I know why everyone is so upset with this team.

[Tugg Speedman]

Thinking out loud here ....

We have played 10 currently ranked teams in the last 16.  (and I noted before, for comparison, Wisconsin played 2 ranked teams in the last 16).

Consequently, we are on national TV virtually every game.  What was the last game that was not nationally televised?  I cannot remember.

Would it be better if MU was only televised nationally every third or fourth game.  Then guys like Chicos (and me) would only see a fraction of the games and have a different prospective  AND ... less time invested in this team and not so emotional.

Are we a victim of our success and BE schedule?

[🏀]

People are upset because that's all they can be.

I'm much happier being .500 in the Big East and playing against 10 currently ranked teams then losing to Memphis, DePaul, Charlotte, UAB, TCU, & SLU like we did in '04-'05 to go 7-9 in conference.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thinking out loud here ....

We have played 10 currently ranked teams in the last 16.  (and I noted before, for comparison, Wisconsin played 2 ranked teams in the last 16).

Consequently, we are on national TV virtually every game.  What was the last game that was not nationally televised?  I cannot remember.

Would it be better if MU was only televised nationally every third or fourth game.  Then guys like Chicos (and me) would only see a fraction of the games and have a different prospective  AND ... less time invested in this team and not so emotional.

Are we a victim of our success and BE schedule?

No, I don't think it's that at all.  I think there is talent on this team and people are frustrated watching us play wonderful basketball for 32 minutes or 35 minutes or 37 minutes but having periods in the game it all goes to hell.  The worst part, WE ALL KNOW IT"S COMING BEFORE IT EVEN HAPPENS. 

The frustration is knowing the talent is there, the willingness is there, the effort is there, the results are NOT there.  That's the frustration.

[Nukem2]

Lets face it, this team has only one guy ion his 3rd year (discouting Fulce du to injuries).  The 10 losses have been to the following teams as ranked by Pomeroy:

3-Duke
5-Pitt
6-UW
13-Nova
14-G-Town
17-ND
21-Ville
23-UConn
26-Vandy
48-Gonzaga

8 games have been on the road.  

[Hards Alumni]

No, I don't think it's that at all.  I think there is talent on this team and people are frustrated watching us play wonderful basketball for 32 minutes or 35 minutes or 37 minutes but having periods in the game it all goes to hell.  The worst part, WE ALL KNOW IT"S COMING BEFORE IT EVEN HAPPENS. 

The frustration is knowing the talent is there, the willingness is there, the effort is there, the results are NOT there.  That's the frustration.

This I can agree with.

[Tugg Speedman]

The 10 losses have been to the following teams as ranked by Pomeroy:

3-Duke
5-Pitt
6-UW
13-Nova
14-G-Town
17-ND
21-Ville
23-UConn
26-Vandy
48-Gonzaga

8 games have been on the road.  

All except Vandy Gonzaga is ranked this week.

[Hards Alumni]

All except Vandy is ranked this week.

Vandy is ranked... and they will be ranked higher on monday.

[🏀]

Vandy is ranked... and they will be ranked higher on monday.

He meant Zaga.

[Hards Alumni]

He meant Zaga.

But... but... I caught him!!!

[🏀]

But... but... I caught him!!!

I'm proud of you.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I guess I don't understand the Wisconsin comparison, either.  To date, they have still played a tougher schedule then we have per Ken Pom.  People get caught up in the AP ranking numbers, but overall to date their schedule has been ranked tougher.  Their games are also on national tv on the Big Ten Network. 

[HoopsMalone]

I think the hardest part is that most of us had unrealistic expectations for this team.  

Fulce-  most thought he would be the guy he was last Feb.  We could have really  used his experience against a team like Gonzaga early.  Hopefully he finishes strong as a senior.

Blue-  Most thought he would put it together in the Big East and break players down off the dribble.  He has a long way to go on offense.

Cadougan- Most thought we were getting Mark Jackson reincarnated.

DJO-  slow start, but has turned into the player we thought.

Williams/Jones/Smith- many thought one of these guys would at least give us spot minutes.


There are some bright spots like Gardner, Otule, and Crowder, but this team just does not have the firepower to keep up with some teams this year.  And they have not played together long enough to play strong team defense.  

There are a variety of reasons to be frustrated as a fan, but I think a lot of it comes from unrealistic expectations on certain players.  I think we may see Fulce step up and come up with some big hustle plays and hopefully be the difference in beating Cincy and SJU.  But I don't see Cadougan or Blue giving any more than they have given this year.

[mu_hilltopper]

It's like we're the Washington Generals for ESPN.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think the hardest part is that most of us had unrealistic expectations for this team.  

Fulce-  most thought he would be the guy he was last Feb.  We could have really  used his experience against a team like Gonzaga early.  Hopefully he finishes strong as a senior.

Blue-  Most thought he would put it together in the Big East and break players down off the dribble.  He has a long way to go on offense.

Cadougan- Most thought we were getting Mark Jackson reincarnated.

DJO-  slow start, but has turned into the player we thought.

Williams/Jones/Smith- many thought one of these guys would at least give us spot minutes.


There are some bright spots like Gardner, Otule, and Crowder, but this team just does not have the firepower to keep up with some teams this year.  And they have not played together long enough to play strong team defense.  

There are a variety of reasons to be frustrated as a fan, but I think a lot of it comes from unrealistic expectations on certain players.  I think we may see Fulce step up and come up with some big hustle plays and hopefully be the difference in beating Cincy and SJU.  But I don't see Cadougan or Blue giving any more than they have given this year.

The irony is that those of us who didn't have quite those high of expectations are called haters (note, I still said MU would make the NCAAs in preseason and still believe they will, but warned many folks here that Vander was going to need some time).

My question is, why did so many people, in your opinion, have unrealistic expectations?

I have some theories, and they start every year with the little stars next to the recruits we sign.  Then we get the reports from the off season workouts that player X and player Y are now totally ripped and playing incredible basketball, etc, etc.  When others here questioned who was going to be the PG, we were told to shut up.  When some folks here asked why Buzz's defense has struggled year in and year out, regardless of where he has coached...

You get the idea.  So why the unrealistic expectations?

[Tugg Speedman]

I guess I don't understand the Wisconsin comparison, either.  To date, they have still played a tougher schedule then we have per Ken Pom.  People get caught up in the AP ranking numbers, but overall to date their schedule has been ranked tougher.  Their games are also on national tv on the Big Ten Network. 

That's not what I said and you know it.  I said their last 16 games (which goes back to the Wisconsin game) and includes 12 conference games.  

Since MU got into conference play, their have an incredibly difficult schedule.  And the last few non-conference games includes Vandy and Wisc.

I used Wisconsin for comparison purposes so one can see how many ranked teams nonBE teams have played in the last two months.  I could have picked Duke as they are about the same.

IF MU was in the B12 or ACC this year, they would have a much easier schedule and be in 3 or 4 fourth place and probably ranked.

[Lennys Tap]

My question is, why did so many people, in your opinion, have unrealistic expectations?

I agree that you are someone who sets reasonable expectations. Two years ago you set them at 9-9 in conference and we finished 12-6. Had DJ not been hurt 14-4 would have been likely. Last year you again set expectations fairly (especially without Junior or Maymon) at 12th in the BEast and again we blew them away, finished 5th and got a 6 seed in the tournament. After Buzz demolished fair expectations two years in a row is it any secret why many MU fans would expect the projections of 8-10th place to be surpassed again? People get spoiled and develop a feeling of entitlement. As simple as it is unfair.

The real irony is how critical you've been about the guy who's blown away your fair and balanced expectations in two seasons and met them in his third. Any ideas as to why that is?

[ChicosBailBonds]

That's not what I said and you know it.  I said their last 16 games (which goes back to the Wisconsin game) and includes 12 conference games.  

Since MU got into conference play, their have an incredibly difficult schedule.  And the last few non-conference games includes Vandy and Wisc.

I used Wisconsin for comparison purposes so one can see how many ranked teams nonBE teams have played in the last two months.  I could have picked Duke as they are about the same.

IF MU was in the B12 or ACC this year, they would have a much easier schedule and be in 3 or 4 fourth place and probably ranked.

Got it, sorry if I misunderstood.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The real irony is how critical you've been about the guy who's blown away your fair and balanced expectations in two seasons and met them in his third. Any ideas as to why that is?

I didn't realize just how good Crean's leftover players were that would carry Buzz.  Now with only Buzz's players it seems I have it locked in.     It's a joke, it's a joke.

Let's flip the question....after hearing for the last three years how terrible of a coach we used to have and how terrible of a recruiter he was, then to hear we have more top 100 RSCI players on the roster than EVER before, how much better of a coach we have now (your words) why are we struggling to finish middle of the pack when we always did better with the awful guy prior?  Maybe the expectations were set by you and others that were based on some bias...that Coach TC sucked balls and Coach BW is so great how could he ever finish in the lower half of the Big East, something we've never done before.  Just a guess...as good as any.  Funny how these things have a way of working both ways...isn't?

[brewcity77]

I didn't realize just how good Crean's leftover players were that would carry Buzz.  Now with only Buzz's players it seems I have it locked in.     It's a joke, it's a joke.

Let's flip the question....after hearing for the last three years how terrible of a coach we used to have and how terrible of a recruiter he was, then to hear we have more top 100 RSCI players on the roster than EVER before, how much better of a coach we have now (your words) why are we struggling to finish middle of the pack when we always did better with the awful guy prior?  Maybe the expectations were set by you and others that were based on some bias...that Coach TC sucked balls and Coach BW is so great how could he ever finish in the lower half of the Big East, something we've never done before.  Just a guess...as good as any.  Funny how these things have a way of working both ways...isn't?

Why is this a Buzz vs TC argument? 

Seriously, Chicos, ease up a bit. You complain that every topic on this site turns into a TC bash, but using this thread as an example, you are the only one driving towards TC as a point of interest. Lennys specifically focused on the years under Buzz and didn't at all lead the conversation towards Crean. Your response pretty much dove head first into the old saw of Buzz vs TC. Give it a rest. Threads won't turn into Crean-bashing sessions if you don't bring Crean into the debate.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why is this a Buzz vs TC argument?  

Seriously, Chicos, ease up a bit. You complain that every topic on this site turns into a TC bash, but using this thread as an example, you are the only one driving towards TC as a point of interest. Lennys specifically focused on the years under Buzz and didn't at all lead the conversation towards Crean. Your response pretty much dove head first into the old saw of Buzz vs TC. Give it a rest. Threads won't turn into Crean-bashing sessions if you don't bring Crean into the debate.

I assume you will insert that same sentence of condemnation toward these posters in these posts for bringing up that argument just in the last few days.

I only ask for consistency. If you're going to call someone out, then you should call others out, especially those that are far greater at inserting said person into these threads.  I don't think I'm asking for anything outlandish. 9 threads with said coach, I inserted him into 1 while someone else did in the others.  I'll bet someone thinks 1 of 9 is VAST MAJORITY.   

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24416.msg271536#msg271536

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24314.msg270271#msg270271

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24298.msg270269#msg270269

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24298.msg270365#msg270365

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24355.msg270827#msg270827

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24348.msg270764#msg270764

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24354.msg270841#msg270841

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24329.msg270416#msg270416

[🏀]

Why is this a Buzz vs TC argument? 

Seriously, Chicos, ease up a bit. You complain that every topic on this site turns into a TC bash, but using this thread as an example, you are the only one driving towards TC as a point of interest. Lennys specifically focused on the years under Buzz and didn't at all lead the conversation towards Crean. Your response pretty much dove head first into the old saw of Buzz vs TC. Give it a rest. Threads won't turn into Crean-bashing sessions if you don't bring Crean into the debate.

Chicos doesn't realize that a lot of his thin-veiled insults at the program often point back to TC. After they point back to TC and someone calls him out he has nothing to do with it, but he must come and defend TC.

But he never starts it.

[brewcity77]

I assume you will insert that same sentence of condemnation toward these posters in these posts for bringing up that argument just in the last few days.

I only ask for consistency. If you're going to call someone out, then you should call others out, especially those that are far greater at inserting said person into these threads.  I don't think I'm asking for anything outlandish. 9 threads with said coach, I inserted him into 1 while someone else did in the others.  I'll bet someone thinks 1 of 9 is VAST MAJORITY.   

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24416.msg271536#msg271536

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24314.msg270271#msg270271

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24298.msg270269#msg270269

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24298.msg270365#msg270365

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24355.msg270827#msg270827

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24348.msg270764#msg270764

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24354.msg270841#msg270841

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24329.msg270416#msg270416

Okay, I'll go through them all...

1) Your reference
2) While the comparison is there, I'm specifically talking about threads shifting gears to TC. Hard to argue that when the only person mentioning him is the thread-starter.
3) Avalanche is talking about the time when Crean left and Buzz arrived, not trying to start a comparison of the two.
4)  Same thread as #3, and only referencing what was said in #3; don't get where you're going with this.
5) Agreed completely, no reason at all for Navin to bring up Crean or Indiana, though my guess is he did it specifically to take a jab at you.
6) Disagree, this is simply referencing recruiting battles we lost. Yes, Crean was involved, but it's not like tower is trying to use Crean to digress.
7) Again, no reason for Navin to bring up Crean.
8) Tower's not trying to start a TC argument, just using TC as a point of reference in terms of time. If a new problem cropped up in 2009 and was still going in 2014, I imagine he'd have said "This problem goes back to Buzz's early days".

So for the most part, you singled out two users in your eight examples, with cameos by Avalanche and Lennys. Maybe it's personal opinion, but I don't think either Avalanche or tower are trying to turn the thread towards Crean. And Lennys is only responding to Avalanche by saying that not everyone was against Crean. I will agree that Navin is bashing Crean, which wasn't really called for in either thread. But in terms of the thread as a whole, he wasn't trying to turn Crean into a point of interest, rather just taking jabs where he could. I'll agree that it's kind of a prick move, but it's not a change of topic. You specifically said "Let's flip the question..." and then tried to turn this thread into Buzz vs TC. I don't think I'm stating anything outlandish by pointing out that what you do here and what took place in the other examples is vastly different.

[Lennys Tap]

Okay, I'll go through them all...

1) Your reference
2) While the comparison is there, I'm specifically talking about threads shifting gears to TC. Hard to argue that when the only person mentioning him is the thread-starter.
3) Avalanche is talking about the time when Crean left and Buzz arrived, not trying to start a comparison of the two.
4)  Same thread as #3, and only referencing what was said in #3; don't get where you're going with this.
5) Agreed completely, no reason at all for Navin to bring up Crean or Indiana, though my guess is he did it specifically to take a jab at you.
6) Disagree, this is simply referencing recruiting battles we lost. Yes, Crean was involved, but it's not like tower is trying to use Crean to digress.
7) Again, no reason for Navin to bring up Crean.
8) Tower's not trying to start a TC argument, just using TC as a point of reference in terms of time. If a new problem cropped up in 2009 and was still going in 2014, I imagine he'd have said "This problem goes back to Buzz's early days".

So for the most part, you singled out two users in your eight examples, with cameos by Avalanche and Lennys. Maybe it's personal opinion, but I don't think either Avalanche or tower are trying to turn the thread towards Crean. And Lennys is only responding to Avalanche by saying that not everyone was against Crean. I will agree that Navin is bashing Crean, which wasn't really called for in either thread. But in terms of the thread as a whole, he wasn't trying to turn Crean into a point of interest, rather just taking jabs where he could. I'll agree that it's kind of a prick move, but it's not a change of topic. You specifically said "Let's flip the question..." and then tried to turn this thread into Buzz vs TC. I don't think I'm stating anything outlandish by pointing out that what you do here and what took place in the other examples is vastly different.

So the vast majority of Chico's examples are inappropriate. I'm shocked.

[MUBurrow]

without reading this when things started getting dirty - cuz i dont really give a damn - i think that the unfairly high expectations set for Vander is the number one reason for the remarkably high expectations of the team.

I think Vander was expected to solve a lot of the problems that have arisen this season, including defense and point guard responsibilities (even if we didnt expect him to PLAY the 1, I think that many just sort of assumed he would make distribution issues go away)  Fact is, he is a freshman and needs time to develop.  His athleticism is there and so are the skills, but he's not ready to carry the traditionally veteran roles of ball possession/care/distribution and defensive identity.

[Marquette84]

without reading this when things started getting dirty - cuz i dont really give a damn - i think that the unfairly high expectations set for Vander is the number one reason for the remarkably high expectations of the team.

I think Vander was expected to solve a lot of the problems that have arisen this season, including defense and point guard responsibilities (even if we didnt expect him to PLAY the 1, I think that many just sort of assumed he would make distribution issues go away)  Fact is, he is a freshman and needs time to develop.  His athleticism is there and so are the skills, but he's not ready to carry the traditionally veteran roles of ball possession/care/distribution and defensive identity.

Unfair?

How can you have "unfairly" high expectations for a guy who was hyped as the best freshman we've recruited since Doc Rivers and Kerry Trotter?  A guy who was mentioned in the same breath as Joe Wolf and Caron Butler.  Go back to the threads from the time of his recruitment and commitment.  He was universally hailed as the type of player that we have not landed in decades and evidence of our significantly improved recruiting.  Some even went so far as to call him a one-and-done player.

Frankly, the expectations of some here was that he would be the starter on Day 1, and many others thought he'd be starting by the time conference play rolled around.

I think fair is to say that he should be equal to slightly better than the Amigos, Hayward, Diener, Pieper, Novak, Key, Mac, Logerman, Eford, Henry, etc. etc. etc.