UW Better Than UNC

[Tugg Speedman]

Every once a while, posters (mainly Chicos) will take a shot at MU but saying "UW has been better than last 10 years."  The implication is MU has somehow failed because UW is better.

Here are some KenPom Rankings

Year                  UW            MU         UNC
2011 (a/o Mar 3)    7              32           11
2010                    9              33           60
2009                    29            19           1
2008                    5              11           4
2007                    6              38           1
2006                    48            28           8
2005                    16            93           20
2004                    5              80          10
2003                    11            16           59

In order to have better than UW over the last several years, we would have to be better than UNC.

* UW has had 5 better years than UNC (2011, 2010, 2005, 2004, 2003)
* UW had 3 worse years than UNC (2009, 2007, 2006) In 2007 UW was 6 and UNC was 1 ... is that really "worse"?
* UW and UNC had 1 effective tie, 2008, when UW was 5 and UNC was 4

Since 2003 UW had 5 top 10 finishes, UNC had 4.

No shame in saying we were worse than UW.  So was UNC.  So has probably everyone save Duke.  Give them their due, thy are having a great run.

So how come UW's top recruit doesn't have live broadcasts of their announcements?  They are actually located in Wisconsin and have been a better program seasons than UNC.

[wadesworld]

Every once a while, posters (mainly Chicos) will take a shot at MU but saying "UW has been better than last 10 years."  The implication is MU has somehow failed because UW is better.

Here are some KenPom Rankings

Year                  UW            MU         UNC
2011 (a/0 Mar 3)    7              32           11
2010                    9              33           60
2009                    29            19           1
2008                    5              11           4
2007                    6              38           1
2006                    48            28           8
2005                    16            93           20
2004                    5              80          10
2003                    11            16           59

In order to have better than UW over the last several years, we would have to be better than UNC.

* UW has had 5 better years than UNC (2011, 2010, 2005, 2004, 2003)
* UW had 3 worse years than UNC (2009, 2007, 2006) In 2007 UW was 6 and UNC was one ... is that really "worse"?
* UW and UNC had 1 effective tie, 2008, when UW was 5 and UNC was 4

Since 2003 UW had 5 top 10 finishes, UNC had 4.

No shame in saying we were worse than UW.  So was UNC.  So has probalby everyone save Duke.  Give them their due, thy are having a great run.

So how come UW's top recruit doesn't have live broadcasts of their announcements?  They are actually located in Wisconsin and have been a better program than UNC.

Did they make it to the Elite 8 in that run once?  You realize UNC won 2 National Championships in that time, right?  Or that in 03, 04, and 05, all years where UW finished "better" than UNC, Roy Williams wasn't at UNC, right?  So they have really finished higher than them in 1 year, last year, and are currently higher than them but very well may not be when they bow out in the 2nd round like they always do.  Good try though.

[Pakuni]

Yikes.
I can't imagine a single objective observer - including Ken Pomeroy - arguing that Wisconson is a better basketball program than UNC.
Making said argument based exclusively on Pomeroy ratings - while ignoring trivial considerations like Final Fours, championships, players sent to the NBA, national attention, tradition, etc. - is ridiculous.

[Tugg Speedman]

Did they make it to the Elite 8 in that run once?  You realize UNC won 2 National Championships in that time, right?  Or that in 03, 04, and 05, all years where UW finished "better" than UNC, Roy Williams wasn't at UNC, right?  So they have really finished higher than them in 1 year, last year, and are currently higher than them but very well may not be when they bow out in the 2nd round like they always do.  Good try though.

You changed the question to who did better in the NCAA tourney.  That is another way of looking at it.

I answered who had a overall better season over the last several years, regardless of coach, using KenPom data.

I'm trying to show how well UW was doing in the last several years so when Chicos takes a shot at us by saying "UW is better" that by this measure UW was also better than UNC.

[Tugg Speedman]

Yikes.
I can't imagine a single objective observer - including Ken Pomeroy - arguing that Wisconson is a better basketball program than UNC.
Making said argument based exclusively on Pomeroy ratings - while ignoring trivial considerations like Final Fours, championships, players sent to the NBA, national attention, tradition, etc. - is ridiculous.

So the data doesn't give you the conclusion you want so we should keep changing the parameters until it does?

[TallTitan34]

I base a team's success of off NCAA Tournament results.

[Tugg Speedman]

So why get all worked up about our 18 - 12 record?  As long as we get in, this is just a giant preseason.

[Pakuni]

So the data doesn't give you the conclusion you want so we should keep changing the parameters until it does?

So wait .... are you suggesting championships, tournament success, national standing, players in the NBA, etc. are not relevant factors in determining whether one program is better than another?

[texaswarrior74]

You really can't be serious.....Ken Pom numbers determining that UW is a better team than UNC?

Actually Roy was at UNC for 2003-2004 and played with a team mostly inherited from Matt Doherty's failed tenure as HC...  that said the very next year in 2005 he won the National championship with many of those players plus a few of his own like Marvin Williams.

His UNC resume follows:

2003–2004    North Carolina    19–11    8–8    6th    NCAA 2nd Round
2004–2005    North Carolina    33–4    14–2    1st    NCAA Champions
2005–2006    North Carolina    23–8    12–4    2nd    NCAA 2nd Round
2006–2007    North Carolina    31–7    11–5    T-1st    NCAA Elite Eight
2007–2008    North Carolina    36–3    14–2    1st    NCAA Final Four
2008–2009    North Carolina    34–4    13–3    1st    NCAA Champions

UNC  has played with 13 NEW players since the 2009 NC team....no other coach at any major program has had to replace 13 players in two years due to graduation, leaving for draft or transfer. This year's team is very young....two true freshmen are starting along with two sophomores and a junior. The first two people off the bench are another true freshman and sophomore.

2009–2010    North Carolina    20-17    5-11    T-9th    NIT Runner-Up
2010–2011    North Carolina    23-6    13-2    1st

During that tenure I'd put the competition top to bottom, day in and day out in the ACC ahead of the Big 10.....look at the two routs over the Big Ten's best MSU in 2009 including the national championship game if you need more proof. This year was admittedly a down year for the ACC but the historically good teams are very young but talented....look for the league to be much tougher next year.

[MikeyT42]

To me the word program encompasses a team entire body of work, including everything Pakuni mentioned.

Roy Williams > Bo Ryan
UNC History > Wisconsin History
UNC BBall Alums > UW BBall Alums
UNC Championships > UW Championships

UNC passes the eye test a to a greater degree that UW.

like Chicos said, UNC is basketball Blue Blood, while I don't really understand the cliche, I agree with him. UNC is a top tier program.

[4everwarriors]

You cats are are missing the big picture. It's not about the program or school per se. Tokoto and his camp decided that UNC and Roy gives him the best shot at makin' a kazillion dollars in the Association. End of story.

[Tugg Speedman]

I never said "program" that evolved out of later posts.  I compared the final end of seasons rankings and over the last 9 years, on balance UW has had better seasons than UNC.  Not hard to understand because it is straightforward and true.

Yes I think it's true.  And my original point was the next time Chicos wants to take a shot at MU by saying "UW is better" I'm just pointing out that for MU to on balance have had better seasons than UW they would have also had to have better seasons than UNC over the last 9 years.

Better way to argue against his is to say I looked at the past, who will be better going forward?  MU and UNC will be better next year.  If Barnes stays at UNC, they could be preseason #1 next year.  If Taylor come out early at UW, and I think he will/should, UW is not a tourney team next year.

[GGGG]

I never said "program" that evolved out of later posts. 

From your first post in this subject: "They are actually located in Wisconsin and have been a better program than UNC."

[Tugg Speedman]

ok, I fixed it ... now everyone agrees with me?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Every once a while, posters (mainly Chicos) will take a shot at MU but saying "UW has been better than last 10 years."  The implication is MU has somehow failed because UW is better.

No, the implication is not that MU has failed.  That's your defensive Radar going up.  If Miss Texas loses to Miss California, is Miss Texas a failure or is she still a hot ass?

The fact of the matter is, under ANY MEASUREMENT, UW has been more successful than MU since 2000.  That does NOT mean MU has failed....you went there, not me.


Secondly, UW has certainly been more consistent year in and year out than UNC...in that time period.  It all comes down to what you judge....is the NCAA Tournament considered separate..a crapshoot?  Or are you putting all the eggs into that tournament?  That will determine a lot of where this discussion goes.

[79Warrior]

No, the implication is not that MU has failed.  That's your defensive Radar going up.  If Miss Texas loses to Miss California, is Miss Texas a failure or is she still a hot ass?

The fact of the matter is, under ANY MEASUREMENT, UW has been more successful than MU since 2000.  That does NOT mean MU has failed....you went there, not me.

Who cares about UW or UNC. I am far more concerned with MU. Way to many MU fans are hung up on UW. I could care less about UW. they are in the same state, that is about all both schools have in common. Way to much wisconsin obbsession.

And Chicos, I agree with you. No question UW has been more successful for a long time, both head to head historically and in respective league and post season play.

[ChicosBailBonds]

They are a rival, and thus we pay attention to them.  It's never good when your rival is doing better than you, especially when we are spending a crap load more money on basketball than they are and supposedly recruiting better both quantity and quality.  I think it's an important discussion to have and ask why we aren't getting the same ROI.

[Tugg Speedman]

They are a rival, and thus we pay attention to them.  It's never good when your rival is doing better than you, especially when we are spending a crap load more money on basketball than they are and supposedly recruiting better both quantity and quality.  I think it's an important discussion to have and ask why we aren't getting the same ROI.

We had several threads about money.  Functionally their is no way to tell how much money a team with a football program spends on basketball.  They can divide common costs any way they want and they all do it differently.  And they have a lot of overlap.

So we really don't know what UW or most schools actually spend.  We don't know if it is more or less than MU.

[MerrittsMustache]

They are a rival, and thus we pay attention to them.  It's never good when your rival is doing better than you, especially when we are spending a crap load more money on basketball than they are and supposedly recruiting better both quantity and quality.  I think it's an important discussion to have and ask why we aren't getting the same ROI.

There's the type of Chico post that we've all come to love! Let's all please take a step back and not turn this into another "Chicos vs the world" thread. Please...pretty please...with sugar on top.

[MerrittsMustache]

I never said "program" that evolved out of later posts.  I compared the final end of seasons rankings and over the last 9 years, on balance UW has had better seasons than UNC.  Not hard to understand because it is straightforward and true.

If you want to completely discount post-season success, specifically winning National Championships, then you could argue that UW has been better than UNC over the past 9 regular season based on Kenpom figures. However, I don't understand why anyone would want to throw out championships when comparing the success rates of two teams. For example, the Bears had a better regular season record than the Packers this past season. Would you then make the case that the Bears were more successful than the Super Bowl Champions?

[ChicosBailBonds]

There's the type of Chico post that we've all come to love! Let's all please take a step back and not turn this into another "Chicos vs the world" thread. Please...pretty please...with sugar on top.

Thought it was a fair question.  I agree with Another that dollars can be hidden in terms of what goes to football and basketball, etc.  However, they all have their own budgets and budgets can certainly be shared.  All that being said, we do not hide from the fact that we put major dollars into our basketball program...it's something we're proud of.  It shows our level of interest, our commitment to the game.  That's a positive.

It's never going to be an apples to apples comparison...different conferences, different schedules, state school vs private school, urban vs "semi-urban", religious vs public, etc,  I think we all get that, but that doesn't change the reality they have great consistency, tremendous results in a power conference with less talent (quantity and quality).  I hate their style, I think Bo is a prick (but a great coach) but I respect what they do and how they do it. 

I hope we can get to a place where we are that consistent.

[Tugg Speedman]

That's the point of this entire thread ... as I said in the first post ...

No shame in saying we were worse than UW.  So was UNC.  So has probably everyone save Duke.  Give them their due, thy are having a great run.

Chicos, you're taking the negative ... what's wrong with us that we cannot get UW post 2000 results. 
Praise UW, don't bash MU.

[Lennys Tap]

No, the implication is not that MU has failed.  That's your defensive Radar going up.  If Miss Texas loses to Miss California, is Miss Texas a failure or is she still a hot ass?

The fact of the matter is, under ANY MEASUREMENT, UW has been more successful than MU since 2000.  That does NOT mean MU has failed....you went there, not me.

I wish I had $100 for every "UW has been more successful than MU since 2000" post you have made. You state it over and over and over again as if it has been a major controversy on the board. Who exactly are you arguing with? A poll on the subject would be virtually unanimous with the exception of people who just wanted to pull your chain - okay, so maybe a poll would be skewed towards inaccuracy and isn't a good idea. But what say we get off the past and talk about the future.

Your position on Bo Ryan is clear. He's a hall of fame coach who has won and will continue to win at an outstanding rate as long as he coaches. His system has and will continue to thrive and overcome whatever perceived talent deficiencies his players have. Your position on Buzz is much more confusing. You originally considered him to be one of the worst 45 coaches in D1 basketball. Your feelings now are a more mixed, wait and see, so far so "kinda" good, but he's certainly a far cry from St. Bo.

Given all that, I'm willing to offer you the opportunity of a lifetime. Beginning next year, you can have the hall of famer and his team for the remainder of his tenure vs Buzz and the Warriors over that same span. We can bet whatever number you're comfortable with, and at the conclusion of the wager (whenever Bo retires or Buzz is canned or quits, whichever comes first) I'll let YOU determine which program was better over that span and therefore who won the bet.

Pretty sweet, no? You get a guy who will win every year and I get a huge ? coaching in college basketball's toughest conference. AND I let you decide who wins the bet at its conclusion. I'll hang up and wait for your answer.

[brewcity77]

Seriously, this is a complete waste of time. I saw a number of people claiming this while surveying the UW Scout board last night. "Our coach is better, we win more games, we are a better program, JP is an idiot for going there..."

Then one UW fan came out with this gem that really summed it all up, and accurately, at that:

"In the past six years, UNC has won two championships. NATIONAL championships. There really is no comparison."

UW cannot hold UNC's jock. A few seasons of being considered the top 10 by Pomeroy does not put them over the history and tradition that is UNC hoops, a program that wins at least one championship per decade since the 70s. How many Final Fours do the Badgers have since Roy got his three with UNC? How many national titles do they have? I'm sorry, but anyone insinuating this is simply ignorant of this little thing called reality.

UW isn't better than UNC. UW isn't equal to UNC. UW isn't even remotely in UNC's zip code. If they manage to go to 4 final fours in the next 10 years and win two championships, they STILL won't be the equivalent of UNC. If they manage to go to 10 Final Fours and win 5 national championships in the next 25 years, they'll only just be STARTING to get to that level. UNC is a true college basketball blue blood. Like Kansas. Like Kentucky. Like Duke. Like UCLA. Honestly, UW isn't even the equivalent of Indiana. Both Badger fans and Marquette fans may hate to hear it, but schools like that are simply on a different level, and even a decade-long layoff won't be enough to put some formerly crappy school with a pleasant little run like UW has had for the past 15 or so years doesn't change that.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

And my original point was the next time Chicos wants to take a shot at MU by saying "UW is better" I'm just pointing out that for MU to on balance have had better seasons than UW they would have also had to have better seasons than UNC over the last 9 years.

You need to put Chico's on ignore.

It looks like you are just making up stuff to be mad at him about.

UW has been consistently better than MU. It hurts me to say it, but it's true. Oh the horror. I must hate MU, right?

Chico's has said some douchy stuff, but this ain't one of them.