were really four tiers of players in terms of impact last year:

Star Players: Jimmy Butler, DJO, Jae Crowder

These guys carried the load most nights, and our wins or losses were usually based upon their play.

Major Contributors: Dwight Buycks, Chris Otule, Junior Cadougan, Vander Blue

These guys were either starters or first-off-the-bench type guys that got major minutes and had an impact in virtually every game.

Back-ups: Davante Gardner, Joe Fulce, Erik Williams

These guys had moments of brilliance, but rarely had significant impacts on the actual flow of the game. They simply didn't get in enough games or get enough minutes when they did to really be major contributors.

The Other Guys: Jamail Jones, Reggie Smith, Rob Frozena

Either weren't here long enough or just didn't play enough to have any real impact. Had they not been on the team, or were they replaced with guys off the street, it wouldn't have made much difference.

Blue gets minimized constantly because he wasn't honorable mention all-Big East, or because people don't like his shot, or because he started on the U-18 team and not here, or whatever. Listen, I'll be the first to acknowledge how DG has clearly worked hard to trim down so he can make more of an impact next year. He needed to get in better shape to get more minutes to be a more important player on this team. But that's just one more testament as to why Blue was more impactful last year. Because he was in shape, because he was getting minutes.

Listen, it's easy to hold up the Duke game (DG's best performance) and the UNC game (which makes no sense, he played garbage time), but what else does he have on the resume? 17 points against Prairie View? His (admittedly huge) role in the Bucknell comeback? Those were the first two games of the season. What does he have after that? 12 points in 10 minutes against Georgetown? Great...he also fouled out. In fact, once you get past his 48 points in 53 minutes in the first five games, his contributions really went down.

His scoring drops to 3.7 ppg over his final 28 appearances, his scoring/minute goes from 0.51 to 0.43. How much of his season was built off those first five games? Meanwhile, Vander kept on chugging, earning major minutes and major criticism. All the while, willie warrior is elevating Davante to cult hero status, and suddenly Ners has jumped on the willie warrior bandwagon.

There's a reason guys like Otule and Blue get more minutes than Gardner. Actually, two reasons. Conditioning and defense. I'm really glad Gardner has improved the first. Now I just hope he can improve the second so that in 2011-12 and beyond he can have a bigger impact. But the past is the past, and no amount of finagling will change that Gardner's impact in 2010-11 simply doesn't rival guys like Otule, Blue, Buycks, or Cadougan. He simply didn't play enough.