Here We Go Again ... Breathless Media Reports That Buzz Is Leaving For Texas A&M

[Lennys Tap]

There is one reason and one reason only that 84 puts so much stock in MU tying National Champion UCONN for 9th place in the Big East - anything to try to knock Buzz.

[reinko]

And folks say MUScoop has become unreadable. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

There is one reason and one reason only that 84 puts so much stock in MU tying National Champion UCONN for 9th place in the Big East - anything to try to knock Buzz.

So when people use facts and make factual statements...statements of truth...they are only there for sinister reasons and not as intended, statements of fact?  Am I readin that correctly?


Moving forward should we not use statements of fact?  Sort of like you do when evaluating other coaches or other posters....ahem..."vast majority"

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

And folks say MUScoop has become unreadable. 

+1.

Can this be merged into some sort of permanent Crean vs. Buzz pissing match thread?

[GGGG]

I know...months after being banned, the same tired bunch is engaging in the same tired debate.

[brewcity77]

And folks say MUScoop has become unreadable. 

+3

Because I'm counting Sultan's comment as +2

[Lennys Tap]

So when people use facts and make factual statements...statements of truth...they are only there for sinister reasons and not as intended, statements of fact?  Am I readin that correctly?


Moving forward should we not use statements of fact?  Sort of like you do when evaluating other coaches or other posters....ahem..."vast majority"

Fact #1: Due to Crean's April 2008 departure our entire senior and junior classes last year were jucos.
Fact#2: Despite having to cable last year's team together on the run (just as TC had to do at IU) MU tied national champion UCONN in the Big East standings.
Fact#3: Marquette advanced to the Sweet Sixteen for the second time in what, 16 or 17 years?

I have nothing against discussing any of those facts, but I do take exception to drawing false conclusions (opinions, not facts) from them. I think that someone who fairly considers ALL the facts and not just one of them would never conclude (as you and 84 do) that MU took a step back last year. To the contrary, all things considered I think we had a remarkable year in 2010-11.

[NersEllenson]

I know...months after being banned, the same tired bunch is engaging in the same tired debate.

Fair point - if only we didn't have 2 resident posters here who were hell bent on belittling the accomplishments of our CURRENT coaching staff and players.  Just hard to understand how 2 fans could be so consumed and complimentary about the past and so cynical and critical about the present. 

[MerrittsMustache]

Fair point - if only we didn't have 2 resident posters here who were hell bent on belittling the accomplishments of our CURRENT coaching staff and players.  Just hard to understand how 2 fans could be so consumed and complimentary about the past and so cynical and critical about the present. 

Those posters are sad, attention-starved people. Just don't play their games.

[Hards Alumni]

Fair point - if only we didn't have 2 resident posters here who were hell bent on belittling the accomplishments of our CURRENT coaching staff and players.  Just hard to understand how 2 fans could be so consumed and complimentary about the past and so cynical and critical about the present. 

So don't afford them the circle.

no one wins, and it just clogs the board with nonsense.

[brewcity77]

As much as this thread is well off-topic and barely readable anymore, MUScoop wouldn't be as much fun without 84 and CBB. For all the arguments that they may end up in, it's because they have no problem arguing the minority point of view, and when you are patient with the debates, both can be fairly reasonable.

[warthog-driver]

Don't exagerate.  Two (of four) recruits left...and none because of *how* he left.  (Considering one of them followed him to Indiana.)

Precisely. Nick Williams scurried like a rat to II, II. And look at how his loyalty to the Bronzed Beast of Bloomington was repaid.

[Marquette84]

Fact #1: Due to Crean's April 2008 departure our entire senior and junior classes last year were jucos.
Fact#2: Despite having to cable last year's team together on the run (just as TC had to do at IU) MU tied national champion UCONN in the Big East standings.
Fact#3: Marquette advanced to the Sweet Sixteen for the second time in what, 16 or 17 years?

I have nothing against discussing any of those facts, but I do take exception to drawing false conclusions (opinions, not facts) from them. I think that someone who fairly considers ALL the facts and not just one of them would never conclude (as you and 84 do) that MU took a step back last year. To the contrary, all things considered I think we had a remarkable year in 2010-11.

If you wanted to deal with facts, you'd admit that Buzz had only two scholarships to give his first year, and he filled them with Butler and McMorrow.

If you wanted to deal with facts:
--you'd admit that the departure of Hazel (who would have been a senior) had absolutely nothing to do with Crean.
--the departure of Mbakwe and Christopherson were at least a shared responsibility of Buzz--he was their assistant for their freshman year.
--the injury and redshirt keeping Otule (who would have been a junior) from being a junior this year had nothing to do with Crean.
--McMorrow's (would have been a junior) medical condition had nothing to do with Crean.
--the decision to sign Fulce in 2008 instead of a HS senior (who would be a junior) had nothing to do with the departure of Crean.

The only one of these facts that is open to any debate at all is the 2nd--and we'll probably always disagree on that.  I continue to think that because Buzz was on MU's staff for the 2007-2008 season, he had enough time to develop a coaching relationship with those players that should have been strong enough to convince them to stay when he was promoted to head coach.  

I don't see any evidence to think their decision to leave was related to Crean's departure. Neither player followed Crean.  Mbakwe stayed with the team another five months after Crean's departure.

If you want my opinion, my view is that after going through summer camps and sessions, Mbakwe decided that he didn't want to play for Buzz.

And I think Buzz thought he could do better than Christopherson and told told Scott that his scholarship wasn't going to be renewed.  Depending on whether you think that he used Scott's scholie for Butler or McMorrow, he either made a genius decision to grab Butler ahead of Kentucky or Iowa Sate, or took a gamble and failed on an unknown big out of Canada.  Either way, it ceased being Crean's issue the minute that the scholarship was filled.

[Marquette84]

Correct, clearly MU84 knows more than all the BEAST coaches that talk about how good the top 10 or so teams are in the league.

Are you saying that when I look at all the great talent that Buzz has brought in, that I don't realize that there are 10 league teams that are outrecruiting him? 

  The difference between finishing 3-4 in the BEAST or finishing 8-9 is so minimal,

The difference between the 9th and 3rd this year was 3 games--and only 2 games difference between 9th and 12th.

and ultimately the great thing about the BEAST is that it prepares you for the tourney. 

First, this is an interesting comment in light of the fact that only 2 out of 9 possible Big East teams made it past the first weekend.  And yes, I know that we had 11 teams in the tournament--but two would have been eliminated in head-to-head play before the Sweet 16.

BTW, what is your opinion on the tourney preparation afforded by, say, the Horizon? Or the Colonial?

I'd rather finish 10th and make the Sweet 16 than finish 3rd and exit in the first round. 

The problem with this logic is that you seldom get the chance to even participate if you finish 10th. 

[Marquette84]

Fair point - if only we didn't have 2 resident posters here who were hell bent on belittling the accomplishments of our CURRENT coaching staff and players.  Just hard to understand how 2 fans could be so consumed and complimentary about the past and so cynical and critical about the present.  

I guess I just don't understand how you can be so praiseworthy regarding Buzz's recruiting, then get mad if I suggest that perhaps we had too much talent to lose 15 games.

For example, here's one of many of your posts praising Buzz on the talent he recruited:

Agree 100% - Unless all of the recruiting services are way off on Vander, Reggie and Jamail..and assuming the recruiting services/rankings have overlooked DJ to an extent since he wasn't a big AAU circuit kid..along with the addition of Crowder...WOW!!  Think of the complexion of next years roster:

JUCO National Player of the Year - Crowder
3 First Team All American JUCOs - Buycks, DJO and I think Fulce?
2nd Team All Big East  - Jimmy Butler
Top 100 rated recruits:
Junior Cadougan, Erik Williams, Vander Blue, Jamail Jones, Reggie Smith (105, but close enough)


Thats 10 players with major accolades and you add DJ Newbill, state player of the year in his Division of basketball in PA...not sure MU has ever assembled this kind of talent??.Thanks BUZZ and staff!

I can't reconcile your prior quote with your current anger over my statement that we had too much talent to lose 15 games and finish in a tie for 9th.

In the context of the above quote from you . . . is it really so unreasonable to have the opinion that we had too much talent to wind up with 15 losses on the year?

[Marquette84]

There is one reason and one reason only that 84 puts so much stock in MU tying National Champion UCONN for 9th place in the Big East - anything to try to knock Buzz.

Fact#2: Despite having to cable last year's team together on the run (just as TC had to do at IU) MU tied national champion UCONN in the Big East standings.

So let me get this straight. . .

If *I* point out that we tied national champ UConn, its a knock on Buzz.
If *you* point out that we tied national champ UConn, its no knock on Buzz.

[GGGG]

Fair point - if only we didn't have 2 resident posters here who were hell bent on belittling the accomplishments of our CURRENT coaching staff and players. 

Honestly, who cares?  When posters such as yourself rush in to defend Buzz's honor at every turn, you simply perpetuate the problem.

[Skatastrophy]

As much as this thread is well off-topic and barely readable anymore, MUScoop wouldn't be as much fun without 84 and CBB. For all the arguments that they may end up in, it's because they have no problem arguing the minority point of view, and when you are patient with the debates, both can be fairly reasonable.

+1

[NersEllenson]

I guess I just don't understand how you can be so praiseworthy regarding Buzz's recruiting, then get mad if I suggest that perhaps we had too much talent to lose 15 games.

For example, here's one of many of your posts praising Buzz on the talent he recruited:
I can't reconcile your prior quote with your current anger over my statement that we had too much talent to lose 15 games and finish in a tie for 9th.

In the context of the above quote from you . . . is it really so unreasonable to have the opinion that we had too much talent to wind up with 15 losses on the year?

Well, the assembled talent last year did take us to our 2nd Sweet 16 in 16 years - so the talent Buzz has brought in, in just 3 short years has performed well.  Yet you want to keep harping on the negative of 15 losses....yet we had 9 league losses - the same as the eventual National Champion.  Marquette played more ranked teams than EVER in its history last year..and I b elieve more ranked teams than any school in the country last year - so guess what - you stand a greater chance of losing when you square off against Top 25 teams.  Genius point, I know.

As I've said about 3 times already in the this thread...I'd rather go to Sweet 16's than finish in the Top 6 of the Big East...only to gedt bounced in the first round of the NCAA tourney.

[Lennys Tap]

So let me get this straight. . .

If *I* point out that we tied national champ UConn, its a knock on Buzz.
If *you* point out that we tied national champ UConn, its no knock on Buzz.

You think tying UCONN constitutes a failure or underachievement. Therefore it is a criticism or "knock" on Buzz.

I don't see it as either a failure or an underachievement. Therefore it is not a criticism or "knock" on Buzz.

Hope you are able to grasp the concept as it is as elementary as it gets.

[4everwarriors]

Crean was, is, and will always be a complete, self-absorbed, self-promoting, egotistical pretty boy in my unbiased opinion.

[MerrittsMustache]

Crean was, is, and will always be a complete, self-absorbed, self-promoting, egotistical pretty boy in my unbiased opinion.

Agreed...but he also helped bring Marquette basketball back into the national spotlight. I'm not going to discredit what he accomplished at MU simply because I don't care for him as a person. Honestly, I think it worked out best for all parties that he is currently coaching elsewhere.

[Golden Avalanche]

Agreed...but he also helped bring Marquette basketball back into the national spotlight. I'm not going to discredit what he accomplished at MU simply because I don't care for him as a person. Honestly, I think it worked out best for all parties that he is currently coaching elsewhere.

+1.

Considering the deification that typically occurs with a smaller school fanbase like ours, it's no shock that certain guys develop a healthy ego.

That said, you cannot rationally deny the man his accomplishments. Sadly, it seems few can handle both outcomes.

[Marquette84]

Well, the assembled talent last year did take us to our 2nd Sweet 16 in 16 years - so the talent Buzz has brought in, in just 3 short years has performed well.  

Where do you get 16 years from?  2003 to 2011 is just 8 years.  We did have to go through the Sweet 16 en route to the Final Four.

yet we had 9 league losses - the same as the eventual National Champion.  

I think the difference is that most UConn fans--probably even Calhoun himself--agrees with the statement that UConn had too much talent to lose 9 games.  

The UConn fans I spoke with will readily admit their frustration.  None of them view it as a personal affront to their coach to suggest that the team didn't play to their talent level.   They're happy with the end result, but not happy with way it happened.

Marquette played more ranked teams than EVER in its history last year..and I b elieve more ranked teams than any school in the country last year - so guess what - you stand a greater chance of losing when you square off against Top 25 teams.  Genius point, I know.

This is a nice throwaway statement.  I'd like to dig one layer deeper:

Last year we finished tied with Louisville and ahead of Cincy, St. Johns and Notre Dame.  None of these teams were ranked in the final AP poll last year, and we had a combined 4-1 record against them.

This year, those same four teams became six ranked games on this year's schedule, and our record against them was just 1-5.

So as I see it, it wasn't our choice to simply schedule more ranked teams.  As I see it, our conference opponents improved themselves more than we did--going from unranked to ranked and passing us in the standings.

You can either argue (as I do) that we had enough talent, and for some reason we didn't get the job done on the court in the regular season.

Or you can argue that we had a talent deficiency vis-a-vis our league opposition.

Either way, the importance of finishing better in league standings than we did this year is that we cannot depend on the Big East getting 9 bids every year.  It has happened only once in the last six seasons.   I think we need to find a way to finish reliably no worse than the  top half.

[Marquette84]

You think tying UCONN constitutes a failure or underachievement. Therefore it is a criticism or "knock" on Buzz.

I don't see it as either a failure or an underachievement. Therefore it is not a criticism or "knock" on Buzz.

Hope you are able to grasp the concept as it is as elementary as it gets.

I didn't see it as a failure or underachievement that we beat Uconn.  
I see it as a failure or underachievement that we could beat UConn but couldn't beat Seton Hall.

BTW, I think UConn lost too many games given their talent as well.  And every UConn fan I've spoken with has agreed with me on that point.  They don't view it as a "knock" on their coach.  They have the same frustration.