Student Athlete Graduation Rates

[Ari Gold]

http://www.tidesport.org/Grad%20Rates/2011_Mens_Bball_FINAL.pdf

Its a recent posting of the graduation rates amongst white and black basketball players of teams that made the tournament

Marquette graduation rates for basketball players: Overall 92% graduation rate 83% graduation rate amongst black athletes and 100% for white athletes (Go Rob go!)

Marquette tied for 10th in graduation rate. I'm fairly impressed by that. but that might go with an asterisk because it doesn't seem to weigh 1 white athlete vs multiple black athletes.

Only Nova and ND have better graduation rates than us among Big East teams that made the tournament

[cheebs09]

The stats go from the 05-06 season through the 08-09 season (at least that's what I gathered from a quick skim through), so Rob isn't a factor and the white players involve more than just one person. Great to see that we are high up though. Maybe it isn't the right place for this, but who didn't graduate?

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Inquiring minds want to Know-Who didn't graduate?

[Pakuni]

Can anyone make sense of this?
"NCAA statistics were used in the study. The Institute reviewed the six-year graduation rates of each school's freshman class that enrolled in 2003-04, and it then calculated a four-class average (freshmen classes of 2000-01, 2001-02, 2002-03 and 2003-04). The APR data in this study does not include data from the 2009-10 academic performances of the teams, but instead uses the four-year data from the 2005-06, 2006-07, 2007-08, and 2008-09 academic years."

So, are the rates in the study the average of the grad rate since Wade's class?
Or the average since the Three Amigos class? Or something else?

[Goose]

Before I get bashed for saying this, I hope everyone reads my post and digests my thoughts. I love this fact and MU should be proud of it. But, are we putting too high of expectations on the players and limiting the pool of recruits to chose from? I do not want us being Tark's Vegas or Huggin's Cincy by any stretch. However, as a fan, I would be happier with more wins and lower graduation rate.

I realize that the school has high standards and we want to honor that. Often I hear on here on why MU will never be the MU of the Al era because times have changed and that is true. This also holds true for student athletes. Al set a high standard and did it with sometimes marginal students. In today's college sports landscape we are the exception to the rule. If we become the rule do we have better chance to be elite?

I would say every coach since Hank, with possible exception of Dukiet, has felt handcuffed in who they can get into school. Again, we have provided our coaches with all the bells and whistles possible, plus hefty paycheck. Is is time to let the coach compete with it's peers on level playing field?

[🏀]

Before I get bashed for saying this, I hope everyone reads my post and digests my thoughts. I love this fact and MU should be proud of it. But, are we putting too high of expectations on the players and limiting the pool of recruits to chose from? I do not want us being Tark's Vegas or Huggin's Cincy by any stretch. However, as a fan, I would be happier with more wins and lower graduation rate.

I realize that the school has high standards and we want to honor that. Often I hear on here on why MU will never be the MU of the Al era because times have changed and that is true. This also holds true for student athletes. Al set a high standard and did it with sometimes marginal students. In today's college sports landscape we are the exception to the rule. If we become the rule do we have better chance to be elite?

I would say every coach since Hank, with possible exception of Dukiet, has felt handcuffed in who they can get into school. Again, we have provided our coaches with all the bells and whistles possible, plus hefty paycheck. Is is time to let the coach compete with it's peers on level playing field?

Do we really have this issue? I think Marquette should be taking a look at their recruits academics, not only to see their grades, but I believe academic achievement is directly related to character.

I think Buzz/Crean has and will continue to marginal at best students when it comes to academics. I think the graduation rates says more about the culture and support the students receive when arriving to campus.

[Goose]

PTM---Fair point/argument. Only question I have is MU really that good at predicting a 19 year old's character? I have a son that if a ball recruit would have no had chance of getting scholarship at MU because of grades (actually was not accepted to MU when he applied) that is graduating from UWMilwaukee in four years with Accounting degree. While his character was excellent I could not have predicted his college years to be so productive.

All that said, I find it hard to believe MU is that much better than other school's in this area. As a rule we take very few chances and I think that limits us. I would love to see us roll the dice a little more than we do. You never with a kid until he gets to school.

[🏀]

PTM---Fair point/argument. Only question I have is MU really that good at predicting a 19 year old's character? I have a son that if a ball recruit would have no had chance of getting scholarship at MU because of grades (actually was not accepted to MU when he applied) that is graduating from UWMilwaukee in four years with Accounting degree. While his character was excellent I could not have predicted his college years to be so productive.

All that said, I find it hard to believe MU is that much better than other school's in this area. As a rule we take very few chances and I think that limits us. I would love to see us roll the dice a little more than we do. You never with a kid until he gets to school.

That's a good point as well, you just never know. However, it is the responsibility of the AD to hedge their bets towards the success rates.

[hdog1017]

Do you ever notice the end of the bench at North Carolina?  They are all short white guys who can barely play the game of basketball.  The cynic in me asks the question, do you think UNC signs these guys to up their graduation percentage?  Outside of them, UNC usually has players (most years) that leave early to go play in the Association.  That could be one way to balance it out. 

[Pakuni]

All that said, I find it hard to believe MU is that much better than other school's in this area. As a rule we take very few chances and I think that limits us. I would love to see us roll the dice a little more than we do. You never with a kid until he gets to school.

MU has rolled the dice, probably more than most of us know, with mixed results.
Here's a few "rolls of the dice" I'm aware of, though no doubt there have been more.
Dwyane Wade = good.
James Matthew = bad.
Gerald Posey = bad.
Alton Mason = bad.
Trend Blackledge = OK, but with some bumps in the road.

[Goose]

Pakuni--I agree MU has rolled the dice some, but if probably not enough to please our HC's. PTM is correct that character is a big thing and helps overcome lower grades. All I really am saying is either MU is one of three or four best academic schools for ballers or we are limited the pool of players we recruit. These numbers do not happen by luck. In addition, in 2011 every school has a good/great support system to help these guys.

[MerrittsMustache]

Do you ever notice the end of the bench at North Carolina?  They are all short white guys who can barely play the game of basketball.  The cynic in me asks the question, do you think UNC signs these guys to up their graduation percentage?  Outside of them, UNC usually has players (most years) that leave early to go play in the Association.  That could be one way to balance it out. 

Those players a typically walk-ons. Does anyone know if walk-ons are factored into these numbers or is this only for scholarship athletes?

[MUfan12]

Maybe it isn't the right place for this, but who didn't graduate?

Since it's in the media guide I think it's alright here. Lazar didn't finish. This years guide only lists Mo and Cubi.

[Skitch]

Do you ever notice the end of the bench at North Carolina?  They are all short white guys who can barely play the game of basketball.  The cynic in me asks the question, do you think UNC signs these guys to up their graduation percentage?  Outside of them, UNC usually has players (most years) that leave early to go play in the Association.  That could be one way to balance it out. 

I could be wrong, but I think that so long as a player who leaves for the draft is on pace for graduation they don't count for or against the graduation numbers. 

Maybe someone who knows for sure can tell me.

[HouWarrior]

Before I get bashed for saying this, I hope everyone reads my post and digests my thoughts. I love this fact and MU should be proud of it. But, are we putting too high of expectations on the players and limiting the pool of recruits to chose from? I do not want us being Tark's Vegas or Huggin's Cincy by any stretch. However, as a fan, I would be happier with more wins and lower graduation rate.

I realize that the school has high standards and we want to honor that. Often I hear on here on why MU will never be the MU of the Al era because times have changed and that is true. This also holds true for student athletes. Al set a high standard and did it with sometimes marginal students. In today's college sports landscape we are the exception to the rule. If we become the rule do we have better chance to be elite?

I would say every coach since Hank, with possible exception of Dukiet, has felt handcuffed in who they can get into school. Again, we have provided our coaches with all the bells and whistles possible, plus hefty paycheck. Is is time to let the coach compete with it's peers on level playing field?

This would only apply if you show of an instance where a possible MU recruit met NCAA clearinghouse minimums (which are required to be eligible for any div 1 program), and yet MU would not admit him--due to MUs  own, higher requirements--is there such an example to prove your assumption? If not, then you have a red herring. Admittance standard is not equivalent to graduation rates.

[kansaswarrior]

I could be wrong, but I think that so long as a player who leaves for the draft is on pace for graduation they don't count for or against the graduation numbers. 

Maybe someone who knows for sure can tell me.

It depends. The federal graduation rate doesn't count a student athlete if they leave school before completing the required credits and receiving their diploma , hence why many coaches like Huggins vehemently argue against it because of athletes who leave early for the pros. I know that if an athlete dies while at school it doesn't count against your federal rate but besides that I'm not entirely sure...

Now the APR/GSR is a little different. If the student who leaves the university is academically eligible and on track to graduate then that student won't count against the APR/GSR rate (not entirely sure as to which one is which but I could find out if you'd like) if he/she decides to leave early. So it takes into account those students that leave early and doesn't penalize the university for it.

[Goose]

HouWarrior---I realize acceptance rates and graduation rates are not related. I believe the basketball program has higher graduation rate than the general number of students accepted. In the general school population we have higher % of transfer, dropouts and kicked outs than basketball team.

Honestly I really cannot cite an example of a player that we DID NOT recruit because of his grades. The maority of the kids we recruit we know can get in. I am more concerned about the kids that are sharpie'd off the list. I do apologize for not having that list.

[NCAARules]

Those players a typically walk-ons. Does anyone know if walk-ons are factored into these numbers or is this only for scholarship athletes?

Walkons do not factor into the federal graduation rate. The federal rate only accounts for first-year student athletes who receive athletic financial aid (scholarship) in their first year. (so incoming transfers do not help this rate when they graduate)

I believe walk-ons DO factor into the NCAA ASR/GSR, but do not know that for fact.

KansasWarrior - other exclusions include military service or church mission.

[6746jonesr]

Marquette, like every University, accepts students athletes who would not ordinally get accepted to MU based on their academic record.  The question posed earlier, tho, is how low will they go.  Requirements were reduced for Tom Crean, which is why we took a chance with Wade.  We have accepted players( I will not mention the names) who showed up on campus who read at a 3rd grade level, and the program worked to get them a transfer to a junior college that would be better able to make it at MU.  The key to successful graduation rates at a University centers on two issues: do you care whether the players will be able to graduate if they do not have the ability to play pro ball or are you going to use them solely for their basketball ability and say good luck was their elibility is exhausted;  the other factor is the academic support staff and the commitment of the coaching staff to insure that the athletes attend class and do the work.  We have a great academic support staff at Marquette, so the players who may be academically disadvantaged can get the extra help that might be needed.  And, if you were here during the Crean days, he had assistant coaches checking on every players classes to make sure that they were in attendance.  In addition, Crean moved to charter flights, so student althletes would miss less class time.  Buzz does not hae his assistants checking the classes, but they do have other spotters in place.  His approach seems much more on the line that the athletes must be responsible for doing what needs to be done, and going to class and turning work in on time is key. 

Many schools have adopted an NCAA program (Madison and Marquette do it), which is designed to assis student athletes in their transition to college, and much of it focuses on academics, but their is a lot of other socialization and civic responsibility stuff that is included. 
However, I would never want Marquette to become a basketball mill.  I am proud of our gradution rate, and the factthat Marquette, while taking some academic risks and giving these kids a chance, does place an emphasis on  recruiting good kids who can play basketball and want to get an education.  These are the kids that should make us all proud to be MU fans.  While I would love for s to win champioships, I would not trade a champioship for a group of student athletes that don't have any right to be in a classroom.  The NCAA makes enough of a mockery of amatuerism as it is.

[Goose]

6746---Great post and thanks for the insight. I do respect the efforts, especially established by TC, to make the guys do well. I was totally unaware of the helping guys that were accepted that we placed in JUCO's. Realize you will not mention names and respect that. Again, you are really, really scooping me here.

Your post is awesome because it states your, and sounds like the school's stance on importance of basketball. School first and basketball second. I realize I am a broken record but why do we need The Al, BC and $2 mil + plus coach if school comes first. I doubt if Northwestern coach makes Buzz or money, nor to do they spend $5 mil + on supporting team. I am really confused on the thought process. How about we become Northwestern and spend accordingly.

[HouWarrior]

I realize I am a broken record but why do we need The Al, BC and $2 mil + plus coach if school comes first. I doubt if Northwestern coach makes Buzz or money, nor to do they spend $5 mil + on supporting team. I am really confused on the thought process. How about we become Northwestern and spend accordingly.

wow-- lets become Northwestern--this is your best idea/suggestion, to date.
If you're attempting sarcasm, in the above-- please use teal...if not...well ...I ...jus dunno...speechless

[Goose]

HouWarrior---Keep buying drinks for everyone. If MU wants to have Northwestern standards they should improve the school and save money on the basketball program. Not exactly sure were you miss the point. We do not need to pay a coach $2 mil + to graduate our players. If you think it is is special to pay a guy a upper, upper money to have the the second or third highest graduation rate you have lost all perspective. Fifteen years ago some MU fans wanted to hire Paul Nowak from MUHS and I thought they were nuts. If we had hired him we would have 100% graduation rate and he would be paid $150K a year.

Honestly, you can be holier than thou all you want. We spend too much money to be a bubble team.Half the posters on here laugh at UW and ND for being losers and they spend far less than us. Who is losing this race?

Knock 'em dead this weekend HouWarrior. Your time to shine, buy drinks, talk about Al's time and make excuses why it will never happen again.

[HouWarrior]

If MU wants to have Northwestern standards they should improve the school and save money on the basketball program. Not exactly sure were you miss the point. We do not need to pay a coach $2 mil + to graduate our players. If you think it is is special to pay a guy a upper, upper money to have the the second or third highest graduation rate you have lost all perspective. Fifteen years ago some MU fans wanted to hire Paul Nowak from MUHS and I thought they were nuts. If we had hired him we would have 100% graduation rate and he would be paid $150K a year.

also:..."How about we become Northwestern and spend accordingly...."

Northwestern standards are beyond our grasp,as it  is US News ranked as the no. 12 best university in the USA, ahead of even 2 Ivy League schools, and  with an endowment of almost $6 billion, and Marquette....well not so much (no.75; $285million) .lol
Assuming zero growth with NUs endowment (unlikely, as it earned $700 million in FY2008), MU still  would need to save our entire $24 million athletics budget for over two hundred  thirty  years to get to such an endowment level. The cost to move MU to 12th best university in the USA, well...is unmeasurable. BTW, NUs athletic budget is $48 million/year, two times more than MU's.(UW and ND, who you referenced, each spend more than $80 million/year on athletics)
Sorry I thought yours  was sarcasm, as I just couldnt fathom any reality to the comparison, of MU becoming Northwestern, by a reduction, or even elimination of athletics. Feel free to tell me how we can ever become Northwestern, and I'll gladly accept all your personal slights, to me.And I'll buy you drinks, too. lol
Thanks

I guess where you especially confused me on the MU should spend less, to reach Northwestern standards/become Northwestern point, is that, in this very same thread, you also proposed, that:

..."However, as a fan, I would be happier with more wins and a lower graduation rate..."

that didnt sound like Northwestern standards, and was almost opposite to your other posts

[Goose]

HouWarrior---Obviously MU is not going to match Northwestern academically anytime soon, if it all. My point was if our basketball team was is going to have higher academic standards than it's BE peers it will be very difficult to compete. I stated I truthfully have no problem with MU trying to set the standard for student athletes. That said, if what he hang our hats on is our graduation rate and not FF appearances we do not need a big basketball budget.

I support MU in any decision they make on school or program. Northwestern is top tier school with lower end basketball program and the program is financially supported accordingly. At MU we have higher academic standards than many of the schools we recruit against and we outspend them as well. That seems foolish to me. If we want to be leaders in academic aspect of sports we should have a $1 mil coach and not a $2 mil coach.

As for my post of I would be happier with more wins and a lower graduation rate, that is 100% how I feel. All my other comments on this thread are based off others comments. I support MU no matter what path they take, but higher than normal academic standards, bigger ball budget than almost anyone and limited on court success does not seem to make great sense to me.

[slingkong]

Do you ever notice the end of the bench at North Carolina?  They are all short white guys who can barely play the game of basketball.  The cynic in me asks the question, do you think UNC signs these guys to up their graduation percentage?  Outside of them, UNC usually has players (most years) that leave early to go play in the Association.  That could be one way to balance it out. 

See other responses on whether these players count towards the graduation rate.  On a slight tangent, I do believe they count towards the team's overall GPA.  I know my grades counted towards the soccer teams overall GPA when I was a freshman walk-on.  That was one (the only?) reason Steve Adlard and I got along for the couple of years that I was on the team - that I was giving his grades a boost.