Same ol' Thuggins

[brewcity77]

I found this on a WVU board while I was trying to get info on former top 100 recruit Noah Cottrill and it gave me a bit of a smile...

I have counted that SIX of our players currently on the roster have either been arrested, cited, or suspended.

Truck Bryant - cited (twice)
Joe Mazzulla - arrested AND cited
Cam Thoroughman - arrested
Dalton Pepper - cited
Noah Cottrill - suspended
Casey Mitchell - suspended

Is this correct? I researched it and I'm pretty sure I'm right.

Don't remember this list being posted here back in October. Sure, it's about half-a-year old, but I think it's interesting that Bob Thuggins just can't seem to recruit quality guys at any program he's at. Who knows...maybe we're no better and just have better lawyers, but at least our incidents aren't resulting in suspensions and arrests.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Considering what our team has gone through with the law in the last few months, four guys, I'm not sure the timing on this is very good for us to be calling out another school.  Maybe we do have better lawyers, maybe we coverup things better, maybe our transgressions just aren't as bad....who knows.

I did note that WVU's APR scores were better than ours, which is a turnaround from prior Huggins teams....though the kids were Biehline recruits

http://www.rumbleinthegarden.com/2011/5/24/2188148/big-east-ncaa-apr-multiyear-scores-mens-basketball

[mviale]

We have one guy cited.  Am I missing something?

[ChicosBailBonds]

We have one guy cited.  Am I missing something?

Correct.  One guy cited...but many more drug through the mud and MU along with it

You are ignoring the sexual assault \ harassment investigation....4 MU athletes....we've had plenty of our own issues.

http://www.wisn.com/r/27345574/detail.html

[tower912]

Pretty sure the prosecutor didn't find enough evidence to prosecute.    Not saying that nothing happened or that MU handled it perfectly.    But the bottom line, after both an MU investigation and a MPD investigation, not arrest, no suspensions.   I'm not particularly happy about it, either, but there were no arrests.   

[NersEllenson]

It is hard to believe that every 18-22 year old kid that gets recruited to play college ball isn't a saint - and might actual drink alcohol on occasion, get into a fight, and hit on a girl who may have no interest.  Marquette really needs to take a look at itself and figure out a way to eliminate such personality types from its athletic and academic admissions process.

Wait a minute - if that were the case, MU wouldn't have a student body.

The angst of some of the self righteous here over a few scrapes with controversy/public safety/MPD, is pretty ridiculous.  Of all of the "incidents" at MU - exactly 1 resulted in a ticket being issued.  None resulted in players being suspended or losing time.  Keep in mind, Pat Hazel was relegated to the bench for the whole Big East season after his transgression - so Buzz has demonstrated an ability to discipline his players for transgressions he deems worthy.  The fact no significant  punishments appeared, to me indicates the merit/legitimacy of the non-ticketed allegations was insignificant..

[Lennys Tap]

Correct.  One guy cited...but many more drug through the mud and MU along with it

You are ignoring the sexual assault \ harassment investigation....4 MU athletes....we've had plenty of our own issues.

http://www.wisn.com/r/27345574/detail.html

We've had guys banned by the NCAA (Mortenson), guys "invited" to leave (Matthews and Hazel) and one guy asked to leave who was granted a reprieve (Acker). We've also had a former player (McNeal) kicked off his European team and sent ignominiously home. The best and highest profile player in Marquette history was accused by his high school sweetheart and then wife of horrid and downright scary behavior. And I'm sure there were many,many more things kept "in house" that we never heard about. Nothing from you about any of that. Serious hand wringing about a one punch fight and an incident we know virtually nothing about but didn't amount to sexual assault according to your alma mater and the Milwaukee PD. Wish I could say I was surprised.

[mviale]

Correct.  One guy cited...but many more drug through the mud and MU along with it

You are ignoring the sexual assault \ harassment investigation....4 MU athletes....we've had plenty of our own issues.

http://www.wisn.com/r/27345574/detail.html

Facts would be appreciated.  Thanks

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

We've had guys banned by the NCAA (Mortenson), guys "invited" to leave (Matthews and Hazel) and one guy asked to leave who was granted a reprieve (Acker). We've also had a former player (McNeal) kicked off his European team and sent ignominiously home. The best and highest profile player in Marquette history was accused by his high school sweetheart and then wife of horrid and downright scary behavior. And I'm sure there were many,many more things kept "in house" that we never heard about. Nothing from you about any of that. Serious hand wringing about a one punch fight and an incident we know virtually nothing about but didn't amount to sexual assault according to your alma mater and the Milwaukee PD. Wish I could say I was surprised.

How about the "let's insult their intelligence" stories like the tackling dummy?

[Marquette84]

We've had guys banned by the NCAA (Mortenson), guys "invited" to leave (Matthews and Hazel) and one guy asked to leave who was granted a reprieve (Acker). We've also had a former player (McNeal) kicked off his European team and sent ignominiously home. The best and highest profile player in Marquette history was accused by his high school sweetheart and then wife of horrid and downright scary behavior. And I'm sure there were many,many more things kept "in house" that we never heard about. Nothing from you about any of that. Serious hand wringing about a one punch fight and an incident we know virtually nothing about but didn't amount to sexual assault according to your alma mater and the Milwaukee PD. Wish I could say I was surprised.

So, you're agreeing with Chicos that we shouldn't be throwing stones at Huggins, right? 

[warthog-driver]

So, you're agreeing with Chicos that we shouldn't be throwing stones at Huggins, right? 

No, Joanie. He is pointing out that quite a number of Tanned Tommy's recruits have shamed themselves and their alma mater. Perhaps we should begin mentioning both Huggins and the Bronzed Beast of Bloomington in the same sour breath when it comes to distasteful, illegal, and unethical player behavior. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

We've had guys banned by the NCAA (Mortenson), guys "invited" to leave (Matthews and Hazel) and one guy asked to leave who was granted a reprieve (Acker). We've also had a former player (McNeal) kicked off his European team and sent ignominiously home. The best and highest profile player in Marquette history was accused by his high school sweetheart and then wife of horrid and downright scary behavior. And I'm sure there were many,many more things kept "in house" that we never heard about. Nothing from you about any of that. Serious hand wringing about a one punch fight and an incident we know virtually nothing about but didn't amount to sexual assault according to your alma mater and the Milwaukee PD. Wish I could say I was surprised.

That is correct Lenny....we've had our own issues.  Whether it's the most current ones or ones in the past.  Again, we are hardly saints which was my point.  Anything else?

[wyzgy]

Considering what our team has gone through with the law in the last few months, four guys, I'm not sure the timing on this is very good for us to be calling out another school.  Maybe we do have better lawyers, maybe we coverup things better, maybe our transgressions just aren't as bad....who knows.

I did note that WVU's APR scores were better than ours, which is a turnaround from prior Huggins teams....though the kids were Biehline recruits

http://www.rumbleinthegarden.com/2011/5/24/2188148/big-east-ncaa-apr-multiyear-scores-mens-basketball

sorry chico, but what we were ALLEGED to have done, doesn't compare. i'm not proud of any of it, but what we have here are horse apples and oranges.  as far as we know, words were exchanged, whoa bad boys.  a physical altercation occurred, wait, death penalty.  you can't tell me if something really nasty happenned, an attorney cleaned it all up??  you would have seen mommies and daddies with guys in dark suits and stern faces walking in to mu to meet our dark suits.  get off your high pony.  i don't know who you represent or rooooooot for, but nice high road though

[Marquette84]

No, Joanie. He is pointing out that quite a number of Tanned Tommy's recruits have shamed themselves and their alma mater. Perhaps we should begin mentioning both Huggins and the Bronzed Beast of Bloomington in the same sour breath when it comes to distasteful, illegal, and unethical player behavior. 

So your point is tha Lenny went completely off topic with yet anothernanti-Crean rant?

We all get that you and he don't like Crean.  The point is whether you can rise above that to realize tha we are in no position to claim the moral hig road right now.

Or are you stuck on stupid.

[MUMac]

So your point is tha Lenny went completely off topic with yet anothernanti-Crean rant?

We all get that you and he don't like Crean.  The point is whether you can rise above that to realize tha we are in no position to claim the moral hig road right now.

Or are you stuck on stupid.

Your pomposity and rants are really tiresome.  The last comment completely uncalled for, but typical of the level you sink.  I have had enough of your grandstanding and you finally became the first for me to ignore - congrats, it takes a lot to get there, but you managed to do it! 

[bilsu]

It is really hard to compare programs. All you have to do is look at the expenditures reported in 990's. Each school uses their own allocation methods for expenditures, so you really cannot determine who spends more or less for basketball. The same goes for APR scores. How do we know how many real classes a player takes. Washington, who we are playing in the Jimmy V Classic, is making a special class for their players to take while they are in New York. They attend a Broadway play and write a paper about it. There were some other things they also had to do, but essentially it was a three week course for credit. We also do not know whether school A or B grades players easier. As far as player getting in trouble, that is going to happen. We do know Huggins will suspend players. I am not arguing that we should, but we did not see any suspensions at MU. Hazel was not suspended, but he was quietly benched for the rest of the season. Is that better than suspending him for three games and then letting him play, if he could help the team? Whether you like Huggins or not, it does not seem like he cuts his players slack when they goof up. How you discipline players is a really is a hard decision to make. Do you do it publically and every one knows about it? Do you do it internally and then everybody talks about the rummors? In the end the only real determining factor might be what kind of citizens the program produces. We will not know that answer for Buzz's players for another 10 or 20 years.

[Lennys Tap]

So your point is tha Lenny went completely off topic with yet anothernanti-Crean rant?

We all get that you and he don't like Crean.  The point is whether you can rise above that to realize tha we are in no position to claim the moral hig road right now.

Or are you stuck on stupid.
[/quote

You can't overlook bad behavior in one era and be sanctimonious about it in the next. It's hypocritical. Pointing out that Chicos has been consistently guilty of that over the past 12 years does not constitute an anti-Crean rant. It merely brings his objectivity into question on this topic.

If that makes me stuck on stupid in your world so be it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So your point is tha Lenny went completely off topic with yet anothernanti-Crean rant?

We all get that you and he don't like Crean.  The point is whether you can rise above that to realize tha we are in no position to claim the moral hig road right now.

Or are you stuck on stupid.

You can't overlook bad behavior in one era and be sanctimonious about it in the next. It's hypocritical. Pointing out that Chicos has been consistently guilty of that over the past 12 years does not constitute an anti-Crean rant. It merely brings his objectivity into question on this topic.

If that makes me stuck on stupid in your world so be it.

You've been on this board for only a few years...this board has only existed a few years longer than that...yet I've ignored bad behavior for 12 years?   Is this like your vast majority comment?  When you are teaching about options to your students, do you exaggerate this much to them?  How many untruths do you tell them?  I'm just curious because your hyperbole has no off switch.

Back on point....the hypocrisy here is incredible.

We have had our own problems for years...whether it's Toone, or Pop Sims punching his girlfriend, or 4 players accused of sexual assault, or eating ding dongs and smoking reefer while playing PS2 constantly and not going to class.  I can add probably 10 other examples in just the last 25 years.  Are we the only ones?  Nope....therefore these threads, AS I STATED, are probably unwarranted.

Finally to those that are upset I brought up the sexual assault allegations I ask you this.  IF Indiana (or Notre Dame, or Wisconsin, or fill in Big East school) had a situation where four basketball players were accused of sexual assault and the response by the school was NOT ONLY NOT going to the police but making sure the coach and athletic department were informed first, second and third, what would your response be?  Be honest.   We screwed up as a university, we looked terrible doing it....in fact, we did a disservice to those four because it looks like we covered something up.  They could be 100% innocent (and I hope they are), but considering how we handled it there will be a cloud over them because of the process we took.  The MPD basically said the evidence at this point is gone so they can't proceed.  Was there any evidence to begin with?  Who knows, but the cloud exists forever because of how we handled it.

"No law enforcement agency was able to adequately investigate this matter at the time it occurred, and the subsequent efforts by the Milwaukee Police Department were inhibited by the fact that it did not receive this information until several months after the incident occurred," District Attorney Chisholm said in a statement.

"There is no evidence that the coaching staff intended to interfere with the investigation," Chisholm said. "It highlights, however, that when proper procedure is not followed, it prevents an untainted interview with any suspect and provides an opportunity for the individuals allegedly involved as suspects or witnesses to compare recollections regarding the circumstances of the alleged conduct."

"An immediate and thorough investigation of this incident might have yielded additional compelling evidence," the district attorney said of the February incident. "Unfortunately, a police investigation taken even four weeks later was not able to produce corroborative evidence that would support a criminal prosecution."

Everyone here bellyaching over this knows they would go off the handle if this happened to one of our rivals (Lenny and a few others would lead the inquiry themselves if it happened in Bloomington).  If the DA in Madison, South Bend, Bloomington or anywhere said this about the program in their jurisdiction, people here would go ape crap. So spare me with your hypocrisy.  MU has had issues like many other schools over the decades, many of which those of us in the department knew about that never came to light.  We should not be ripping down any other program until ours has no issues....which it doesn't.  

[Lennys Tap]

I've read your stuff for years on Dodds. The Chicos I remember spent a lot of time on that site (and on other school's sites) singing MU's praises and criticizing our opponents. Quite frankly, you were so one sided (pro MU, anti others, predominately UW) that it sometimes made me squirm. In April of 2008 that changed. We became the bad guys, and any nit you could pick with the program (hiring process, whom we hired, whom we recruited, how we recruited them, game preparation, in game strategy, our player's on and off court performance, etc.,etc.,etc.) became grist for your mill. The same practices which in the past engendered staunch defenses of MU (see D Saunders) now resulted in virulent anti MU rants (see DJ Newbill). Your 180 on the program is clear, despite your mild protestations to the contrary ("I like Buzz", "TC was a douche" and other phrases that are rendered meaningless when one reads the "but" that inevitably follows)). Why not just give up the pretense. The truth will set you free.

[tower912]

I remember your defenses of Crean against Abe Froman on jsonline.   You ARE consistent in your spirited defense of Crean.    Lenny is right about the change in the rest of your tone.   You have become abefromanesque in your attacks on MU.

[NersEllenson]

Back on point....the hypocrisy here is incredible.

We have had our own problems for years...whether it's Toone, or Pop Sims punching his girlfriend, or 4 players accused of sexual assault, or eating ding dongs and smoking reefer while playing PS2 constantly and not going to class.  I can add probably 10 other examples in just the last 25 years.  Are we the only ones?  Nope....therefore these threads, AS I STATED, are probably unwarranted.

Finally to those that are upset I brought up the sexual assault allegations I ask you this.  IF Indiana (or Notre Dame, or Wisconsin, or fill in Big East school) had a situation where four basketball players were accused of sexual assault and the response by the school was NOT ONLY NOT going to the police but making sure the coach and athletic department were informed first, second and third, what would your response be?  Be honest.   We screwed up as a university, we looked terrible doing it....in fact, we did a disservice to those four because it looks like we covered something up.  They could be 100% innocent (and I hope they are), but considering how we handled it there will be a cloud over them because of the process we took.  

"No law enforcement agency was able to adequately investigate this matter at the time it occurred, and the subsequent efforts by the Milwaukee Police Department were inhibited by the fact that it did not receive this information until several months after the incident occurred," District Attorney Chisholm said in a statement.

"There is no evidence that the coaching staff intended to interfere with the investigation," Chisholm said. "It highlights, however, that when proper procedure is not followed, it prevents an untainted interview with any suspect and provides an opportunity for the individuals allegedly involved as suspects or witnesses to compare recollections regarding the circumstances of the alleged conduct."

"An immediate and thorough investigation of this incident might have yielded additional compelling evidence," the district attorney said of the February incident. "Unfortunately, a police investigation taken even four weeks later was not able to produce corroborative evidence that would support a criminal prosecution."

Couple of points - I highlighted the word "Accused" several times, as well as your statement "They could be 100% innocent."  Seems you are taking accusations and applying a Guilty until proven innocent approach??

Regardless of how MU handled the situation, what stopped the girl from going directly to the MPD?  There are some crazy women out there Chico's - and nothing stood in the way of the alleged victim's free will to go to the MPD if she didn't get the satisfaction out of MU's DPS. 

Obviously no university or fan enjoys having its athletes in the news for bad behavior, but think we can be too quick to judge on occasion, and also need to step back and recall our college years of being 18-22 years old.  Lots of gray area behavior tends to take place in those years - by many young men and women alike:  excessive drinking, flirtation, courtship, ego, etc.  The difference is that if it is John Doe who gets in an altercation and gets a ticket for fighting - John Doe isn't raked over coals by the public (and some "fans), whereas a Vander Blue is.  A price paid for being a high profile athlete indeed.  That said, don't think our fan base needs to rush to guilty until proven innocent conclusions.

[ringout]

I've read your stuff for years on Dodds. The Chicos I remember spent a lot of time on that site (and on other school's sites) singing MU's praises and criticizing our opponents. Quite frankly, you were so one sided (pro MU, anti others, predominately UW) that it sometimes made me squirm. In April of 2008 that changed. We became the bad guys, and any nit you could pick with the program (hiring process, whom we hired, whom we recruited, how we recruited them, game preparation, in game strategy, our player's on and off court performance, etc.,etc.,etc.) became grist for your mill. The same practices which in the past engendered staunch defenses of MU (see D Saunders) now resulted in virulent anti MU rants (see DJ Newbill). Your 180 on the program is clear, despite your mild protestations to the contrary ("I like Buzz", "TC was a douche" and other phrases that are rendered meaningless when one reads the "but" that inevitably follows)). Why not just give up the pretense. The truth will set you free.

Chicos, you have hit bottom.

You can raise issues with the program, without trashing it.  You consistently point out the negatives.  You claim to be a Marquette fan, but your actions (posts) show otherwise.  It's not what you say (I'm a fan).  It's what you do (the trashing).

You really have an axe to grind.  What is your beef against MU?  Really?

[Skatastrophy]

[Pakuni]

[Marquette84]

You can't overlook bad behavior in one era and be sanctimonious about it in the next. It's hypocritical. Pointing out that Chicos has been consistently guilty of that over the past 12 years does not constitute an anti-Crean rant. It merely brings his objectivity into question on this topic.

If that makes me stuck on stupid in your world so be it.

But the thread wasn't about chicos.  It was a thread on Huggins transgressions.

Chicos (correctly) pointed out that we are not beyond reproach on this issue and shouldn't be throwing any stones, citing out own recent issues.

For some reason, you feel compelled to question why chicos isn't using four of five year old examples instead of 2010-11 examples.

Look, I would be happy if Blue wasn't arrested or four other athletes of ours weren't put under a cloud of controversy. But they were. Therefore I don't think we should be so quick to accuse Huggins of doing anything wrong. It happens, and it's not the coache's fault. 

If you want to avoid hypocrisy, thn defend Huggins.  Or attack both Crean and Williams.

But you are stuck on stupid if you think that buzz deserves different treatment.