Who is the better basketball program, UW or Butler?

[Tugg Speedman]

Who is the better basketball program, UW or Butler?

Thoughts?

[MerrittsMustache]

Who is better, UW or Butler?

Thoughts?

Butler. They just beat Wisco convincingly on a neutral court. Next question.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Butler, despite what their seed says.

[willie warrior]

Butler. They just beat Wisco convincingly on a neutral court. Next question.

I guess by that logic, UW is better than MU since they whupped us on our floor.

[Doris Burkes Thong]

Butler, and it's not even close at the moment. Since 2003 they have two Sweet 16 appearances and 2 Final Fours. And quite honestly I think they got a dam good chance to win the national championship this year as there is no "true" dominant team left in the field.

[MerrittsMustache]

Butler. They just beat Wisco convincingly on a neutral court. Next question.

My bad. I was thinking team not program. Either way, the answer is Butler and it's not much of a debate.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I guess by that logic, UW is better than MU since they whupped us on our floor.

Using any logic, that's the case this year.  UW was a better team than us. 

Head to head
Ken Pom
RPI
Sagarin
Etc, etc

[wadesworld]

Brad Stephens has got to be the best coach in the United States.  Shelvin Mack is a very good player.  Other than that they are not talented at all relative to the teams they have been going up against recently.  Howard works hard and gets the job done because of it, but he is not a talented player (again, relative to the teams they are playing at this point).  Who else on their team is even remotely close to as talented as the players on the other teams?  I just don't understand how they do what they do.  They have far less size, athleticism, and skill than Pitt and Florida.  They had no business beating those teams if you just look at the players on the team.  You go position by position and I think Mack is the only player who has even a chance at being the better player against both of those teams, and with Gibbs and Boyntin that might not even be the case.  Even ODU had more talent than them.  It's crazy what Stephens has been able to do.

They don't get rattled at all and they completely control the pace of the game.  I have yet to see them play at a pace the opposing team wants to in the last 2 NCAA Tournaments.  Incredibly disciplined.  Not to mention, the ball just rolls their way.  It was crazy how many shots went down for them that shouldn't have and  how many popped out that were 3/4 of the way down for Florida.

I love March Madness.

[groove]

Using any logic, that's the case this year.  UW was a better team than us. 

Head to head
Ken Pom
RPI
Sagarin
Etc, etc

+1
No question

[ChicosBailBonds]

Brad Stephens has got to be the best coach in the United States.  Shelvin Mack is a very good player.  Other than that they are not talented at all relative to the teams they have been going up against recently.  Howard works hard and gets the job done because of it, but he is not a talented player (again, relative to the teams they are playing at this point).  Who else on their team is even remotely close to as talented as the players on the other teams?  I just don't understand how they do what they do.  They have far less size, athleticism, and skill than Pitt and Florida.  They had no business beating those teams if you just look at the players on the team.  You go position by position and I think Mack is the only player who has even a chance at being the better player against both of those teams, and with Gibbs and Boyntin that might not even be the case.  Even ODU had more talent than them.  It's crazy what Stephens has been able to do.

They don't get rattled at all and they completely control the pace of the game.  I have yet to see them play at a pace the opposing team wants to in the last 2 NCAA Tournaments.  Incredibly disciplined.  Not to mention, the ball just rolls their way.  It was crazy how many shots went down for them that shouldn't have and  how many popped out that were 3/4 of the way down for Florida.

I love March Madness.

It's STEVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How can you say Matt Howard is not a talented player?   

[Doris Burkes Thong]

 They have far less size, athleticism, and skill than Pitt and Florida.

See this is where I disagree. They actually have very quick and athletic guards IMO. Just look at the job they did on Jordan Taylor and the job they do overall defensively, which is because of their ability to contain dribble penetration. Those guards can keep opposing teams guards in front of them and that allows you to have lots of success defensively when you can do that.  Shelvin Mack, Ronald Norad, and Shawn Vanzat are all quicker than Pitt's guards and are just as quick as Kenny Boynton and Walker from Florida. In fact, I heard Rick Pitino say that before Louisville played Butler earlier in the season they had already begun to prepare for them way back in October. He said they spent a lot of time game planning for Ronald Norad. And not for his offense, but to make him less effective on the defensive end becasue he was so good. I don't think I ever heard a coach say that before. I think the reason why they're so good is becasue they got very athetic guards and skilled big men that relish doing the dirty work too. Plus, they got guys that can shoot it from deep and they play smart and have a coach who is great under pressure. The only weakness I see on their team is they lack some length and athleticism in the frontcourt. UNC is the one team that would be a terrible matchup for them like they were for MU. If they avoid UNC I can see Butler winning it all.

[79Warrior]

Who is the better basketball program, UW or Butler?

Thoughts?

Who cares? I thought this was an MU board?

[Norm]

Brad Stephens has got to be the best coach in the United States.  Shelvin Mack is a very good player.  Other than that they are not talented at all relative to the teams they have been going up against recently.  Howard works hard and gets the job done because of it, but he is not a talented player (again, relative to the teams they are playing at this point).  Who else on their team is even remotely close to as talented as the players on the other teams?  I just don't understand how they do what they do.

Butler actually recruits pretty well for a Horizon league team. Howard was a 4-star recruit who turned down lots of good schools, including Indiana and Purdue to attend Butler. Mack, Nored, Marshall and Hopkins were all 3-star recruits.

[Jay Bee]

Butler has what we don't - lots of traditional players.

[ChicosBailBonds]

For all the love that Stevens is getting (richly deserved), folks might want to go in the time machine for the other flavors of the day in the last two decades at mid majors trying then to jump to the bigger programs.  Sometimes coaches are able to get mid major talent to overachieve and play lights out.  Those same coaches, when working with "HIGH" end talent that also comes with their baggage (some think they should be the guy, should be in the NBA, have all kinds of handlers, etc) and it doesn't work out nearly as well.

Not saying Stevens couldn't handle the next level, he more than likely can.  However, the landscape is littered with coaches that did very well at the mid major level but the transition to the higher talent level pool didn't translate.

[4everwarriors]

Orwell,
Is this even a legit question? Seriously, dude, the ultimate judge is what teams do in March. Now, whatda you think?

[Mr. Nielsen]

The Horizon League has 18 toury win since 2003. Just two behind the A-10 with 20, so that make the HL with the 2nd most wins for a league outside the 6 BCS leagues.

Butler 14, Milwaukee 3, Cleveland State 1

Wisconsin has 13 toury win since 2003

[MUBurrow]

Program? I still say UW. Listen, I hate UW as much if not more than anyone else in the world, but when I think of comparing programs, I ask myself which job I would rather take starting tomorrow. For me that job is UW.  They are in a better program and have only one other in-state school with which to compete for recruits (us). Recruiting against that school they are all things being equal, at least even up for recruiting, probably prima facie ahead as the major state school.  Butler is in a better hotbed but competes with IU, Purdue, Notre Dame, etc.  If IU gets it turned around record wise, Butler's recruiting ability falls - I see that as somewhat of a zero sum game. So by that measure, Butler depends on the misfortune of others, whereas UW controls its own destiny to a much greater degree.

I have to assume that UW's facilities are better than Butler (although I have no affirmative knowledge of that) plus UW has all the appeal that goes with the huge party state school.

Finally the horizon league is not a good league.  You have a lot of secondary schools in big markets (UWM, Detroit, Loyola, UIC) but they will always get the scraps the big boys leave behind.  Every year you lose sleep wondering if you can lure a 4 star kid the next year, and in a bad year you might struggle for 3 star kids.  Brad Stevens is undoubtedly a great coach, but I don't think he's reached the point yet where his ability alone overcomes the institutional capital that UW has built up. And until Butler starts getting seeded 4 or better repeatedly in the tournament and being viewed as a favorite rather than a perpetual tourney underdog, I don't think it happens. These mid major powers have ceilings, and I think we've seen that with Gonzaga.  At best they can be cyclical favorites and remain just dangerous the rest of the time.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Orwell,
Is this even a legit question? Seriously, dude, the ultimate judge is what teams do in March. Now, whatda you think?

Disagree with this...the best team doesn't always win the championship or advance the farthest. Al McGuire agrees.