Myths we can now put to rest

[NersEllenson]

As a fanboy, my only frustration comes from those who knee jerk so harshly after defeats.  I always preach a little patience, perspective and context - it sucks losing 9 games in a conference season...but when you go back and look at the opposition and number of road games at ranked teams...just part of Big East basketball..and maybe even more so this year.

[groove]

Bingo.

I'm guilty of it too, but I'm still amazed at the emotional "thinking" that goes on around here.

When MU wins, it proves Buzz and Co. shouldn't be questioned and have no problems. When they lose, Buzz is over his head and next year they will be worse.

C'mon people... have a little perspective.

With this said, great aggressiveness and great wins the past 2 nights. Outside of the ND game at home, I think this is the best they have played. I also like the rotations on the bench. I feel like it keeps them a little fresher and they run and gun pretty hard.

Hopefully Buzz spreading out the minutes the last two nights will pay off tonight. He did a good job the last two nights.

[ChicosBailBonds]

With all due respect, I've already put this myth to bed.  Looking at 11-7 vs. last year's schedule and 9-9 vs. this year's schedule and calling it "missing a beat" is putting your head in the sand and willfully ignoring context.  This year's conference schedule was MUCH tougher than last year.  Keep towing the party line though!

With all due respect, no you haven't.  Each season is unique onto itself.  You are compared against your peers (your fellow conference members) in that given year.  That's why we have standings and record wins and losses each year. 

Part of not "missing a beat" is keeping up with the rest of the conference.  If they improve, then we need to improve as well.  That's what it means not to miss a beat...literally, that's what it means.  We did miss a beat because we haven't kept up with the Jones this season.  Doesn't mean we won't in the future, but this year we did not.

Of course there are going to be years when you can say, "if only this team played in last year's season because the conference was so much worse".  That's not how life works.  It's certainly not how business works or sports.

So with all due respect, no you didn't put that myth to bed.  A, it's not a myth.  B, it's reality. 

This is not a negative opinion, it's simply based on fact of where we finish  In years past, we were in the range for 4th through 6th....this year we are 9th with an 11 seed.  That is missing a beat, IMO.  Hopefully next year we are back in the upper half of the league and not relegated to an 11 seed.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thank you again for your wisdom.  Who was the lead recruiter on Fulce and Otule?

Do players sign on to play for coaches and schools or the assistant coach?  Next time their is recruiting press release in this country that is done that shows the player signed with X university to play for the assistant coach, let me know. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

He is a priest.

I prefer Druid

[Les Nessman]

With all due respect, no you haven't.  Each season is unique onto itself.  You are compared against your peers (your fellow conference members) in that given year.  That's why we have standings and record wins and losses each year. 

Part of not "missing a beat" is keeping up with the rest of the conference.  If they improve, then we need to improve as well.  That's what it means not to miss a beat...literally, that's what it means.  We did miss a beat because we haven't kept up with the Jones this season.  Doesn't mean we won't in the future, but this year we did not.

Of course there are going to be years when you can say, "if only this team played in last year's season because the conference was so much worse".  That's not how life works.  It's certainly not how business works or sports.

So with all due respect, no you didn't put that myth to bed.  A, it's not a myth.  B, it's reality. 

This is not a negative opinion, it's simply based on fact of where we finish  In years past, we were in the range for 4th through 6th....this year we are 9th with an 11 seed.  That is missing a beat, IMO.  Hopefully next year we are back in the upper half of the league and not relegated to an 11 seed.

I agree with Chicos on this one.

[Pakuni]

So what if MU, for the first time, wins three games in the BE tourney?
Have they "missed a beat?"
What if they win a tourney game, compared to last year's first-round exit? What if they win two, something that hasn't happened in eight years? will Chico still be here telling us they missed a beat?

This is such a silly debate because there are many, many ways one can measure a team's success and many, many factors (and yes, schedule is one of them) that play into it. Limiting it to only regular season/conference record makes little sense.
By that logic, the Green Bay Packers "missed a beat" in the 2010 season. After all, their regular season record was better in 2009.

Perhaps we should wait until the season is over before deciding whether or not the team missed a beat this year.

[Benny B]

I prefer Druid

If I had to guess, I would have thought you to be a Paladin.

[RawdogDX]

2.  Buzz can't make adjustments.   The press got us back into it and when he called the TO, he made adjustments to attack the 1-3-1.    Going small at the end really helped us defend the 3
Not a myth imo.  I Think Buzz has gotten better at making adjustments. Hopefully he  continues and the discussion becomes moot.
3.   We have a weakness at 5.   Young.   Will still be inconsistent at times, but we will be fine.
Before last night our two 5's were putting up 10 & 8 over the 2nd half of big east play.  Pretty good for underclassmen

[Silkk the Shaka]

With all due respect, no you haven't.  Each season is unique onto itself.  You are compared against your peers (your fellow conference members) in that given year.  That's why we have standings and record wins and losses each year. 

Part of not "missing a beat" is keeping up with the rest of the conference.  If they improve, then we need to improve as well.  That's what it means not to miss a beat...literally, that's what it means.  We did miss a beat because we haven't kept up with the Jones this season.  Doesn't mean we won't in the future, but this year we did not.

Of course there are going to be years when you can say, "if only this team played in last year's season because the conference was so much worse".  That's not how life works.  It's certainly not how business works or sports.

So with all due respect, no you didn't put that myth to bed.  A, it's not a myth.  B, it's reality. 

This is not a negative opinion, it's simply based on fact of where we finish  In years past, we were in the range for 4th through 6th....this year we are 9th with an 11 seed.  That is missing a beat, IMO.  Hopefully next year we are back in the upper half of the league and not relegated to an 11 seed.

Wow, you really are stubborn, aren't you?  Stick to your talking point if you like, but here are the two conference schedules last year and this year, using Pomeroy's rankings.

2010

Rank   Opponent       Location    Tournament Team?
4   Syracuse      Away    Yes
8   West Virginia   Away    Yes
13   Georgetown      Home    Yes
21   Villanova      Home    Yes
21   Villanova      Away    Yes
31   Pittsburgh      Home    Yes
38   Notre Dame      Home    Yes
43   Louisville      Home    Yes
56   Connecticut   Away    No
67   St. John's      Away    No
72   Seton Hall      Away    No
75   Cincinnati      Away    No
83   South Florida   Home    No
88   Providence      Home    No
88   Providence      Away    No
156   Rutgers      Home    No
172   DePaul      Away    No
172   DePaul      Home    No

Three road games against tournament teams.  8 games against KenPom top 50. 6 against the top 35.  5 against the top 25.  Mirror opponents were #21 Villanova, #88 Providence, #172 DePaul.  At top 25 Pomeroy team (which we moved up to after last night) would be expected to go 13-5 or 12-6 through that schedule.

2011

Rank   Opponent       Location    Tournament Team?
6   Pittsburgh      Away    Yes
12   Syracuse      Home    Yes
14   Louisville      Away    Yes
15   Notre Dame      Home    Yes
15   Notre Dame      Away    Yes
16   Cincinnati      Home    Yes
21   Connecticut   Home    Yes
21   Connecticut   Away    Yes
22   West Virginia   Home    Yes
30   Villanova      Away    Probable
32   Georgetown      Away    Yes
34   St. John's      Home    Yes
59   Seton Hall      Home    No
59   Seton Hall      Away    No
73   Rutgers      Away    No
95   Providence      Home    No
129   South Florida   Away    No
202   DePaul      Home    No

Six road games against tournament teams.  12 games against KenPom top 35.  9 against top 25.  Mirror opponents were #15 Notre Dame, #21 UConn, #59 Seton Hall.  A top 25 Pomeroy team would be expected to go 10-8 or 9-9 through that schedule, which is exactly what we did.

Looking at 9-9 and the 11th seed in the Big East tournament in a vacuum and saying "MU clearly missed a beat" is doing one of two things (or both):

1.) Promoting an agenda
2.) Telling the world you're a simpleton who can't comprehend facts within context

Which one is it?  Pick one.  Or just admit you're wrong and stop saying it.

[rocky_warrior]

Jamailman - I admire your persistence, but you should really read Ner's signature.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Jamailman - I admire your persistence, but you should really read Ner's signature.

Point taken, that will be my last input on the subject.

[Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup]

Another myth put to rest:

"This team does not deserve a bid!  If we make it to the tournament it's only because of the expanded field/soft bubble/lunar eclipse/Hale Bopp comet's orbital trajectory!"

This team's resume would have deserved a bid in any year prior, period.

Yes. It does NOW.

2 BET wins and a week ago, I would not have said the same thing.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Jamailman - I admire your persistence, but you should really read Ner's signature.

LOL. Nothing stubborn about it.  I get the schedule was tougher, but aren't you arguing that in isolation?  Wasn't every OTHER Big East team's schedule tougher this year as well?  Based on the data you provided...yes.  If that is the case, then we did miss a beat in comparison to the other teams in our conference who handled that tougher schedule better.

I agree with you, the schedule was tougher...our schedule.  But so was everyone else in the conference but you don't seem to take that into effect in your analysis.

[Pakuni]

LOL. Nothing stubborn about it.  I get the schedule was tougher, but aren't you arguing that in isolation?  Wasn't every OTHER Big East team's schedule tougher this year as well?  Based on the data you provided...yes.  If that is the case, then we did miss a beat in comparison to the other teams in our conference who handled that tougher schedule better.

I agree with you, the schedule was tougher...our schedule.  But so was everyone else in the conference but you don't seem to take that into effect in your analysis.

Actually, you're wrong.
The difficulty of each team's schedule would depend on mirror opponents and road vs home opponents. It would be hard to argue, for example, that USF - with DePaul, Providence and Pitt as its mirrors, and Syracuse, Georgetown, ND, Lousville and MU all at home - had a tougher schedule than Marquette.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So what if MU, for the first time, wins three games in the BE tourney?
Have they "missed a beat?"
What if they win a tourney game, compared to last year's first-round exit? What if they win two, something that hasn't happened in eight years? will Chico still be here telling us they missed a beat?

This is such a silly debate because there are many, many ways one can measure a team's success and many, many factors (and yes, schedule is one of them) that play into it. Limiting it to only regular season/conference record makes little sense.
By that logic, the Green Bay Packers "missed a beat" in the 2010 season. After all, their regular season record was better in 2009.

Perhaps we should wait until the season is over before deciding whether or not the team missed a beat this year.

Depends on the criteria, doesn't.  So when Mike Deane's 3rd year we won the CUSA tournament to go to the NCAA tournament...did we miss a beat or were we significantly worse that year than the year prior?

I think Bill Cords and the university determined he missed a beat and kept missing it because of the downward trend in comparison to the conference we were in. 

We can go back and forth all day and each come up with examples supporting the position.  I've told you for years now that I divide the seasons up into pre-conference, conference and postseason.  Postseason is a crapshoot.  Comparing one postseason to another postseason I find to be deeply flawed.  Seedings are different, locations different, who you play, etc.  The conference season, is much more consistent, though even it has it's discrepancies because of mirror games from one year to the next, etc. 

I'm thrilled we're going back to the NCAAs.  I'm not thrilled we finished in the bottom half of the conference and didn't keep up with the rest of the teams...by finishing 9th, it means we did miss a beat and did lose ground to at least 3 if not 5 teams in the past year's comparison.  We finished about where I expected, but that doesn't mean what we expect is what we should achieve or strive for. 

Hoping next year we are back in the upper half of the Big East, that seems an absolute bare minimum requirement for this program.  Do you disagree?

[leever]

I prefer Druid

CBB - I actually thought you were a god!

[MUMac]

Do players sign on to play for coaches and schools or the assistant coach?  Next time their is recruiting press release in this country that is done that shows the player signed with X university to play for the assistant coach, let me know. 

Yeah, good point.  It's obvious that Fulce signed to play for Billy Gillespe at A&M, Buzz at NO and Crean at MU.  It is just a freak of a coincidence that Buzz happenned to be at each of those 3 schools when Fulce signed.   

[Lennys Tap]

Part of not "missing a beat" is keeping up with the rest of the conference.  If they improve, then we need to improve as well.  That's what it means not to miss a beat...literally, that's what it means.  We did miss a beat because we haven't kept up with the Jones this season.  Doesn't mean we won't in the future, but this year we did not.

Of course there are going to be years when you can say, "if only this team played in last year's season because the conference was so much worse".  That's not how life works.  It's certainly not how business works or sports.

So with all due respect, no you didn't put that myth to bed.  A, it's not a myth.  B, it's reality. 

Just to be clear then - TC "missed a beat" (sometimes many.many beats) every year after his peak performance in 2003?

[Pakuni]

Do players sign on to play for coaches and schools or the assistant coach?  Next time their is recruiting press release in this country that is done that shows the player signed with X university to play for the assistant coach, let me know.  

Sigh ...
After Crean left, Otule and Fulce had the same opportunity as Taylor and Williams to ask out of their LOIs and sign elsewhere. They chose instead to reaffirm their commitment to Marquette and its head coach, Buzz Williams.
End of debate.

[MUMac]

Depends on the criteria, doesn't.  So when Mike Deane's 3rd year we won the CUSA tournament to go to the NCAA tournament...did we miss a beat or were we significantly worse that year than the year prior?

I think Bill Cords and the university determined he missed a beat and kept missing it because of the downward trend in comparison to the conference we were in. 

Pretty weak.  The anaology of Deane does not pass the smell test, even for you, when the term "not missing a beat" was made in the context that Buzz had his own players. Deane, the one you so loved and made you despise Crean all because he replaced Deano, was let go because there was concensus among the decision makers that he would definitely take a step, two or more back with his own recruits.  Pretty weak.

[Pakuni]

Pretty weak.  The anaology of Deane does not pass the smell test, even for you, when the term "not missing a beat" was made in the context that Buzz had his own players. Deane, the one you so loved and made you despise Crean all because he replaced Deano, was let go because there was concensus among the decision makers that he would definitely take a step, two or more back with his own recruits.  Pretty weak.

So, you're suggesting Deane's 1999 class (aka Krunti Hester) wasn't going to lead MU to great heights?

[cheebs09]

Sigh ...
After Crean left, Otule and Fulce had the same opportunity as Taylor and Williams to ask out of their LOIs and sign elsewhere. They chose instead to reaffirm their commitment to Marquette and its head coach, Buzz Williams.
End of debate.

Also, I would argue Fulce's history shows that he was coming to MU because of Buzz.

[Lennys Tap]

Most important number in evaluating a season? Big East regular season wins + Big East tournament wins + NCAA tournament wins. We're in year 6 of our Big East experience and our totals are as follows: 10, 11, 14, 14, 13, 11 (and still counting). If we lose tonight and in the 1st round of the NCAA, it's fair to argue that we slipped back to where we were in our first 2 Big East seasons, at least temporarily and given Buzz's two empty classes, I think understandably. Win a couple of more games and you can say that we haven't skipped a beat at all.

[NersEllenson]

Do players sign on to play for coaches and schools or the assistant coach?  Next time their is recruiting press release in this country that is done that shows the player signed with X university to play for the assistant coach, let me know. 

So then why blame Buzz for the transfers of Christopherson and Mbwake??  Clearly they signed with MU before Buzz was ever on staff, correct?

Nonetheless, the fact you are trying to debate this particular point makes you look more ridiculous than usual.  Joe Fulce followed Buzz from A&M to UNO to Marquette - and you think he signed with MU for the sole purpose of playing for Tom Crean??  Just stupid.