[Cracked Sidewalks] Buzz Williams to remain at Marquette as head coach

[kmwtrucks]

How many Burger Boys are from WISC?  Not many. Maybe 1 every 3 or 4 years.   If you lived in Indiana which has about quite a few every year and you got offer's from Duke, NC, IU, OHIO ST, UCLA, FL, KENT, TEXAS, ZONA, and Marquette were would you go? 

I think 2 Mil for a team that goes to the NCAA every year is about right.  My bar is set at no more Bubble teams. 

Also Private schools do not have to report how much they pay Coach's and I'm not sure if some of the Coach's on the list get money from other places that is not included.  Speaking Engagments, TV shows, Shoe deals Etc. 

[Goose]

Willie---I am with you across the board. Way too many excuses across the board. We have all the tools to be elite, yet so many fand accept bubble program. I said in earlier post that The AL was built to get J.P. Tokoto's of the world, not host a HS holiday tourney.

Time is now to raise the bar and expect bigger things from program.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Is that why MU ticket prices went down when TC left

Did they?

[Pakuni]

And 2 years of JUCO experience. Doesn't that count for something?  Or are you going to make the argument that Jae and Jamail had nearly identical experience levels the day they set foot on MU's campus?

Holy smokes. More straw men in this reply than a Broadway production of 'The Wiz.'
Yes, two years of JUCO count for something. No, it is nothing akin to playing D-I ball. In fact, the level of competition Crowder played against in JUCO was close to - and quite possibly worse than -  what Jones faced at Montverde Academy.
None of which changes my point ... Crowder had no D-I experience coming into this season.
Is it so hard for you to admit this reality, rather than create an irrelevant comparison to Jones?

I think you overstate how much time Chris actually missed:
11/14/08:  Injured
12/19/08:  First game appearance.  
Missed about one month of practice in 2008-09

11/24/08:  Reported injury (3 games into the season)
2/9/08:  Reported to have returned to practice with the team
Missed about 2 1/2 months.

No, I'm not misstating or overstating anything.
True or false, Chris Otule had played 85 minutes of college basketball coming into this season? True.
True or false, Chris Otule had missed significant practice time due to injury? True.

And your attempt to compare summer sessions, weightlifting, etc., to actual in-season practice time is utter nonsense. Though I'm wondering what's the difference between offseason camps and summer workouts.

Its pretty arrogant to think that DJO or Jae or Joe or Dwight didn't develop during their years in JUCO.

One more question--if Scott Monarch didn't help give Jimmy or Joe experience while he was a JUCO coach at Tyler JC, why did Buzz hire him as his assistant at Marquette?

Only if you completely disregard JUCO experience.

Nobody is disregarding it, but rather pointing out that it's nothing akin to D-I experience, especially these days.

In conference play, Fulce appeared in all 18 games and had 168 minutes, Gardner played in 16 games and netted 102 minutes.
My perception is that Fulce played more minutes in clutch games, and Gardner played more minutes when the outcome wasn't in doubt.  Statsheet backs this up with Fulce listed for 6 clutch games and 426 clutch seconds.  Gardner with zero clutch games/seconds.  

How convenient that your "perception" of what counts of being part of the rotation meets such a narrowly defined set of parameters established only after you're proven wrong.

Apparently none of Gardner's 15 minutes against Duke count as clutch time. Or his 18 against Wisconsin. Or 16 in the BE tournament against WVU. Or 33 against Xavier and UNC in the tournament.
Statsheet sure seems like a reliable site.

Wouldn't it just be easier to say "You know, I was wrong. Gardner was as much a part of the rotation as Joe Fulce" than to try these kinds of shenanigans?

[WarriorHal]

So why cannot we do it??????? Al Mcguire, who you brought up, was able to do it, coming from a Hick school like Belmont. Shureshefski is able to do it--I believe his first or second year, he was about 13-18. I am not saying that everybody has to be a McDonald's All American, but if Duke and NC can have 5 to 7 on their roster, we should get one ocassionally. When was the last time we did? Not sure if we ever had one. Last Parade All American was probably Kerry Trotter.
Too many people on this board offer excuses why we cannot--I prefer to challenge that thinking/excuse making with why not? We have excellent facilities, play in an NBA arena, the best/top 2 Conference in the Country, get great YV coverage with satellite, have a conference tourney in a Mecca of college BBall, have a storied History, some history of players making pros, even recently with Wade/Hayward/Diener/Mathews/Novak, etc.

Regarding MU's ability today to recruit Rivals.com 5-star, high school All-American types: Yes, Al McGuire was able to recruit those types of players and turn a small private Catholic school like Marquette into a super-elite program because he was a super-elite coach. He was in the same league as John Wooden, Bobby Knight, Dean Smith...because he was among the all-time greats. Those guys come along once in a lifetime. When Al retired, our recruiting immediately dropped off and within two years, Ray Meyer & DePaul became the top independent in the Midwest. DePaul did it by keeping the Chicago talent home...Aguirre, Cummings ect...the type of players that Al always signed. The point is, Marquette's status as one of the giants in the college basketball world was due almost entirely to one man.

Odds are that we're never gonna have another Al McGuire and we're never gonna be a member of the super-elite again. But with modern facilities, a supportive administration, and a very good coach, I do agree that there is no reason why we can't land a top national prospect once every few years. Actually, Vander Blue is supposed to be one of those guys...he was a rivals.com 5-star his senior year. In next season's class, Juan Anderson is a 4-star. So I would say that buzz is showing promise as very good recruiter.

Problem is, Buzz faces far more hurdles than Al did during his reign. Al had little competition for the top talent in Wis. & Ill. --Marquette was by far and away the top program in the region with only ND to beat in the recruiting wars. That's not the case today. Al could even go into metro New York and get super-star talent--George Thompson was the #2 player in NYC after Lew Alcindor. There was Dean the Dream, Earl Tatum, Butch Lee, and Bernard Toone. Now, the long-time Big East schools have that area wrapped up and we're shut out of New York and the rest of the East Coast. Villanova largely has Philly & NJ; Gtown & Maryland have DC as local recruiting grounds.

I wish things were the way they used to be, too, but there are legit reasons why MU is no longer among the super-elite and is highly unlikely to get back to that status anytime soon.

[El Duderino]

Great to hear, the program needs stability to thrive so long as the head coach is getting quality results.

[Goose]

WarriorHal--The past will not be repeated, times indeed have changed. However I do not believe MU cannot be super elite again. The path to get there is different one than we had with Al, agreed. MU basketball or any other school commited to winning has the ability to be super elite in 2011.

I will not never agree that something is impossible in today's world. It will be tough to get there but it can be done.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So why cannot we do it??????? Al Mcguire, who you brought up, was able to do it, coming from a Hick school like Belmont. Shureshefski is able to do it--I believe his first or second year, he was about 13-18. I am not saying that everybody has to be a McDonald's All American, but if Duke and NC can have 5 to 7 on their roster, we should get one ocassionally. When was the last time we did? Not sure if we ever had one. Last Parade All American was probably Kerry Trotter.
Too many people on this board offer excuses why we cannot--I prefer to challenge that thinking/excuse making with why not? We have excellent facilities, play in an NBA arena, the best/top 2 Conference in the Country, get great YV coverage with satellite, have a conference tourney in a Mecca of college BBall, have a storied History, some history of players making pros, even recently with Wade/Hayward/Diener/Mathews/Novak, etc.

Al was able to do it pre Big East and pre television explosion.  That changed the landscape considerably.  Big East players came to MU prior to the Big East.  Now they stay home.  Television has been a great equalizer for many programs.  Also, scholarship reductions have spread the wealth.  The expansion of the tournament also means more successful programs to choose from for the student athletes.

[El Duderino]

WarriorHal--The past will not be repeated, times indeed have changed. However I do not believe MU cannot be super elite again. The path to get there is different one than we had with Al, agreed. MU basketball or any other school commited to winning has the ability to be super elite in 2011.

I will not never agree that something is impossible in today's world. It will be tough to get there but it can be done.

Nobody is saying it's impossible, just very unlikely. There is a reason that that roughly the same 5-10 programs have been the elite programs for a long time in both college basketball and football, it's extremely hard to become one of them for a myriad of reasons.

[Marquette84]

Holy smokes. More straw men in this reply than a Broadway production of 'The Wiz.'
Yes, two years of JUCO count for something. No, it is nothing akin to playing D-I ball. In fact, the level of competition Crowder played against in JUCO was close to - and quite possibly worse than -  what Jones faced at Montverde Academy.
None of which changes my point ... Crowder had no D-I experience coming into this season.
Is it so hard for you to admit this reality, rather than create an irrelevant comparison to Jones?

LOL!  You accuse me of creating straw men, but then turn around and post two whoppers of your own!  JUCO is "nothing akin" to D1?  Top-level JUCO competition is worse than Florida prep school leagues?  Where did you pull those out of?  

JUCO is much more akin to D1 than any HS program is; and the level of competition Jones faced at Montverde paled in comparision to the much higher level Howard College played.  

As far as the "irrelevant" comparison to Jones, I'll simply point out that YOU put them both in the same "inexperienced" category.  If YOU didn't think they're comparable, then YOU shouldn't have compared them in the first place.

And I'll simply ask this:  If Jones had faced same or tougher competition as Crowder--and put up similar numbers-- why did Crowder come in and average nearly 30 minutes every game, while Jones managed 8 minutes in only half our games?

Why is is so hard for you to admit that JUCO experience might be more relevant than HS experience?  

No, I'm not misstating or overstating anything.
True or false, Chris Otule had played 85 minutes of college basketball coming into this season? True.
True or false, Chris Otule had missed significant practice time due to injury? True.

Of course you overstated Otule's "inexperience."  The points I added were just as relevant to Otule's overall experience level, and you didn't say one word about them.  You implied that the totality of the experience was minutes played--not months of practice.

True or false, Chris Otule was healthy for all but 3 1/2 of the 24+ months since arriving at MU?  True.
True or false, Otule had access to coaching, weights, team practice etc. during that time?  True.
True or false, Otule participated in pre-season and post-season practice and camps in each of the past 3 years?  True.

Think those latter three truths might have have given Chris more than "85 minutes" of experience?  

Why can't you just admit that you didn't tell the whole story?  

And your attempt to compare summer sessions, weightlifting, etc., to actual in-season practice time is utter nonsense. Though I'm wondering what's the difference between offseason camps and summer workouts.

I never made a comparision of summer sessions and weight sessions, etc. to in-season practice.    

I compared having access to summer sessions, weight sessions, etc., to coming in straight out from HS and NOT having access to such development.

How convenient that your "perception" of what counts of being part of the rotation meets such a narrowly defined set of parameters established only after you're proven wrong.

And how convenient for you to twist it your way.  

Its exceptionally dishonest of you to cite he number of games played as a factor when you KNOW that Fulce missed games early in the season with injuries.  

In conference play--when both players were healthy and equally available, three undeniable facts emerge:
--Who played more clutch minutes?  Fulce
--Who played more clutch games?  Fulce
--Who palyed more BE minues?  Fulce

Wouldn't it just be easier to say "You know, I was wrong. Gardner was as much a part of the rotation as Joe Fulce" than to try these kinds of shenanigans?

No, because when conference play started--when both Fulce and Gardner were available--Fulce got more of his minutes with the game on the line, and Gardner was anywhere but the floor when the game was on the line.

Here are the conference games where Gardner played during the last five minutes:
Notre Dame (22 point win)
DePaul (30 point win)
Providence (24 point win)
Provicence (BET) (19 point win)
Louisville (24 point loss)
UNC (18 point loss)

And Fulce was part of the rotation in the last five minutes during these games:
Pitt (9 point loss)
Louisville (1 point loss)
Notre Dame (5 point win)
Villanova (5 point loss)
USF (1 pont win)
Seton Hall (9 point win)
Xavier (11 point win)
Syracuse (4 point win)

So, no, I don't think Gardner was viewed by Buzz as significant part of the rotation as Fulce.

[HouWarrior]

Regarding Willie's posts, for the most part I agree with his logic. It seems that many Warrior fans are thin skinned and eager to defend anything and everything about the program. I love the team and school enough to know some things need to change. With change comes different set of expectations. IMO the following are some small issues that makes us look small time:
1. We need a better station to carry games. I love 540 but it is hardly a flagship station. Not enough of the population can get the games.
2. Attendance. We need students in the barn and alumni to show up. Announced attendance is great but people in BC makes a difference. Much easier to impress recruit with big crowds.
3. JS coverage. If MU needs to advertise to get better print space than they have to do it. I did not see mention of new Buzz contract in the paper today. Is that not local news worthy?
4. Getting the word out in general. Buzz and school has to promote better. The BBQ is nice but only geared towards diehards.

If MU does a better overall job of showcasing the entire program it will pay dividends to the school. I think many fans have become complacent due to general lack of local excitement surrounding program. The 50 people seeing team off is perfect example.

I believe that if every fan was more vested in the program we would be wanted better things. Basically we go at it half assed and hope for the best.

All of your points speak to making Marquette the biggest thing in Milwaukee..nice... but none are relavent to improving recruiting or program profile on a national stage...beyond the radio tower reach of 540--lol ,

[Pakuni]

LOL!  You accuse me of creating straw men, but then turn around and post two whoppers of your own!  JUCO is "nothing akin" to D1?  Top-level JUCO competition is worse than Florida prep school leagues?  Where did you pull those out of?  

JUCO is much more akin to D1 than any HS program is; and the level of competition Jones faced at Montverde paled in comparision to the much higher level Howard College played.  

With all due respect, you're displaying your ignorance on this subject here. Clearly you know nothing about Montverde Academy if you think all they do play in Florida prep school leagues.
Besides playing  Florida schools, they travel the country, not unlike an Oak Hill or Montrose, to play the best prep teams nationwide, teams loaded with D-1 players in the making.
Last year's schedule included two games against Findlay Prep (#3 in the country last year, per ESPN, and featuring two kids who started for Texas this year) and games with St. Benedict (#4), Westchester (#6), Providence (#8), Patterson (#31) and twice against Montrose, which is #3 in the nation this year. They also played twice against Winter Park (#11 in the nation last year, #14 this year, including the top player in the class of 2011).
So, yeah, I'd say those games feature more talented players than you're likely to come across in the Texas JUCO ranks.

As far as the "irrelevant" comparison to Jones, I'll simply point out that YOU put them both in the same "inexperienced" category.  If YOU didn't think they're comparable, then YOU shouldn't have compared them in the first place.

I never mentioned Jones. It's you who brought him into the discussion.
Reading is a skill.

Of course you overstated Otule's "inexperience."  The points I added were just as relevant to Otule's overall experience level, and you didn't say one word about them.  You implied that the totality of the experience was minutes played--not months of practice.

I implied no such thing. I stated his minutes played and in-season practice time lost, which are by far the most important means of gaining experience. You think summer and off-season time is comparable. So be it.
I suspect if we took a poll, the vast majority of MU fans would agree that Chris Otule was a very inexperienced player at the start of the season. You'd obviously think otherwise.

[Goose]

HouWarrior--More publicity does not improve recruiting? With fans like you I understand our place in the food chain.

[HouWarrior]

HouWarrior--More publicity does not improve recruiting? With fans like you I understand our place in the food chain.

Not to the point, but nice dig to me, on the kind of fan  I am though--lol.

Milwaukee publicity, profile/support assists Marquette with: 1) tickets sales and attendance; 2) donations/ alumni support, and is, as I noted, "nice"

But better local press/ stations, etc. only go so far. Wisconsin is not such a hotbed of HS BB talent,that MU can afford to only recruit in Milwaukee.

Ultimately,on court success, such as a few Sweet 16s, will solv the above two points, AND it will reach beyond Milwaukee, and build the recognition needed to jump recruiting and the program to the next level. In NCCA ball, it starts with a coaching "name", good facilities, a BCS conference level, and good consistent recruiting.

Improved Milwaukee publicity should be enjoyed by you, and others, but it is just "nice",  in comparison to the above bigger elements.

[Goose]

HouWarrior---Possibly a sold out BC might lead to more W's and national attention. Local media is needed to get the story out. I would have to think making BC a snakepit does help all aspects of the program. I see very few elite programs on page 3 of local paper the night after a home game with 7,000 empty seats.

Guess we just disagree on the this topic. I had also mentioned none of points were deal breakers, but needed to be addressed. LOL

[Marquette84]

With all due respect, you're displaying your ignorance on this subject here. Clearly you know nothing about Montverde Academy if you think all they do play in Florida prep school leagues.
Besides playing  Florida schools, they travel the country, not unlike an Oak Hill or Montrose, to play the best prep teams nationwide, teams loaded with D-1 players in the making.
Last year's schedule included two games against Findlay Prep (#3 in the country last year, per ESPN, and featuring two kids who started for Texas this year) and games with St. Benedict (#4), Westchester (#6), Providence (#8), Patterson (#31) and twice against Montrose, which is #3 in the nation this year. They also played twice against Winter Park (#11 in the nation last year, #14 this year, including the top player in the class of 2011).
So, yeah, I'd say those games feature more talented players than you're likely to come across in the Texas JUCO ranks.

Gotta love how you've switched from the blanket statement "the level of competition Crowder played against in JUCO was close to - and quite possibly worse" to singling out a handful of teams that might have some individual future D1 players.  I'll bet Crowder ran into a few future D1 players in his JUCO playing days as well.

So at best, over the course of the season, maybe Jones saw a handful of players who individually were better than the best guy Crowder saw.  Or maybe not.  But that doesn't mean that the overall level of competition was better.

But that doesn't matter anyway, because the bottom line is that Jones came in and largely sat on the bench, while Crowder came in and played every game--nearly 30 minutes a game. 

Tells me that there might be more to JUCO experience that you're willing to admit.

I never mentioned Jones. It's you who brought him into the discussion.
Reading is a skill.

No, actually, you DID bring him into the discussion:

"Essentially, of MU's top 10 players, only two had played D-1 ball for two seasons or more. On the other hand, five of them had less than one season experience."

Jones and Crowder were two of those five that you brought into the discussion as having the same experience level.

I stated his minutes played and in-season practice time lost, which are by far the most important means of gaining experience. You think summer and off-season time is comparable. So be it.

Reading is a skill.

I never made a comparision of summer sessions and weight sessions, etc. to in-season practice as the most important means of gaining experience.   

I compared having 21+ months of in-season practice, pre-season practice, summer sessions, weight sessions, etc., to coming in straight out from HS and NOT having access to any such development.

Meawhile, I think Buzz has said pre-season practice is the most important means of gaining experience.  If you miss pre-season, its almost impossible for a player to catch up.

And it makes sense. By the time you're playing a regular cadence of in-seaons games, practice is mostly game prep for a specific upcoming opponent--not focused on long-term development.  In the pre-season is when you develop the fundamental understanding of the coach's overall offense and defense.  In the off-season is when you do your conditioning and boot camp.

Player development is a year-round activity.  Missing one month doesn't negate the other 11.

[Pakuni]

But that doesn't matter anyway, because the bottom line is that Jones came in and largely sat on the bench, while Crowder came in and played every game--nearly 30 minutes a game. 
Tells me that there might be more to JUCO experience that you're willing to admit.

I'm done with this discussion after this and you can have the last word if you must, but I feel compelled to answer a couple of completely wrong statements.
First, the notion that Crowder must have played more because he was more experienced, not because he was better.
This, obviously, is ridiculous and utterly illogical.
What does it mean when a freshman plays more than a senior, which happens at many if not most programs every year? Using your logic, it must be a sign that somehow, someway, that freshman had more experience. How else could one explain the fact he played more? Couldn't be that he's a better player, right?

No, actually, you DID bring him into the discussion:

"Essentially, of MU's top 10 players, only two had played D-1 ball for two seasons or more. On the other hand, five of them had less than one season experience."

Jones and Crowder were two of those five that you brought into the discussion as having the same experience level.
 
Reading is a skill.

Yes, a skill with which you seem to struggle.
I said five of MU's top 10 players had less than one year experience.
MU's top 10, both in minutes and points scored (you choose which matters more here), were:
DJO
Butler
Crowder
Buycks
Otule
Blue
Gardner
Cadougan
Fulce
Williams

I've bolded the ones with less than a full season's D-I experience. Do the math. Get back to me about how I brought Jones into the discussion.

Missing one month doesn't negate the other 11.

Now it's one month out of 12?
That's funny, because last year Chris didn't play any of MU's 31 games in December, January, February or March.
Apparently there's been some calendar consolidation of which I've been previously unaware.

I never made a comparision of summer sessions and weight sessions, etc. to in-season practice as the most important means of gaining experience.   

Previous post:

"The points I added were just as relevant to Otule's overall experience level"


No, no comparison at all. You called them "just as relevant" to his experience but that doesn't make for a comparison, I guess. After all, who would use a phrase like "just as relevant" when making a comparison?

[Marquette84]

First, the notion that Crowder must have played more because he was more experienced, not because he was better.
This, obviously, is ridiculous and utterly illogical.

Of course it is. Which makes is the perfect straw man.  Problem is, I never said or implied it.

The suggestion was that Crowder's experience made him better, which explains his additional playing time vis-a-vis Jones.

What does it mean when a freshman plays more than a senior, which happens at many if not most programs every year? Using your logic, it must be a sign that somehow, someway, that freshman had more experience. How else could one explain the fact he played more? Couldn't be that he's a better player, right?

How do you reconcile Jones tallying 16 points and 6 boards against what you argue is superior competition, while Crowder puts up similar numbers (19 points and 9 boards) against what you claim is weaker competition, and yet when they both get to D1, Crowder gets about 10x the minutes?

I think its that the experience of two more years out of HS at the JUCO level is more important and relevant that you are willing to concede.  

I said five of MU's top 10 players had less than one year experience.
MU's top 10, both in minutes and points scored (you choose which matters more here), were:
DJO
Butler
Crowder
Buycks
Otule
Blue
Gardner
Cadougan
Fulce
Williams

I've bolded the ones with less than a full season's D-I experience. Do the math. Get back to me about how I brought Jones into the discussion.

Your list is wrong. Otule had two seasons of D1 experience at the start of the year.  Cadougan had one.  Just because they spent part of their time injured doesn't mean they did not gain D1 experience.

The five players on MU's roster for 2010-11 with less than a full season's worth of D1 experience were 1. Crowder, 2. Jones, 3. Blue, 4. Gardner and 5. Smith.   I chose to compare Crowder to Jones.

I'm sorry--I didn't realize that you were basing your statement on factually incorrect information.

Now it's one month out of 12?
That's funny, because last year Chris didn't play any of MU's 31 games in December, January, February or March.
Apparently there's been some calendar consolidation of which I've been previously unaware.

The calendar you were previously unaware of was the one in use for the 2008-09 season:

11/14/08:  Injured
12/19/08:  First game appearance.  
Missed about one month of practice in the 2008-09 season

So, from September 1 2008 through August 30 2009 (that's a 12 month period, Pakuni) Otule missed about one month of practice.  As I said, you want to argue that the 11 months he was there is negated by the 1 month he was unable to participate fully in practice.

Do you need me to walk you through the 2009-10 season as well, or can you figure that one out on your own?    

"The points I added were just as relevant to Otule's overall experience level"


No, no comparison at all. You called them "just as relevant" to his experience but that doesn't make for a comparison, I guess. After all, who would use a phrase like "just as relevant" when making a comparison?

Nope, not a comparison.

If I were to say that food and shelter are both just as relevant to your survival, I'm not making a comparison BETWEEN food and shelter or saying that one is better for survival than the other.  Both can be relevant without being directly comparable.

Similarly, I never compared Boot Camp, summer practice, individual coaching workouts, etc. to in-season practice--but merely pointed out that they are just as relevant to adding to the experience profile of a returning player.

[El Duderino]

What exactly is the main point trying to be achieved between Marquette84 and Pakuni's arguing?

That 84 is implying maybe Marquette as a team this year should have won an extra game or two, even though the bottom line of MU still making the big dance and then the Sweet 16 pretty much would have rendered that extra win or two irrelevant?

It just strikes me as they are having this long argument over semantics which are largely unimportant anyways. Oh well, to each their own i guess.

[brewcity77]

What exactly is the main point trying to be achieved between Marquette84 and Pakuni's arguing?

That 84 is implying maybe Marquette as a team this year should have won an extra game or two, even though the bottom line of MU still making the big dance and then the Sweet 16 pretty much would have rendered that extra win or two irrelevant?

It just strikes me as they are having this long argument over semantics which are largely unimportant anyways. Oh well, to each their own i guess.

+1

I have no idea what the point of it is. Seems like it's gotten to the point of arguing for arguing's sake.

[ATL MU Warrior]

What exactly is the main point trying to be achieved between Marquette84 and Pakuni's arguing?

That 84 is implying maybe Marquette as a team this year should have won an extra game or two, even though the bottom line of MU still making the big dance and then the Sweet 16 pretty much would have rendered that extra win or two irrelevant?

It just strikes me as they are having this long argument over semantics which are largely unimportant anyways. Oh well, to each their own i guess.

If I may, I suggest you use the Ignore feature on MU84.  He's usually the one that perpetuates these ridiculous arguments that go on and on forever with no obvious point other than MU84 trying to display his "superior" b-ball intellect.  They are utterly pointless and I don't know whether to admire Pakuni for calling BS or feeling bad for him that he gets involved.

[tower912]

That has saved me stress.   Every few weeks I take him off of 'ignore', and then he usually goes back on within a day or two.   

[Pakuni]

What exactly is the main point trying to be achieved between Marquette84 and Pakuni's arguing?

That 84 is implying maybe Marquette as a team this year should have won an extra game or two, even though the bottom line of MU still making the big dance and then the Sweet 16 pretty much would have rendered that extra win or two irrelevant?

It just strikes me as they are having this long argument over semantics which are largely unimportant anyways. Oh well, to each their own i guess.

You're correct, it is a silly, semantical argument over ultimately trivial issues, and I get dragged (or drag myself) into such things too frequently.
Bottom line: MU84 thinks Marquette ran an experienced lineup out onto the court this season. I disagree.

[willie warrior]

Warrior Hal:

More excuses being offered up. Al did not get the pick of the crop in Wisconsin. He was always up against UW back in the day, and UW got their share of the Wsoconsin crop.

There is no reason we should not get some studs, which is my point. I hope Juan Anderson turns out special, but is he a HS all american?

We have the facilities, the conference, the tradition, etc. to get some studs periodically, and I for one will expect In Buzz We Trust to do just that. 2.3 to 2.5 million is not chump change. Cuonzo Marting just got about 1.3 million to go to Tennessee, which is about half of Buzz's. So we should expect a big time program, and quickly!

[Goose]

Willie---You will have hard time getting support on here, but you got mine. Too many excuses for too long. If Buzz is making this kind of money I expect high school All Americans not ranked 80 guys. For too long excuses are made on why we do not get guys.

In addition, you are 100% correct on Al's WI recruiting. Virtually every player he recruited from WI was a complimentary player, not a stud. In today's game every kid in the country is fair game. It is time for MU fans to expect an elite program on the court.