Guards game....

[Harrison]

remeber it is a guards game.  And that point is so important that you do not even need D1 quality bigs!  We have 1 BE quality big and he seems to like picking up 2 fouls in the first minute of every game.  Crean pull your head out of your arse and get some talent over 6'8"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  We are top 10 with Suton on our squad. 8 years into your tenure and you have recruited Scott Merritt!!

[thatman32]

They were many people on both boards(especially dodds . . .  what a tool) that either implied it or stated that it was a guards game.  Those people have obviously never studied basketball or know what the hell they are talking about.  It was never a guards game but it was in their own mind.  Apparently TC thinks its a guards game too and that is why has lost in the first round two years in a row because he doesn't know what he is doing among many other things. 

Oh well he's tom crean. . . Ra Ra.  The alumni must love a crappy product.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Harrison -- you're nuts. Our bigs might be bad, but our guards are average at best. James wasn't even close to getting by his guy.

[thatman32]

James couldn't get past his guy because MSU didn't respect our bigs.  So they could pressure the perimeter at ease because they know Barro, and others, are not very good

[MUCHI814]

it's easy to get by in college basketball with good guards, lets say stay around the top 25 all year, but when it comes down to tough conference play and the tournament it's been shown year in and year out you need some sort of threat down low, not someone who is able to just put the ball in a wide open net.(which I'm not sure all of MU's big men our able to do)

[maxpower773]

he's tried to get talent. it's not like he doesn't know this, you guys are stating this like its new news to a coach. besides academics to play into it, not everyone can handle it. also, you try to go find random big guys with above average talent in different parts of the country(cause we know they aren't from around here) and have their attitudes and academics be right to play at marquette. this isn't cincinnati. we've never had good big men in the past 20 years or so besides jackson and mcilvaine. so don't think that this is something new, we are just playing teams that are a lot better.

[thatman32]

You make it seem that getting bigs every year is soo hard.  If we had southern illinois's bigs we would be a top 15 team.  Its not difficult its just that TC can't develop them and he doesn't want to throw the ball inside.  If other schools can do it there is no reason why Marquette can't.  We are not in the Ivy league. 

[maxpower773]

we also aren't in their league either. watching the games today i saw a couple bigs we apparently recruited...some didn't have good grades and others turned out to be head cases in high school. but everyone that makes the point of how easy it is getting a big hasn't seen marquette basketball for the past 20 years. we've almost never had a good big. and how has crean no developed them? jackson and now barro for two...you're telling me neither of them improved at their time at marquette? so richard shaw and mueller improved alot and where great back in the 90's?

[thatman32]

there is nothing wrong with some headcases  as long as they are not crazy or just plain stupid.  If other schools(that are better academically or the same) can get bigs there is no reason as to why MU should not be able to get bigs. 

Quit playing the "MU is hard to get into or they have dangerous personalitys" game because that insufficient in the long run.  TC has been here for 8 years and the only good big that had a sufficient post game was robert jackson.  All the others were pretty bad.  Barro can't do anything on offense either so I don't consider him to be a very good player. 

[MUCHI814]

I agree totally that it is hard to find big men especially ones that will want to come to Marquette and not really be a key role in it's offense.  However, I don't like the junior college big men strategy.  It hasn't worked in the past and it isn't working now.  I feel there's a reason these guys didn't get D1 scholarships.  I would like to see Crean stay away from that and try and develop his own big men. 

[thatman32]

Well lets make the bigs part of the offense like most other teams.  Also, outsourcing to JUCOS is recipe for failure but TC can't seem to realize that.

[maxpower773]

there is nothing wrong with some headcases  as long as they are not crazy or just plain stupid.  If other schools(that are better academically or the same) can get bigs there is no reason as to why MU should not be able to get bigs. 

Quit playing the "MU is hard to get into or they have dangerous personalitys" game because that insufficient in the long run.  TC has been here for 8 years and the only good big that had a sufficient post game was robert jackson.  All the others were pretty bad.  Barro can't do anything on offense either so I don't consider him to be a very good player. 

Well first, go find a good big man that doesn't need to develop much, since he should be good enough already that he can come and make an impact his first year. Now find one that is smart enough. Now find one that hasn't done anything to tarnish his reputation. You cannot recruit based on talent alone.....its why we have no 4 year seniors. Barro never played before college, so I don't know what you expect of him. Merritt was decent, he is what we need now. Nnamika and Sanders were ok and did what was asked of them, I don't know if they were his recruits, but they played on his teams, he developed them into good enough players. They were huge centers like anyone wants though, I want a good center as much as the next guy, but there are more 6'-6'8" people than taller people. Add in that they better be good enough to come in and be able to develop. I'll also point out again, besides Barro, Jackson, Merritt and McIlvaine, name a center that were as good as they were since the 90's or even 80's.

[thatman32]

most bigs do take time to develop but then again most bigs are recruited in multiple recruiting classes so there is time for them to develop.  There is nothing wrong with a tarnished reputation either.  As for the center/forwards you named they were nothing special.  Instead of following the trend of not having centers maybe TC can break the trend and do something about it.  Or he can get some 6'8-6'10 players but he has to actually throw the  ball to them and train them on offense.   

TC needs to quit playing the could would would coulda shoulda game and do something about it or we need to find someone that will do something about it.

[State]

Please stop the using the 'smart defense'...we will take anyone.--we take Jucos, parital qualifiers and those that should be in the pros.


We will take them...they just won't come.  DJ was a big loss to our 'Bigs' development.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ben Howland told me Monday night...guards game.  Actually he told the world as it was part of his interview on ESPN.  I watched his guards dominated team tonight dismantle their opponent.

Regardless, as I and everyone here has stated...of course we need bigs and quality bigs, no one has ever said that isn't the case despite your continued representation of such.

Oh well, such is life.

[Mayor McCheese]

Talk about beating a dead horse....

between James taking too many shots, us not having bigs, or Crean screwing up... this board beats every bad thing in Marquette basketball right now...  gosh, Crean doesn't intend on not recruiting bigs, its a tough thing to do, American Women just aren't popping out 7'0" left and right, and in my eyes.. I would rather have 3 or 4 Barro's than a Suton... he just wouldn't fit in our offense... whats the real point of having a big when we want to run and gun... why we lost tonight is we shot under 30%, period.  We didn't run, and were just completely outcoached and outplayed.  Can we just lay down this no bigs to rest, goodness.

[muwarrior87]

thank you Mayor!!

[MarquetteDano]

Look, everyone wants great players at every position.  I agree it would be great to have a Greg Oden type at Center for us.

What is meant by saying its a Guards game is to say that you always start with guards.  Imagine the following scenario:

Two Schools:  They both get three scholarships each.  One school can only give scholarships to players under 6-7, they other school, only players over 6-8.  The rest of the team must be walk-ons.

On average, the school with 6-7 and under scholarships are going to win.  If you disagree, I think you need to read some of the basketball coaching books by the best coaches in the game.  An over-whelming majority would vote for the 6-7 and under school to win.

That is what is meant by it's a guards game.

[Harrison]

Nice scenario...and I know everyone would take the "guards" team in that situation but sorry it's not black or white.  Like the one poster said you can have a decent team with good guards, but you cannot take it to then next level.  And do you have to check your name at the recruiting door and recruit only one in the real world??  Additionally, our bigs are so bad it has a even more negative effect.  If you knew what you were watching you would have seen MSU absolutely disrespect our screen and roll, they simply hedged or double teamed the guard.  Barro is the only player on our team over 6'8" and 200 lbs that can do anything within 10 feet and he is severly limited and likes to pick up 2 fouls in the first minute of every game.  Offensively he is a travel waiting to happen on a post up.  He scores exclusivly on the break or dump offs. He cannot catch the basketball seriously hindering the screen and roll.  That is just offensively.  Defensively he is weak and has no elevation to rebound.  And that is Barro, but he likes to pick up 2 fouls early in most games.  Therefore we are left with our other collection  of bigs who missed almost every layup, free throw, cannot catch, cannot pass and even worse cannot defend or rebound.  Guards are very important but when your bigs are not even D1 caliber it begins to make a difference, sorry if you are blind to that.

[NavinRJohnson]

why we lost tonight is we shot under 30%, period. 

Well, that and the fact that MSU shot almost 60%.

[Harrison]

exactly, which adds to my point that as terrible as our bigs are on offense which causes the job for our guards to be infinitely harder.  They are even worse on defense!! How many dunks or wide open layups did they have as our DII bigs searched in vain for their man or got out rebounded for putbacks?  Crean has simply flunked to an amazing degree his responsibility to have adeqaute bigs on the team.
  I liken the "it's a guards game " argument that Chicos and others refuse to let go of, to the phrase "you gotta stop the run" in Football. To continue the analogy Crean would then have Defensive lineman at the safety and corner positions.  Meanwhile we give up 900 yards a game in the air and some keep chanting" you gotta stop the run".  And "our line did not make enough tackles"   Just a hint...for the offseason...ya gotta have both.

[MarquetteDano]

I think few are saying that you don't need a quality bigs.  You were refuting the guard's game comment.  I explained what is meant by it... All things being equal, you are better with great guards than great big men.

I hear what you are saying that are bigs are not very good.  I couldn't agree more.  If we had great guards and above average big men we would be in a very good position.  As it stands, we have below average big men and that isn't helping.

[Harrison]

We are on the same page then.  But others especially Chcios( read his posts) basically discount the need for quality big men at all. What others also do not understand too is that other teams are disregarding our bigs on D and over playing or packing the paint and negating our ability to drive. This makes the job of the guards even more difficult.  The same people that say "DJ needs to dive more" dont realize if he beats his man there are 2 bigs waiting to stop him which would not occur if they were not able to overplay.  So we cannot dump it down low, we cannot drive so we are left with perimeter shots and we are not great shooters.   Lastly, our bigs cannot play defense, rebounding included.

[Mayor McCheese]

We are on the same page then.  But others especially Chcios( read his posts) basically discount the need for quality big men at all. What others also do not understand too is that other teams are disregarding our bigs on D and over playing or packing the paint and negating our ability to drive. This makes the job of the guards even more difficult.  The same people that say "DJ needs to dive more" dont realize if he beats his man there are 2 bigs waiting to stop him which would not occur if they were not able to overplay.  So we cannot dump it down low, we cannot drive so we are left with perimeter shots and we are not great shooters.   Lastly, our bigs cannot play defense, rebounding included.

if two bigs come up and meet him when he drives... he CAN dump it down low, Barro is good at putting the ball in the hoop when hes that close, so is Hayward, we just ran into foul trouble with them, along with not being able to handle the ball, and that was the problem... second half, we went away from driving to the hoop....

With Rebounding... you do realize we outrebounded MSU correct?

[WashDCWarrior]

It really seems that everyone in this thread is arguing the same position.  Primarily, to be an elite team (top 15) a team needs a combination of quality guards and big men.

The way I understand the "guards game" argument is that without quality guards and team will not be very good regardless of the quality of the big men.  However, with quality guards and poor big men, and team can still be pretty good.

Let's compare MU and USF.  Marquette had one of the better groups of guards in the Big East, and below average big men.  USF had good quality bigs and mediocre guards.  MU went 10-6 BE and USF went 3-13 BE.