When is enough enough?

[Clam Crowder]

I am not saying that the sexual assault allegations will come to fruition, I am not saying that the Vander Blue case will lead to anything of substance, but I will say that the behavior of the players lately has been awful. All of this has been made public so it is easy to point the finger and say they have been acting inappropriately, but at the same time they are the most recognized people on campus and need to start behaving a bit better. If this keeps up I think we should start to point fingers at those that are supposed to watch over these kids. It has been frustrating to see all of this pop up so suddenly.

[Pakuni]

I am not saying that the sexual assault allegations will come to fruition, I am not saying that the Vander Blue case will lead to anything of substance, but I will say that the behavior of the players lately has been awful. All of this has been made public so it is easy to point the finger and say they have been acting inappropriately, but at the same time they are the most recognized people on campus and need to start behaving a bit better behaved. If this keeps up I think we should start to point fingers at those that are supposed to watch over these kids. It has been frustrating to see all of this pop up so suddenly.

So, while you don't know if anybody is guilty of anything, you do know that their behavior is awful. Got it.

1. While the initial sex assault claim is troubling, we'll have to wait to see where that goes. I think we're all hoping it was an act of stupid behavior, not criminal behavior. That seems to be where the university has come down on it and, unless you believe there's been some sort of conspiracy to hide the truth, there's no reason to doubt them at this point.

2. We don't even know that the second claim involves a baskeball player. Jumping to conclusions, perhaps?

3. Vander Blue getting into a fight is dumb. It's also not atypical for young men of that age, and he's hardly the first MU hoops player - nor will he be the last - to be involved in a scrap with another student. Why his has been more publicized than some others, I don't know. But I'm not terribly troubled by it.

[tower912]

This isn't something new.   From the Rivers-Marotta love triangle, to Herb (appropriately named) Harrison, to Pops Sims, to Tom Copa and an extremely unfortunate accident with a jeep and kids skiing behind the jeep, to players flunking out, to kids eating themselves out of basketball, to kids who got into school and attacked a coach, or kids who were admitted and then never played a game due to grades, or kids who were almost admitted but were named in a pot possesion case and ended up at Duquesne, to a kid who did something so bad it not only cost him his scholarship but any future NCAA eligibility, to Al fighting a player.......Yeah.      I am not happy when these things pop up either.    This isn't the first time, it won't be the last.    18-22 year old kids do stupid stuff.    I did.   You did.   Vander did.    I wish it weren't so.    But it is.    I hope that Buzz has beat into these guys head that they are public figures and as such are more visible, have a target on their backs, and need to be more careful.  

[StillWarriors]

So, while you don't know if anybody is guilty of anything, you do know that their behavior is awful. Got it.

1. While the initial sex assault claim is troubling, we'll have to wait to see where that goes. I think we're all hoping it was an act of stupid behavior, not criminal behavior. That seems to be where the university has come down on it and, unless you believe there's been some sort of conspiracy to hide the truth, there's no reason to doubt them at this point.

2. We don't even know that the second claim involves a basketball player. Jumping to conclusions, perhaps?

3. Vander Blue getting into a fight is dumb. It's also not atypical for young men of that age, and he's hardly the first MU hoops player - nor will he be the last - to be involved in a scrap with another student. Why his has been more publicized than some others, I don't know. But I'm not terribly troubled by it.

While Jhags' conclusion that their behavior of the players "lately has been awful" might be a bit overstated unless he knows more about the specifics than have been reported thus far, it is fair to say that there is enough smoke here to at a minimum raise some red flags. Coupled with comments to me from current students I know (with no axe to grind) that the players have pretty bad reputations on campus in general, it would appear that these issues cannot simply be ignored by saying the student disciplinary procedures were followed. Buzz and the team have garnered quite a bit of press for their social conscience and the emphasis on their development as people, not just players. Along with that, it is not surprising that there will be scrutiny and criticism when conduct like what has been alleged recently comes to light. I agree that the student-athletes involved should not be convicted prematurely in the court of public opinion. However, even if criminal charges are not brought, I sure hope Buzz and the team get the message here, so as Buzz says, "they don't have to pass the test again."

From a basketball standpoint, it is hard not to wonder how much of a distraction all these allegations were for the players involved when all this was going on, even though they weren't public to the extent they are now. It had to be stressful, and I don't think it is a reach to say it had to be somewhat of a distraction for the individuals involved, and the team overall. Add to that any direct impact from a basketball standpoint in terms of team punishment or playing time/rotations being affected, and it makes me wonder to what extent the record was affected. Obviously we'll never know, and if the allegations are legit there are far bigger issues to be concerned with, but I do have to wonder. Hopefully lessons are learned, the allegations are unfounded and we move in a positive direction from here. As a fan who takes pride in what I like to believe MU hoops represents, I do find all the recent news disconcerting and embarrassing.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Both of you make good points.


If this was happening to one of our rivals, I doubt we would have the "boys will be boys" attitude. 


My biggest concern is another "incident" crops up in the next few months and then perception arguments win out over reality arguments.  These guys have got to understand that they are public figures, whether they like it or not.  They may have done very little wrong, but it doesn't look good.  One starts stacking these incidents and the next headline becomes "more issues with Marquette athletics" or "another incident involving Marquette athletics".

Vander may have done something that many other "normal" students, particularly guys, have done....he has to understand he IS NOT A NORMAL STUDENT.  He is a public figure and they have to act differently. 

[Clam Crowder]

So, while you don't know if anybody is guilty of anything, you do know that their behavior is awful. Got it.

1. While the initial sex assault claim is troubling, we'll have to wait to see where that goes. I think we're all hoping it was an act of stupid behavior, not criminal behavior. That seems to be where the university has come down on it and, unless you believe there's been some sort of conspiracy to hide the truth, there's no reason to doubt them at this point.

2. We don't even know that the second claim involves a baskeball player. Jumping to conclusions, perhaps?

3. Vander Blue getting into a fight is dumb. It's also not atypical for young men of that age, and he's hardly the first MU hoops player - nor will he be the last - to be involved in a scrap with another student. Why his has been more publicized than some others, I don't know. But I'm not terribly troubled by it.

If their behavior was completely innocent and not awful 2 allegations of sexual assault do not exist right now. Second off, I think we all know that it was a basketball player in the other accusation. IMO it may not even say student athlete with some of our other sports. Basketball is Marquette, people don't care about soccer, or volleyball here. It is what it is....Vander's case is just a sign of immaturity, and the players maybe having the world owes me mentality...I love the players for what they do on the court, but I want to be proud of them for other things as well...I wasn't looking for an argument just voicing my disappointments

[tower912]

I don't think anyone is saying they aren't disappointed.    And Chico and I agree that these kids need to recognize they are public figures and as such are held to a different standard.     This does trouble me.   My point is that it isn't new, either to college athletes in the macro sense or MU hoopsters in the micro sense.     Every time it happens I find it troubling.    I, too, want these kids to represent MU in the right way.   It doesn't always happen.    Every few years, somebody does something stupid.    And it has been going on a long time.   

[Pakuni]

If their behavior was completely innocent and not awful 2 allegations of sexual assault do not exist right now.

So wait ... let me understand. You're saying that being accused makes one guilty of something awful and that the second allegation must involve a basketball player because they're the only student-athletes at Marquette?
Ummm ... OK. Can't argue with that logic.

I wasn't looking for an argument just voicing my disappointments

I'm not sure there's anyone around here not disappointed, at least not in regards to the sex assault claims, but it's a huge leap between being disappointed and stating someone did something awful.
And, just to be clear, I don't consider getting into a minor fistfight something awful. Stupid, immature, unwise ... absolutely. But not awful.

[Clam Crowder]

So you are of the opinion that all 4 of the accused are completely innocent? I think it's obvious something inappropriate occurred. Lets use that word instead of awful...better?

[Pakuni]

So you are of the opinion that all 4 of the accused are completely innocent? I think it's obvious something inappropriate occurred. Lets use that word instead of awful...better?

Yes, inappropriate is much better.
Words have meanings, and there's a pretty wide gulf between inappropriate and awful.

Innocent of what? Bad behavior? No, I think that's already been settled.
Criminal behavior? Remains to be seen, but the university has decided they are innocent of criminal behavior and what's been presented to the Milwaukee DA so far clearly doesn't make the case that a crime was committed.

[martyconlonontherun]

Yeah, I find it funny how we always have a holier than thou attitude. Let's worry about our own program. Not saying we are a horrible program that needs to be dismantled, but rather pointing out we appear ignorant when we make comments condemning other programs.

[NCAARules]

Not to add more fuel to the fire

Disclaimers like that usually have exactly the opposite effect.

If you don't want to add fuel to the fire, don't post it.

[Bocephys]

Disclaimers like that usually have exactly the opposite effect.

If you don't want to add fuel to the fire, don't post it.

But that'd be boring.

[MarquetteDano]

From a basketball standpoint, it is hard not to wonder how much of a distraction all these allegations were for the players involved when all this was going on, even though they weren't public to the extent they are now. It had to be stressful, and I don't think it is a reach to say it had to be somewhat of a distraction for the individuals involved, and the team overall. Add to that any direct impact from a basketball standpoint in terms of team punishment or playing time/rotations being affected, and it makes me wonder to what extent the record was affected. Obviously we'll never know, and if the allegations are legit there are far bigger issues to be concerned with, but I do have to wonder. Hopefully lessons are learned, the allegations are unfounded and we move in a positive direction from here. As a fan who takes pride in what I like to believe MU hoops represents, I do find all the recent news disconcerting and embarrassing.

Agree with StillWarriors here.  This is very disconcerting and embarrassing.  I am getting concerned over Buzz's control of the players off the court a little now.  This, with the other incident, is not good at all.  Some coaches are viewed as tough on the court and lax off the court.  I hope Buzz does not fit into that category.  Because that's when you end up with a REALLY bad incident.

[brewcity77]

Both of you make good points.

If this was happening to one of our rivals, I doubt we would have the "boys will be boys" attitude. 

My biggest concern is another "incident" crops up in the next few months and then perception arguments win out over reality arguments.  These guys have got to understand that they are public figures, whether they like it or not.  They may have done very little wrong, but it doesn't look good.  One starts stacking these incidents and the next headline becomes "more issues with Marquette athletics" or "another incident involving Marquette athletics".

Vander may have done something that many other "normal" students, particularly guys, have done....he has to understand he IS NOT A NORMAL STUDENT.  He is a public figure and they have to act differently.

+1

And +1 to jhags in here. I don't think any of us should have to look the other way. I don't think we should be going with the "boys will be boys" argument. And I don't think we should be giving them a pass because they haven't been found guilty yet.

Not guilty is great and all, but it doesn't excuse them from allowing themselves to be involved in a situation they shouldn't have been part of in the first place. Vander shouldn't be getting into fights outside Qdoba, Marquette basketball players shouldn't be involved in sexual harassment of a female student (which is what DPS determined that to be, and it's common knowledge that it was the basketball program, even if names haven't been released), and as the University's most public representatives, these young men need to hold themselves to a higher standard.

Right now, these situations are at a minimum "disappointing". If they continue, then I think the University should start suspending or expelling. I don't care who the players are. I don't care if it's the entire projected starting five. I don't care if we ship out multiple top 100 recruits. These young men represent us all in the most visible way for a Marquette student to possibly represent us during their college tenure. They owe it to everyone associated with the University to do so in a respectful manner, and allowing themselves to be involved in situations like these is a blatant disregard for that respect.

I hope that nothing serious comes of these situations. I hope that the players learn from them and we don't hear them happen again. And I truly hope the best for all of these young men in their futures. But if they can't be better judges of where they should and shouldn't be, and when they should know well enough to simply walk away, then I'd rather they not represent the University I am proud to call my alma mater.

[Pakuni]

I hope that nothing serious comes of these situations. I hope that the players learn from them and we don't hear them happen again. And I truly hope the best for all of these young men in their futures. But if they can't be better judges of where they should and shouldn't be, and when they should know well enough to simply walk away, then I'd rather they not represent the University I am proud to call my alma mater.

Brew, I always appreciate and respect your posts, but I think you and others are making a mountain of a molehill over the Blue situation.
Yes, he showed poor judgment and should have walked away from the situation. No, his actions don't reflect well on the program. Yes, some discipline should be - and apprarently was - imposed.
But you don't want him to "represent the University" because he got into a minor dustup with a fellow student?  Really? Did you call for Dominic James's dismissal when he was cited for assault? Or Damon Key when he was accused of hitting a woman? Or Ron Curry when he knocked a fellow student out cold in a Wells Street fight?
Nobody is suggesting this is good or acceptable behavior, nor that it should go unpunished. But I just don't understand the handwringing and overblown consternation over Blue's situation, when he's gone where plenty of others have gone before.

The sex assault claims are far more troubling. If proven true, I don't want anyone involved anywhere near the MU campus again, much less in a Marquette uniform.

Edit: I don't mean to imply that there are a great deal of people making too much of the Blue situation. Actually, it seems most people are taking it for what it is ... a couple of teenagers/young men acting stupidly.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Pakuni, the Blue incident is a minor situation, on that we can all agree.  However, it all comes with the bundling.

You throw the Blue thing in on top of the Sexual Assault issue involving 4 basketball players, one of which may also be Blue (I'm not saying it is, but I'm just saying it may also involve him) and suddenly eyebrows begin to perk up with "What the F is going on".

Incidents in isolation are not that big an issue, but when the become stackable or bundled in the same time periods, that starts to raise concerns.  Another such incident would be terribly bad PR right now.  Hopefully there is no other shoe that will be dropping out of nowhere for a long time.

[MUfan12]

I'll preface my comments by saying this- I expect nothing to come of the assault claims. Not much to either case.

But between that, and Vander's case one thing is clear- These guys need a wakeup call. It's beyond time to start using better judgment. They have to begin to consider ramifications, and if whatever they're doing is worth those potential ramifications. That means ignoring drunks at bar time. That means being smart when the jersey chasers start to line up at Humphrey.

I know they're young, and we all screwed up. But we weren't high major basketball players. They have to know better than to put themselves in these situations.

[shoothoops]

The Internet, Twitter, Facebook, etc...have all changed the amount of information available and the speed in which that information is consumed.

[96warrior]

Incidents in isolation are not that big an issue, but when the become stackable or bundled in the same time periods, that starts to raise concerns.  Another such incident would be terribly bad PR right now.  Hopefully there is no other shoe that will be dropping out of nowhere for a long time.

The timing of all of these things sucks. Things that happened in October are just coming to fruition now and all at once. It does feel like a lot going on all at once, which compounds the overall feeling of, well, yuckiness.

I'd like to think that Vander today is a different guy than he was in October. In October, the season hadn't started yet and he was coming in on a huge wave of exhultation and expectation. I'd venture a guess any 18 year old kid with that sort of public positive touting would have an attitude. I'd also venture a guess he, like most freshman, are way different at the end of their first year of college than they were coming in. Time will tell. Hopefully lessons are learned from all of this.

[brewcity77]

But you don't want him to "represent the University" because he got into a minor dustup with a fellow student?  Really? Did you call for Dominic James's dismissal when he was cited for assault? Or Damon Key when he was accused of hitting a woman? Or Ron Curry when he knocked a fellow student out cold in a Wells Street fight?

I'm not saying dismiss him now. But this is potentially three incidents in his first year at Marquette. He needs to learn from what has transpired, and needs to move past it. If we continue to hear these types of stories next year, then no, I don't want him to represent the University. If he can learn and not repeat such indiscretions, then I am happy for him to continue as one of Marquette's most visible representatives.

I'm not saying cut the cord now, but I do think there should be an understanding that if he can't improve his behavior, he'll be looking for another school to provide his scholarship.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'll preface my comments by saying this- I expect nothing to come of the assault claims. Not much to either case.

But between that, and Vander's case one thing is clear- These guys need a wakeup call. It's beyond time to start using better judgment. They have to begin to consider ramifications, and if whatever they're doing is worth those potential ramifications. That means ignoring drunks at bar time. That means being smart when the jersey chasers start to line up at Humphrey.

I know they're young, and we all screwed up. But we weren't high major basketball players. They have to know better than to put themselves in these situations.

I'd love to know what education they are going through on this?  We went overboard with the student athletes before school started (in August) and again at the semester to remind them who they are, who they represent, how they are celebs whether they like it or not

This is also why I think it's rather silly to have our media guides and posters with our guys looking less than angelic.  I know I'll take crap for that from posters here, but it's PR and Marketing 101.  No way I would have let that fly when I was there.  Just stupid.  The reason is simple, kids do stupid things and then those posters and media guides get a life of their own and become a symbolic representation of the team. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm not saying dismiss him now. But this is potentially three incidents in his first year at Marquette. He needs to learn from what has transpired, and needs to move past it. If we continue to hear these types of stories next year, then no, I don't want him to represent the University. If he can learn and not repeat such indiscretions, then I am happy for him to continue as one of Marquette's most visible representatives.

I'm not saying cut the cord now, but I do think there should be an understanding that if he can't improve his behavior, he'll be looking for another school to provide his scholarship.

I'm very much at the edge....I'm sure a few folks here will scream.  I've heard enough the last 2 years behind the scenes and publicly that I don't want to hear about this guy doing ANYTHING wrong moving forward, and that includes farting in church. 

There has got to be some discipline reinstated.  Crean was probably overboard, the players often hated how much he controlled their lives.  Somewhere there is a happy medium, either that or we simply need to be recruiting guys that get the big picture. 

[BallBoy]

But this is potentially three incidents in his first year at Marquette.

There could also be potentially one incident.  You are assuming he is involved with the two sex assaults. 

The assault and battery incident could be nothing more than two people fighting.  Based on the comments from Jerry it sounds like there were two people who agreed to fight.  That means no assault can occur.  I see this as being no worse then incidents during other coaches' reigns such as a player hurting himself falling down stairs after getting so drunk at a house party(I believe this happened right before a NCAA game) or getting wasted at Murph's that other teammates need to care them out, or almost throwing punches with a girl after she beat you at a game of Hot Shot. 

[jtrash37]

But you don't want him to "represent the University" because he got into a minor dustup with a fellow student?  Really? Did you call for Dominic James's dismissal when he was cited for assault? Or Damon Key when he was accused of hitting a woman He did...with a typewriter/word processor...UP a flight of stairs? Or Ron Curry when he knocked a fellow student out cold in a Wells Street fight? THAT FIGHT (If you can call it that) was great!

I also watched Charles Brakes karate kick some guys nose in outside of the Ardmore (while chatting with Tony Smith and Jimmy Mac over air hockey about Tony vs. Jordan that summer in the NBA finals).

Watched Mark Harris attempt to take on 1/2 of Renee Row.

College students + alcohol = volatility. 

It's not rocket science.  That being said, this isn't something I want to hear on the news each night.  It's actually getting a tad bit embarrassing (in spite of the lack of "conviction(s)").  I also feel there should have been some mention of discipline or a player suspension throughout the season in spite of no convictions.  The fact that these incidents happened, went to the disciplinary committee of Marquette, and nothing was done isn't something I'm content with.  As an average joe graduate of MU (1994), I know my opinion is beyond low on the worry meter, but still....the players need to get some semblance of their being a potential target from John Q. Public.  Blue's citation is a perfect example.  For instance...If this was me and some other student in the street, outside Hegarty's on a Thursday, at midnight, and I got my bell rung by his friend from behind...nobody would call the cops (let alone Public Saftey!).  I'm just sayin.