When is enough enough?

[brewcity77]

When a Marquette student puts us in the opening block of a newscast for a physical altercation, that's bad publicity. It reflects badly on the University, and at least for me, it causes all kinds of questions to come my way as a Marquette grad. We are all associated with the negative press that comes out regarding Marquette, whether we like it or not.

Personally, I don't. So when it comes to incidents like this, I don't want to hear them. I want these young men to be educated well enough in regards to their public conduct so that this doesn't continue to happen. I accept that kids do stupid things, and I'm willing to tolerate stuff like this happening now and then, but these kids need to learn from those actions and not repeat them. If they can't do that, I'd rather see them sent packing than continue to force us to answer the same questions for 4 years because they can't figure out how to grow up in the process.

And if that costs us a Final Four, or a Sweet 16, or a tourney bid, so be it. I'd rather lose out on a couple successful basketball seasons than feel like I need to take a shower after every game.

[Pakuni]

When a Marquette student puts us in the opening block of a newscast for a physical altercation, that's bad publicity. It reflects badly on the University, and at least for me, it causes all kinds of questions to come my way as a Marquette grad. We are all associated with the negative press that comes out regarding Marquette, whether we like it or not.

How did you ever survive Chad Goetsch killing his mother? Now that was some bad publicity for Marquette.
Or that one of the most notorious serial killers ever was operating just off campus?
But you're wrong on one count. I am not in the least bit associated with any bad act committed by someone who happens to attend (or attended) my alma mater, basketball player or not. And certainly not when that bad act is a one-punch fistfight. If I'm going to feel shame over the acts of a fellow MU student/alum, it's going to be someone like Buddy Cianci or Joe McCarthy, not a silly basketball player who punched somebody for calling him by the wrong color.
Though I find it odd that you seem far more upset that you have to hear about these events than the fact they occurred.

And if that costs us a Final Four, or a Sweet 16, or a tourney bid, so be it. I'd rather lose out on a couple successful basketball seasons than feel like I need to take a shower after every game.

Oh, come on. For real?
This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say people are overreacting. Nobody is suggesting this is anything but poor behavior, but if a player getting into a minor fight is so appalling, why are you watching sports at all? And how have you remained a MU fan this long when, within the last 15 years or so, we've had players arrested for domestic battery, suspended by the NCAA for drug use, kicked off the team for drug use, banned from the NCAA, cited fror fighting, etc.

[MarquetteDano]

I don't think a simple fight is what people are concerned about.  There have been multiple incidents reported recently which clearly happened during the season and now have come to light.

First, regardless of the reality, the perception is there was a coverup during the season so no one had to miss any games.  Second, continued incidents has the perception of a program out of control.  That is the embarrassing part.  But that is perception, which I am less worried about.

The real issue is that these things do not happen in a vacuum.  If incident after incident, albeit minor ones, continue then it leads to atmosphere if no accountability.  And that is when something really bad happens.  And, of course you can then cue to the apologists saying that he/she is just one bad seed.  However, we cannot let the bad seeds grow into full fledge problems.  That would be on the administration, Buzz, and the athletic department.

I am not advocating dismissing anyone from the team but this kind of behavior had better end otherwise we will REALLY have something to talk about next time.

[VanderBabyBlue]

When a Marquette student puts us in the opening block of a newscast for a physical altercation, that's bad publicity. It reflects badly on the University, and at least for me, it causes all kinds of questions to come my way as a Marquette grad. We are all associated with the negative press that comes out regarding Marquette, whether we like it or not.

Personally, I don't. So when it comes to incidents like this, I don't want to hear them. I want these young men to be educated well enough in regards to their public conduct so that this doesn't continue to happen. I accept that kids do stupid things, and I'm willing to tolerate stuff like this happening now and then, but these kids need to learn from those actions and not repeat them. If they can't do that, I'd rather see them sent packing than continue to force us to answer the same questions for 4 years because they can't figure out how to grow up in the process.

And if that costs us a Final Four, or a Sweet 16, or a tourney bid, so be it. I'd rather lose out on a couple successful basketball seasons than feel like I need to take a shower after every game.

Wow, well let me just say I'm the exact opposite.  If VB could learn to put the ball through the hoop, he can bully as many average joes as he likes.  Presently, he's not a particularly strong player, and that makes his ego a little harder to stomach.  I definitely couldn't care less what our players do off the court (within reason!) if they're winning though.

[Daniel]

The reality of life is anyone can accuse anyone else of just about anything, and it happens often.  Sometimes the accusations are accurate and are held up and proven in court' sometimes not so much.  So, we have to see shat happens and if these allegations have any merit.

That said, student athletes in every university are more public figures. Those on scholarships, have even more on their plates.  Private universities especially, like Marquette, beg for money from alumi, boosters and more.  Fr Wild tirelessly worked to raise about $750 milllion in his tenure at MU.  Boosters and Blue and Gold Fund supports support athletics.  These athletes on scholarships are getting a big free ride.  Supporters make it possible for them to get scholarships.  So, getting a 100% scholarship means you are not only a student athlete, you are by default a representative of the University and all of those who support the University and the athletic department, which makes their scholarships possible.

That's why the consciousness level needs to be raised - high, very high.  They are not just another teenage student.  They have a higher role, whether they like that or not.  From this point forward, the importance of approriate off-the-court actions and behavior of MU players should be top-of-mind.  Get convicted and you are out.  Until then, let's hope that these allegations recentloy have no merit.  But the awareness needs to be raised, and what Marquette expects must be top-of-mind.  And these athletes should look out for each other in this mission, and police themselves.

[Dr. Blackheart]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6390253

KU's Robinson charged with a similar offense...although 20 and outside a nightclub.

[NersEllenson]

Daniel - While I agree that by virtue of being a basketbal player at MU, you are a "public figure," and will be more scrutinized - let's not act like it is some big award that a kid gets a scholarship to MU to play basketball.  These kids are blue chip commodities - universities fight and fight and spend and spend to recruit them to campus.  Why??  Because good players lead to wins, which leads to more sponsorhsip dollars, ticket sales, and national exposure for the university - far beyond the soft "cost" of a scholarship.

Last rant...the self righteousness of some of the MU community disgusts me as an alum.  These are 18-22 kids..they get in fights on occasion, they hit on girls who may not want the attention.  There are no cover ups going on - Buzz and MU cannot prevent a girl from going to the MPD at any time to file a sexual assault/harassment claim.  The fact that some here are judging our players as guilty before proven innocent is sad.  

[Daniel]

Daniel - While I agree that by virtue of being a basketbal player at MU, you are a "public figure," and will be more scrutinized - let's not act like it is some big award that a kid gets a scholarship to MU to play basketball.  These kids are blue chip commodities - universities fight and fight and spend and spend to recruit them to campus.  Why??  Because good players lead to wins, which leads to more sponsorhsip dollars, ticket sales, and desired national exposure for the university - far beyond the soft "cost" of a scholarship.

Last rant...the self righteousness of some of the MU community disgusts me as an alum.  These are 18-22 kids..they get in fights on occasion, they hit on girls who may not want the attention.  There are no cover ups going on - Buzz and MU cannot prevent a girl from going to the MPD at any time to file a sexual assault/harassment claim.  The fact that some here are judging our players as guilty before proven innocent is sad.  

I agree with both points.  All schools spend money to recruit, because it does help the university in enrollment, ticket sales, apparel etc.  Nonetheless, these kids will go to SOME school on someone elses dime, and the realtionship is a conctract.  Details should be spelled out.  That's all.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Last rant...the self righteousness of some of the MU community disgusts me as an alum.  These are 18-22 kids..they get in fights on occasion, they hit on girls who may not want the attention.  There are no cover ups going on - Buzz and MU cannot prevent a girl from going to the MPD at any time to file a sexual assault/harassment claim.  The fact that some here are judging our players as guilty before proven innocent is sad.  

You are right to a large extent except for one part..."on occasion"....some of these guys are doing it ALL THE TIME and that's the issue.  I don't think anyone is saying anyone is guilty of anything except a lack of common sense, perhaps more, but we'll let the legal system sort that out. 

Curious ners, if this stuff was happening to your favorite coach a few states away, you would be mum?

[Pakuni]

You are right to a large extent except for one part..."on occasion"....some of these guys are doing it ALL THE TIME and that's the issue.  I don't think anyone is saying anyone is guilty of anything except a lack of common sense, perhaps more, but we'll let the legal system sort that out. 

Curious ners, if this stuff was happening to your favorite coach a few states away, you would be mum?

Some of these guys are doing it ALL THE TIME?
Really?
No doubt your vast array of insider sources is informing you of this, but do you have any actual, you know, real support for such hyperbole?

[ATL MU Warrior]

You are right to a large extent except for one part..."on occasion"....some of these guys are doing it ALL THE TIME and that's the issue.  I don't think anyone is saying anyone is guilty of anything except a lack of common sense, perhaps more, but we'll let the legal system sort that out. 

Curious ners, if this stuff was happening to your favorite coach a few states away, you would be mum?

This kind of stuff is happening at your other alma mater with pretty high frequency.  Are you as upset about those incidents and how they are tarnishing that institution or do you reserve your judgements only for MU?

[Hards Alumni]

Some of these guys are doing it ALL THE TIME?
Really?
No doubt your vast array of insider sources is informing you of this, but do you have any actual, you know, real support for such hyperbole?

He is just an antagonist, and I am not sure he takes himself seriously most of the time.

[jtrash37]

How did you ever survive Chad Goetsch killing his mother? Now that was some bad publicity for Marquette.
Or that one of the most notorious serial killers ever was operating just off campus?
But you're wrong on one count. I am not in the least bit associated with any bad act committed by someone who happens to attend (or attended) my alma mater, basketball player or not. And certainly not when that bad act is a one-punch fistfight. If I'm going to feel shame over the acts of a fellow MU student/alum, it's going to be someone like Buddy Cianci or Joe McCarthy, not a silly basketball player who punched somebody for calling him by the wrong color.
Though I find it odd that you seem far more upset that you have to hear about these events than the fact they occurred.

Oh, come on. For real?
This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say people are overreacting. Nobody is suggesting this is anything but poor behavior, but if a player getting into a minor fight is so appalling, why are you watching sports at all? And how have you remained a MU fan this long when, within the last 15 years or so, we've had players arrested for domestic battery, suspended by the NCAA for drug use, kicked off the team for drug use, banned from the NCAA, cited fror fighting, etc.

Goetsch lived on McCormick 5 (I was in 332 that year, 1989).  I also lived about 4 blocks from Dahmer the next year at Maryland Court.  I seemed to survive unscathed.  Maybe I was mental already, but other than a few splinters of glass from the 'Lanche, I'm good. 

[NersEllenson]

You are right to a large extent except for one part..."on occasion"....some of these guys are doing it ALL THE TIME and that's the issue.  I don't think anyone is saying anyone is guilty of anything except a lack of common sense, perhaps more, but we'll let the legal system sort that out. 

Curious ners, if this stuff was happening to your favorite coach a few states away, you would be mum?

As has been pointed out - not sure we can say fights among the basketball team and MU students are "happening all the time."  However, I think it is safe to assume that 18-22 year old boys hit on girls all the time...and I'm sure the guys on MU's team, IU's team or any other are no different than the vast majority of college guys.  And honestly, I really would not care if IU had some of this going on - and for once I actually respect your overall tone on matters - as you do not seem to have jumped all over these allegations to paint Buzz in a bad light. 

[GGGG]

You are right to a large extent except for one part..."on occasion"....some of these guys are doing it ALL THE TIME and that's the issue. 

Who is doing this "ALL THE TIME??"  That is a very odd statement to make.

[GGGG]

That's why the consciousness level needs to be raised - high, very high.  They are not just another teenage student.  They have a higher role, whether they like that or not.  From this point forward, the importance of approriate off-the-court actions and behavior of MU players should be top-of-mind.  Get convicted and you are out.  Until then, let's hope that these allegations recentloy have no merit.  But the awareness needs to be raised, and what Marquette expects must be top-of-mind.  And these athletes should look out for each other in this mission, and police themselves.

While I generally agree with you, I am willing to give more leeway.  MU basketball players are roaming bands of thugs or anything.  They are college students who generally represent the university very well, but can get messed up in the stuff that college kids get messed up in.

And I am certainly not going to advocate a zero-tolerance approach like "convicted and you are out."  It certainly depends on the offense, but an offense like Vander's is one of those "teachable moments."  Simply kicking them off the team goes against the forgiveness and personal redemption that MU should be standing for.

[brewcity77]

While I generally agree with you, I am willing to give more leeway.  MU basketball players are roaming bands of thugs or anything.  They are college students who generally represent the university very well, but can get messed up in the stuff that college kids get messed up in.

And I am certainly not going to advocate a zero-tolerance approach like "convicted and you are out."  It certainly depends on the offense, but an offense like Vander's is one of those "teachable moments."  Simply kicking them off the team goes against the forgiveness and personal redemption that MU should be standing for.

I agree...assuming you meant "aren't" roaming bands of thugs

I'm not saying zero tolerance. I love how Pakuni only picks out the critical of what I say and simply ignores the paragraph where I say that I accept this stuff happening but don't want it to become a continuing occurrence. If this is it, or if there's some fallout from other incidents this year, that's fine. I'm willing to put that behind me. But if we are asking the same questions next summer about three more pending cases, and if there's a shadow of fights, sexual assault allegations, and general misbehavior going into Vander's (or any player's) junior year, then no, that's not the type of individual I want representing the University.

It's not like I freak out because of every minute occurrence. I accept that stuff happens, and I'm willing to look past it. But there should be a limit to the amount of stuff. All I'm saying is that it should really end pretty darn soon, because if this continues for three years, and becomes the standard set for new players to continue so that every summer involves 3-4 trials with Marquette basketball players as defendants, then our team will have a reputation as a roaming band of thugs. I'd like to think as a Jesuit University, we hold our players to a higher standard than that.

Again, no need to kick anyone off now. I hope proper discipline has been taken, and I trust that it has been. I just don't want to see these occurrences become a trend.

[tower912]

Maybe Buzz should quit recruiting these traditional 4 year students and stick to the JUCO switchables.   

[Clam Crowder]

There are 4 other people accused of sexual assault...lets not go saying Buzz should stick to the JUCOS yet.

[Goose]

In today's technology era behavior has to be better than ever. I was at MU in early 80's and plenty of stupid things were done, but most were never reported. Guys, especially athletes, need to learn to think twice before doing anything.

[Hoopaloop]

There are 4 other people accused of sexual assault...lets not go saying Buzz should stick to the JUCOS yet.

Especially when 3 of the 4 are not four year players at MU, and two of the four are JUCOS. 

[VanderBabyBlue]

Especially when 3 of the 4 are not four year players at MU, and two of the four are JUCOS. 

You speak very matter-of-factly.  I have not seen a consistent list of the "rumored" 4 players.

[Hoopaloop]

You speak very matter-of-factly.  I have not seen a consistent list of the "rumored" 4 players.

Then you are not asking the right people

[RawdogDX]

I haven't read or responded to any of the threads you mentioned, because they were all clearly labled.  Yours was not. 

Don't be part of the problem. 

[warriormom]

Haven't we learned anything from the Duke Lacrosse team and proclaiming guilt based upon very little information?
I find it laughable that anyone thinks behavior was any different under Crean than under Buzz.   My sons have gone to MU now from 2004 to present.  They all have stories of questionable behavior by players.
Why don't we wait and see who is responsible and what the facts are before we become judges.
Happening ALL THE TIME????
Wow