Koenig and Tokoto's UNC Visit

[GGGG]

Yeah why not try to play at UNC?  MU would undoubtedly take tokoto if he wants to transfer like Jamil.

[Freeport Warrior]

If not, how do we change this so the Koenigs and Tokotos want to come to MU and/or UW?

Win.

[Stretchdeltsig]

I think Marquette University is the greatest school for both young men.  As a long time Marquette basketball fan and alum, I have enjoyed watching MU basketball my whole life.  Marquette has always had outstanding blue chip talent and has been one of the country's leading basketball universities for 50 years!  Take a look at the basketball teams and the incredible talent during the past 5 decades.  It is incredible.  I love watching Marquette play because of the talent and the blend of the young players with the veterans.  Marquette plays exciting basketball which is entertaining to watch.  Both Koenig and Tokota would do well by joining the Marquette family and continue its rich basketball heritage.

[4everwarriors]

Yeah, you're right. Why even bother visiting other places. Besides UNC sucks ass.

[Golden Avalanche]

I don't know Roy's approach, but I would have to say playing time is tremendously competitive at UNC.  Hence, does one want to take a big risk at UNC of just being a practice player?

Getting the chance to play at UNC is pretty special. Can't imagine too many turn it down.

Besides, they could always follow the Jamil Wilson path and return home.

[ChicosBailBonds]

And who was MU's coach for the better part of the last decade?  There's the oh-so elusive answer to your question. 

That's exactly right and I stated so much the other day.  Of course, at least we had a Final Four to crow about and a victory at the Kohl Hole by that regime, that's about it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

That's why it doesn't matter if they sign with UNC.  Tokoto will eventually transfer to MU and Koenig will eventually transfer to UW.

And you're basing this on what?  The same conclusion that UW would take Maymon in a heartbeat?  


If you have a chance to play at UNC, Duke, you go and play there.  This isn't hard.  Why live with the regret 20, 30 years down the road that you got a chance to play at the most prestigious basketball schools in the country and didn't see if you measured up?  You take that chance.

[Tugg Speedman]

And you're basing this on what?  The same conclusion that UW would take Maymon in a heartbeat?  

600 D1 transfers this year (source: Jay Bilas).  We have had 7 since Buzz arrived (Roseboro, McMorrow, Mbao, Hazel, Wilson, Maymon and Smith).  Not a knock on Buzz, it is the way the world works now.  This is why we all worry that JJ may transfer.

Koenig is good enough to sit on the end of the bench at UNC.  After he gets essentially zero minutes his freshman year, and they recruit two more PGs more highly rated than him, he'll transfer.  Tokoto is a bit more iffy in transferring but the same idea here as well.

That cat Koenig is ranked 73rd for his class and 16th best guard.  That is not going to cut it at UNC.  That might not cut it at MU (he is ranked about where Junior was ranked).

[Lennys Tap]

If you have a chance to play at UNC, Duke, you go and play there.  This isn't hard.  Why live with the regret 20, 30 years down the road that you got a chance to play at the most prestigious basketball schools in the country and didn't see if you measured up?  You take that chance.

If "this isn't hard" what does "this" say about Cody Zellar? That he's afraid to see if he measured up? And how will he live with the regret 20 or 30 years hence?

[texaswarrior74]

"....After he gets essentially zero minutes his freshman year, and they recruit two more PGs more highly rated than him, he'll transfer."

You obviously don't follow UNC basketball very closely.

This is actually what happens regularly at Duke.....not at UNC.....Koenig will get plenty of PT....with the secondary break offense they run, Roy liberally substitutes....many times guys coming off the bench get more PT than the person who started. When they won the NCs in 2005 and 2009 there was little to no drop off between the starters and guys off the bench....in fact key contributors in the 2009 FF came off the bench.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If "this isn't hard" what does "this" say about Cody Zellar? That he's afraid to see if he measured up? And how will he live with the regret 20 or 30 years hence?

It says he's from Indiana and going to one of the top 5 programs of all-time.  Are you really comparing MU to IU all-time.  Really?  I mean, really?  Please.

MU has a great program and a lot to be proud of, but they are not in the same breath.  It's one thing to pick between MU and UNC.  Quite another when you're picking one top 5 all-time program vs another...UCLA, IU, UK, KU, UNC, DUKE (yes, I realize that's 6 programs, but those are the blue bloods of college hoops).

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28116552/ns/sports-college_basketball/

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/1004/cbe1.pdf

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8212

[Lennys Tap]

It says he's from Indiana and going to one of the top 5 programs of all-time.  Are you really comparing MU to IU all-time.  Really?  I mean, really?  Please.

MU has a great program and a lot to be proud of, but they are not in the same breath.  It's one thing to pick between MU and UNC.  Quite another when you're picking one top 5 all-time program vs another...UCLA, IU, UK, KU, UNC, DUKE (yes, I realize that's 6 programs, but those are the blue bloods of college hoops).

No, I wasn't comparing MU to IU or anyone else. You said that anyone who passed an offer from UNC or Duke would miss out on a chance to be measured against the best and would regret it down the line. Are you really suggesting that Cody Zellar will be "measured against the best" next year at Indiana? Really? No, really? Please. Bob Knight is no longer at Indiana. The Hoosiers are light years away from UNC and Duke. Maybe their unholy alliance with Indiana Elite will save them but for now they're just another team.

[Fullodds]

I heard Kirk Hinrich said he reminds him of Bobby Frasor.

[🏀]

I heard Kirk Hinrich said he reminds him of Bobby Frasor.

Wow, Bobby Frasor!

Didn't TC technically pass on him for DJ? Not knocking TC, just trying to recall correctly.

Frasor wanted to be a PG, but we had DJ is the mix. Frasor was offered the 2, but went to UNC?

[4everwarriors]

Frasor bent over and blew a kiss good-bye to Crean for Carolina. Clearly 'member Tommy draggin' him to Miller Park. Probably had his good friend and confidant, Mike Maddox, show the kid around.

[Pakuni]

Wow, Bobby Frasor!

Didn't TC technically pass on him for DJ? Not knocking TC, just trying to recall correctly.

Frasor wanted to be a PG, but we had DJ is the mix. Frasor was offered the 2, but went to UNC?

No, as I remember it, TC wanted DJ, Frasor and Wes. When Frasor chose UNC, MU was fortunate to get Jerel as Plan B.
Second time TC lucked into landed a much better player when his first choice went elsewhere (see: Desmon Farmer).

[Fullodds]

Frasor went crazy at a summer game in Houston in front of Roy.  Roy offered.  Frasor picked UNC over Stanford.  MU was third.  It all worked out well for everyone. 

My point of the Frasor comment was that Roy told Frasor that he reminded him of Hinrich.

[BCHoopster]

Lets get back to Tokoto, I heard a rumor, just a rumor, that Buzz took the parents around the Al and school and was
chewing and spitting the whole time and Mrs. T, thought that was disgusting, and MU is not on the list anymore.  Fact
or Fiction, time will tell???

[MUfan12]

Lets get back to Tokoto, I heard a rumor, just a rumor, that Buzz took the parents around the Al and school and was
chewing and spitting the whole time and Mrs. T, thought that was disgusting, and MU is not on the list anymore.  Fact
or Fiction, time will tell???

Forgot the teal?

Actually have heard the opposite, that JP's mom really likes Buzz.

[wadesworld]

600 D1 transfers this year (source: Jay Bilas).  We have had 7 since Buzz arrived (Roseboro, McMorrow, Mbao, Hazel, Wilson, Maymon and Smith).  Not a knock on Buzz, it is the way the world works now.  This is why we all worry that JJ may transfer.

Koenig is good enough to sit on the end of the bench at UNC.  After he gets essentially zero minutes his freshman year, and they recruit two more PGs more highly rated than him, he'll transfer.  Tokoto is a bit more iffy in transferring but the same idea here as well.

That cat Koenig is ranked 73rd for his class and 16th best guard.  That is not going to cut it at UNC.  That might not cut it at MU (he is ranked about where Junior was ranked).

LOL.  I'll take the opinion of a Hall of Fame, 2 time National Champion coach over yours any day of the week.  The fact that he doesn't offer recruits until they are juniors and he called at midnight of Tokoto's first day that he possibly could and broke that rule to offer Koenig should paint a pretty clear picture of what Roy thinks of these two guys.  Again, call me crazy, but I'll take Ol' Roy's opinion over yours.

And as far as going to UNC/Duke/wherever and competing for playing time vs. going somewhere where you would be guaranteed to see starter minutes from day one, it all depends on the person.  As a coach I would want the guys who wanted to fight for their minutes and compete for them.  As a player I would also want to fight for my minutes and have to earn them.  There is no way to get better than to play against the best every day in practice.  The games are not where you improve as a player, so playing in a tough conference isn't really all that important in terms of player development.  Practice is where players are made.  If your goal is to become the best player you possibly can and give yourself a chance to go to the NBA then your best rout is to go where the best coaching is first and foremost and then where the rest of the talent is going so that you can improve your game as much as possible.  I get that SOME kids don't want this and want the easy way out, but if you aren't being pushed then are you really going to improve that much?  If I was a 17 year old star basketball player looking at where to go to school and thinking about my NBA chances I'm going to a coach who has a track record of getting guys there and to a place that has guys that will soon be there already in their program.  If I were an incoming freshman small forward next year and Harrison Barns told me he'd be back for his sophomore year I'd be at UNC in a second.  Get to guard a future lottery pick every day in practice.  Go into your sophomore year as the starter and having that experience for every day for a full year (other than the 30-some gamedays that you don't have a full-out practice) and those games suddenly seem easy, like a break from guarding the best player at your position.

[BCHoopster]

Forgot the teal?

Actually have heard the opposite, that JP's mom really likes Buzz.

People do change there opinions, I am just telling you what I heard, not sure if it is
true or not, you do not like the color teal, that is fine, maybe you like the weather here?

[ChicosBailBonds]

No, as I remember it, TC wanted DJ, Frasor and Wes. When Frasor chose UNC, MU was fortunate to get Jerel as Plan B.
Second time TC lucked into landed a much better player when his first choice went elsewhere (see: Desmon Farmer).

Odd, since you're such an RSCI kind of guy.  Frasor was ranked 31st overall.  McNeal 57th.  Frasor would have been the highest MU recruit in two decades, but I'm sure you knew that already.  Also, we don't know what he would have done at MU...different environment, different opportunities...but I'm sure you knew that already.

But hey, good thing he lucked into going to UNC instead.

http://home.roadrunner.com/~rsci/RSCI_100_Final_2005.htm

[Tugg Speedman]

LOL.  I'll take the opinion of a Hall of Fame, 2 time National Champion coach over yours any day of the week.  The fact that he doesn't offer recruits until they are juniors and he called at midnight of Tokoto's first day that he possibly could and broke that rule to offer Koenig should paint a pretty clear picture of what Roy thinks of these two guys.  Again, call me crazy, but I'll take Ol' Roy's opinion over yours.

So now we are all drinking the UNC/Duke cool-aid.  Because Roy taps the kid on the shoulder, he's great.

Never mind he was ranked 73rd and the 16th best Guard (lower than Junior).  Now that Roy offered, and only because Roy offered, he'll move into the top 10 and top 3 guard.

Trust Roy?  He has 7 McDonald's AA and 5 other top 50 guys.  And what has he done with this?  NIT and #19.  Anybody else would be run out of town wasting this much talent.

Last week I had this thread

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24385.0

McDonald's team selection is flawed
Comment Print Email Share
By Doug Gottlieb
February 12, 2011

http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog?name=ncbexperts&id=6115872

Let me start with a question: Are McDonald's All-Americans chosen purely based on their own ability and performance, or are they picked based on whether or not they sign with an A-list school?

I bring this up because the McDonald's selection committee has done it again, churning out several curious selections and even more curious omissions this year. To be blunt, it is a joke. Need further proof? Look at the North Carolina Tar Heels. How is it possible that Roy Williams could coach a team loaded with seven Mickey D's All-Americans last season and still not make the NCAA tournament? He'd have to be the worst coach of all time to underproduce with a squad that was truly that talented, but Williams' two national titles and career winning percentage of .800 suggest that the man knows how to coach.

---

The story goes on to say that anybody UNC/Duke offers shoot up the ranking and get selected McDoanld's AA just because who they sign with and not what they do.

---

A Big East coach chimed in as well: "Quinn Cook ahead of Josiah Turner is a farce. Marshall Plumlee, too. This Duke bias thing has got to stop. My goodness, Cook is a good player, Marshall too, but there is not a soul alive who thinks they are players who will have a profound impact on a program. Jabari Brown will at Oregon, Josiah Turner will at Arizona and Dorian Finney-Smith will at Virginia Tech. If Finney-Smith signed at Duke, he'd be in the game, and that is flat-out wrong."

---
I read somewhere else that Marshall Plumlee is so bad that Duke is considering red-shirting him next year.  many don't even think he's a top 100 guy.  But when your last name is Plumlee and Duke signs you, you get a McDonald's AA invite.

---
Anyone remember Harrison Barnes being a pre-season first team all-American?  How's that working out?  That only happened because he wears a UNC uniform and that is why they got Barnes so wrong.  (He's a good player but no where near a first team AA this year.  Might not even be a one-and-done player either.)

---

In the abstract and everyone agrees Duke/UNC kids get overvalued because they are Duke/UNC kids.  Put a name on it like Bronson Koenig, and now it's different.  Their is no UNC bias and this kid is the second coming of Kirk Hinrick.  Roy said so!!!

Let's check back in a year, and then again in two years to see if the offer still stands and he wows anyone beyond the jock sniffers of Duke/UNC.

Look I hope I'm wrong, but I not impressed that Roy say this kid when watching JP and broke his sophomore rule and somehow no one else thought this highly of him.

Roy doesn't find diamonds in the rough.  Roy cherry picks the best.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You forgot the part about Roy Williams winning two national titles in the last six years, plus 7 Final Fours, and two Elite Eights to go along with a bunch of other NCAA appearances (Sweet 16's, etc).

His 632 Wins and 161 Losses might be important as well.  Something tells me recruits might be interested in that resume.

[Tugg Speedman]

Nice stats, all irrelevant

Roy gets to cherry pick the very best.  That is why he is successful.

Koenig is not consider among the best of the 2013 class (do I have to wrote #73 again???).  Roy is saying he found a diamond in the rough.

What's Roy record picking relatively unknown kids and turning them into stars?  I don't think he has one as he doesn't have to do this.

Alright, I'll say it ... is Roy using Koenig to sign Tokoto?  Once Tokoto is signed, will Koenig quietly fall away?  Roy has two years to make him go away.