Vander

[NavinRJohnson]

Kid needs some confidence. May not happen this year, but once he gets it, he will be a great player.

[Tugg Speedman]

Again, I don't think anyone is writing Vander off...by any means.  

Warriors65 is writing him off

[avid1010]

Blue's outside shot has been screwed up since his Senior year of high school.   He's going to have to work extremely hard over the summer to get it straightened out.

Not sure if it's true or not, but I heard at school today from someone who would know that Blue has expressed a strong desire to play some PG next season.

Warriors65 is writing him off

His thoughts are similar to mine, yet I feel like Vander is going to be a great player for MU in the future...just not really seeing it this year on any kind of a consistent basis.

[Tugg Speedman]

Compare Vander to BYU's Jimmer Fredette in his Freshman Year.

Other than FT%, Vander's numbers look a lot like Jimmer's.  

I'm sure the BYU message boards "experts" were complaining about Jimmer 3 years ago.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=jimmer-fredette&jimmer-fredette=2007-2008&p1=vander-blue

Add:

Jimmer's Freshman year he played 647 minutes (18.5/game).  In that time he took 128 3pt ATT and 204 FG ATT.  That totals 332 shots or one every 116 seconds.  

He was a reserve playing 18.5 minutes a game.  Did he shoot every other possession, or 50% of the BYU's possessions, when he was on the floor?

Unbelievable.

[mu-rara]

I'm not looking for a John Wall....that's a dumb comparison.  No one is saying Buzz should have a Wade every year...I don't know where you're pulling that out of.  

I don't think it's normal that a coach go three years without recruiting a single freshman that contributes offensively in the freshman year.  When TC had the three amigos come in, he gave them serious focus and PT from day one.  I'm just questioning if some coaches strategically give freshmen more time/focus than Buzz...not even saying one way is right/wrong.  For the same reason that some first year brokers out produce their seniors, for the same reason some first year salesmen crush their quota, for the reason that most coaches recruit a at least one freshman in three years that has an offensive impact on their team.  

First year brokers that outproduce veterans, first year salespeople who crush it  =  John Wall.... They are very hard to find. 

Vander sees the floor because he plays defense.  That was always what was going to get him on the floor.  Vander will become a better offensive player.  He has shown flashes getting to the hole.  He is a hard worker...he'll develop a shot. 

[El Duderino]

Blue's outside shot has been screwed up since his Senior year of high school.   He's going to have to work extremely hard over the summer to get it straightened out.

Not sure if it's true or not, but I heard at school today from someone who would know that Blue has expressed a strong desire to play some PG next season.

1. Vander just has terrible shooting mechanics and that's not something that can be quickly fixed on the fly during a season where practice time is more limited to team practicing vs individual coaching. He's going to have to spend a lot of time in the summer fixing his jumper in the gym via tons of shot taking.

2. His lack of a jump shot also hurts his ability to penetrate the paint. Big East coaches have scouting reports for each MU player and they can see that Vander can't shoot well from the perimeter, thus defenders can sag off him which in turn makes it tougher for Vander to beat defenders off the dribble.

3. Vander may want to play some PG, but right now at least, he doesn't have the top notch ball handling abilities needed to play the point effectively. Hell, Buycks isn't a great ball handler either, but he's better at it than Vander and Buycks has turnover issues of his own.

As others mentioned, tons of highly recruited freshman each year come on to college teams expecting to have huge impacts right away, but for various reasons, struggle to be more than just a role player. Vander isn't alone in that. In fact, it's the freshman who play great right away that are the more exceptions, not the norm. Fans though get so wrapped up in the whole recruiting process that if they see a kid ranked in the top 50-75, many of these fans then just expect near immediate high level production. When the production instead is fairly limited, out comes the what the hell is wrong talk.

Freshman guards who can't shoot well are always going to be limited offensively.

[Marquette84]

The issues with Vander stem from the fact that he was hyped as the best HS player we've had in years. Better than the Amigos. Better than Diener. Better than Hayward.  Better than DJO and Buycks.  Better than Merritt, Blankson, Logterman, Miller, Wardle, Henry, etc. etc. etc.

At the time he signed, Rosiak reported he was the highest rated player since the McGuire era--eventually correcting himself and admitting that Trotter and Rivers were higher. But that gives you some idea of what people thought about Blue when he signed.

People always say "well, you can't compare an ordinary freshman to the Amigos--they were special players".  Well, Vander was supposed to be just as special, if not more so.  People thought he'd start from day one. 

He might get there someday, and probably will eventually. Where I think there's disappointment is that he isn't there yet, and its taking him longer than some other first year players to find his groove.

[bamamarquettefan]

He's a joke on offense, and can't guard anybody on d. He doesn't deserve any minutes. Bring on Jamail Jones

He has been great defensively.  Not only does he steal the ball three times as often as DJO, but he has been a lock down defender.  Agree with those who say we need at least a little offense from him, but he has been one of the few brightspots in many of the defensive struggles.

[2012 Warrior]

Let's not forget that blue has to SoG's for a reason.  It takes a cockiness to shoot threes constantly cause he is going to make one, that may be important.

watching him in warm-ups, yea his shot looks McGuire bad, but he makes them.  The kid needs to shoot just like DJO needed to shoot (ok not the same).

[tower912]

I hate to bring it up, but how often does our rival to the west, who most concede is a very good coach, get an impact freshman?   Gasser is getting minutes by default, but other than a couple of good games, he hasn't done a lot.   Wasn't MU basketball's patron saint that said something along the lines of....the best thing about freshman is that they become sophomores?     Would you rather have Calipari here who magically gets impact freshman only to see them leave for the league after a year?     Blue's numbers compare to Fredette's and Walker's as freshmen.    And yet some want to use him as evidence that Buzz sucks.    Sounds like some just have an agenda.     The kid will be fine.   

[Mr. Nielsen]

Air balls a 3, dribbles to the baseline and throws the pass away, throughs up some crazy looking shot under the basket.

Vander Blue needs the game to just come to him, it's like he is pressing out on the floor.

[Tugg Speedman]

Compare Vander to Harrison Barnes, the #1 high school player last year.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p1=vander-blue&p2=jimmer-fredette&p3=harrison-barnes&remove=jimmer-fredette

Barnes has similar numbers to VB.  Both are doing better than last year Parade AA Fab Melo of Syracuse (who looked simply awful yesterday).

In previous posts, VB's freshman production was shown to be similar to Deiner, Novak, Hayward and Wes.  VB's freshman numbers are also similar to Kimba Walker's freshman numbers.

Point is many many highly touted freshman struggle like VB is now and go on the have awesome Junior and Senior years.  It so common that it should almost be expect int he case of VB.

El Duderino Are VBs mechanics off because he has bad mechanics or no confidence causing him to shoot the ball all wrong?  It's a big difference.  If his problems are mental, forcing him to change everything mechanically as you suggest will make him worse.  Let him get confidence and see if his stoke returns.  If not, then work on the mechanics.

Not to be a broken record, but this is exactly the same wrong advice that many said Junior needed to do with his FT shooting this summer (remember a 100 FTs a day?).   Then Junior got confident and without changing his mechanics, Junior has shot 80% of his FTs in the last 5 games.

Here's the problem, you all look at these guys like this is sixth grade basketball and think it's all about teaching them the basic fundamentals of the game.  They know the fundamentals.  At this level is is about playing as a team and having the confidence to believe you belong and want the ball in crunch time.

[brewcity77]

I hate to bring it up, but how often does our rival to the west, who most concede is a very good coach, get an impact freshman?   Gasser is getting minutes by default, but other than a couple of good games, he hasn't done a lot.   Wasn't MU basketball's patron saint that said something along the lines of....the best thing about freshman is that they become sophomores?     Would you rather have Calipari here who magically gets impact freshman only to see them leave for the league after a year?     Blue's numbers compare to Fredette's and Walker's as freshmen.    And yet some want to use him as evidence that Buzz sucks.    Sounds like some just have an agenda.     The kid will be fine.

+1

I think it's a bit surprising that so many expected him to start, I didn't think he would until maybe the middle of Big East play, and even that was no lock. We've got two starting seniors and two starting juniors. Admittedly all JUCO transfers, but that's still higher-level experience than Blue came in with. And no matter how good he is, Blue's not going to start at center.

Bottom line, we don't need him to be the man most nights. We have other guys who can take that role. Let him grow into it. There's plenty of time for him. And besides, he's already a ready and willing defender. How often to the big recruits just want to score and be the man? Seems to me having a kid who's good on that end is more valuable than someone who just wants to score, simply because it's a rare commodity these days.

[warriors1991]

El Duderino Are VBs mechanics off because he has bad mechanics or no confidence causing him to shoot the ball all wrong?  It's a big difference.  If his problems are mental, forcing him to change everything mechanically as you suggest will make him worse.  Let him get confidence and see if his stoke returns.  If not, then work on the mechanics.

Vander's mechanics are off because of bad mechanics. He shoots the ball off the heel of his palm, his release point is to the right of and underneath his chin, his elbow flies outside, and he hitches and tends to shoot when he's already on the way back down. Not to mention that he practically shoots his FTs from his chest. He needs to get his R hand up above his forehead, his elbow in, the ball on his fingertips, and shooting in the rising part of his jump. It will come and I think he'll be a great player for us, but it needs a LOT of work.

[Stretchdeltsig]

It's troubling to watch Vander play this season.  It seems that his confidence level is going south instead of north.  Expected Vander to play at the level he was rated coming in.  His defense is nothing great (very few if any steals); and his offense has become a joke.  It makes you wonder what is going on in practice.  With proper coaching, he should be getting better instead of worse.  He seems to be following in the foot steps of Cadugan.  Thought coming he would be more like Marquette legend, Dean Memminger, an ultra quick slasher.

[Tugg Speedman]

It's troubling to watch Vander play this season.  It seems that his confidence level is going south instead of north.  Expected Vander to play at the level he was rated coming in.  His defense is nothing great (very few if any steals); and his offense has become a joke.  It makes you wonder what is going on in practice.  With proper coaching, he should be getting better instead of worse.  He seems to be following in the foot steps of Cadugan.  Thought coming he would be more like Marquette legend, Dean Memminger, an ultra quick slasher.

Do you make this up or just not watch the games?

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/269/marquette-golden-eagles

Vander is third on the team with 26 steals while playing about 150 minutes less than Butler (31) and Crowder (30).  DJO has 13 and Buycks has 25 and both have way more minutes the VB.

Regarding Cadougan,  here's a news flash, he tore is Achilles last year and missed 3/4 of the season.  It wasn't until this fall that he was fully healed and past it.

Did you expect a Memminger type performance in a cast?

[Tugg Speedman]

It's troubling to watch Vander play this season.  It seems that his confidence level is going south instead of north.  Expected Vander to play at the level he was rated coming in.  His defense is nothing great (very few if any steals); and his offense has become a joke.  It makes you wonder what is going on in practice.  With proper coaching, he should be getting better instead of worse.  He seems to be following in the foot steps of Cadugan.  Thought coming he would be more like Marquette legend, Dean Memminger, an ultra quick slasher.

91, have you seen VB in practice?  Is that the way he shoots in practice?  And if he shoots that way in practice, how does he do?  I thought I read that he hits EVERYTHING in practice which is why Buzz keeps running him out there.  We know he shot very well this past summer on the U18 team.

Luciano Pavarotti once said something to the effect of ... anyone can perform when no one is looking.  The trick is being able to perform when one's sphincter is so tight it hurts.

I fear that if you take someone with a confidence problem and pile on changing his mechanics, you risk making him permanently worse.

[avid1010]

Compare Vander to BYU's Jimmer Fredette in his Freshman Year.
Unbelievable.

What's unbelievable is that you keep going to these ridiculous comparisons.  Vander will be just fine, and anyone that knows anything about basketball realizes that.  The question is why can't Buzz get a true freshman to have an offensive impact on a team in his three years at MU?  I was hoping for some decent debate about different coaches having different philosophies on how they bring freshman along as the season progresses, but instead you come back with Walla nd Fredette comparisons?  Really?  What the heck does that prove.  I can show you a thousand freshmen that have Fredette numbers as freshmen and never progress into being even average D1 players.  It proves nothing, and has nothing to do with the conversation.  

Simply put, is seems odd that Buzz hasn't had a freshman in 3 years that shows much of anything on the offensive end in his freshman year and why is this the case?  My thought is that he doesn't trust any freshman, so he tends to balance his classes with JUCO kids, and he brings his freshmen along slowly, not asking them to do much outside of defesne, rebounding, and not turning the ball over.  It's a different philosophy than someone like Calhoun and that's why he has freshmen that are really starting to come on strong, while Vander looks to be stuck in his progress.  

[Tugg Speedman]

Simply put, is seems odd that Buzz hasn't had a freshman in 3 years that shows much of anything on the offensive end in his freshman year and why is this the case?  

What Freshman are you referring to?

2008 = Outle (hurt)

2009 =  Ewill, Jmay (transfer), Mbao (transfer), Junior (hurt)

2010  = VB, Smith (transfer) J Jones, Devante

Other than VB, what unhurt non-transferred Freshman were you expecting big things from?

Prior to this year it seems their was only one possible candidate, Ewill.  Are you basing your opinion in Buzz's ability to develop Freshman solely on the progress of Ewill?

Regarding JMay ... Should we praise Buzz because Freshman JMay looked much better than Sophomore JMay under Bruce Pearl?

[avid1010]

What Freshman are you referring to?

2008 = Outle (hurt)

2009 =  Ewill, Jmay (transfer), Mbao (transfer), Junior (hurt)

2010  = VB, Smith (transfer) J Jones, Devante

Other than VB, what unhurt non-transferred Freshman were you expecting big things from? I would expect in three years that Buzz recruit one freshman that had an offensive impact on the team.  Are you stating that you don't expect this to happen?  Not one in three years?

Prior to this year it seems their was only one possible candidate, Ewill.  Are you basing your opinion in Buzz's ability to develop Freshman solely on the progress of Ewill? Why prior to this year?  The fact that Buzz has recruited so many JUCO players, few true freshmen, and the ones that didn't transfer (E-Will, VB, JJ and DG) haven't been able to help the team offensively in BEAST play seems to show his philosophy with freshmen.

Regarding JMay ... Should we praise Buzz because Freshman JMay looked much better than Sophomore JMay under Bruce Pearl? So you're saying Buzz can develop players that transfer?

Thank you for making my point for me...wow!

[Tugg Speedman]

I would expect in three years that Buzz recruit one freshman that had an offensive impact on the team.  Are you stating that you don't expect this to happen?  Not one in three years?

And, if I concede your point, what did you win?  That in a period of transition, Buzz recruited a bunch of high impact Jucos?  Why is the standard of a Freshman that make an impact their Freshman year on a bunch of ranked teams (2008 and 2009) so important?  What I care about is what they develop into.

[Canadian Dimes]

ALMOST EVERY SINGLE POST IN THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS AS PATHETIC AS IT IS IGNORANT

[avid1010]

And, if I concede your point, what did you win?  That in a period of transition, Buzz recruited a bunch of high impact Jucos?  Why is the standard of a Freshman that make an impact their Freshman year on a bunch of ranked teams (2008 and 2009) so important?  What I care about is what they develop into.

Not trying to win anything...get a life.  I was looking for intelligent conversation on how different coaches use freshmen, and why they do so.  You'll have a very hard time finding many posts from me being critical of Buzz or any MU player...that wasn't what this was about.  Just trying to look at different styles and understand why Buzz does what he does with freshmen.  Unfortunately that no longer happens on this board.

[Pakuni]

What's unbelievable is that you keep going to these ridiculous comparisons.  Vander will be just fine, and anyone that knows anything about basketball realizes that.  The question is why can't Buzz get a true freshman to have an offensive impact on a team in his three years at MU?  I was hoping for some decent debate about different coaches having different philosophies on how they bring freshman along as the season progresses, but instead you come back with Walla nd Fredette comparisons?  Really?  What the heck does that prove.  I can show you a thousand freshmen that have Fredette numbers as freshmen and never progress into being even average D1 players.  It proves nothing, and has nothing to do with the conversation.  

Simply put, is seems odd that Buzz hasn't had a freshman in 3 years that shows much of anything on the offensive end in his freshman year and why is this the case?  My thought is that he doesn't trust any freshman, so he tends to balance his classes with JUCO kids, and he brings his freshmen along slowly, not asking them to do much outside of defesne, rebounding, and not turning the ball over.  It's a different philosophy than someone like Calhoun and that's why he has freshmen that are really starting to come on strong, while Vander looks to be stuck in his progress.  

I'm not sure it's a fair question, given that there have only been two freshman over those three years who've had a chance to have an impact. Maymon, Smith, Mbao, Cadougan and Otule, for either transfer or injury reasons, didn't have a chance to have an impact as freshmen. Jones is stuck behind the team's best all around player (who averages 34 mpg) and hasn't - to few people's surprise - had the opportunity to make an impact.
That leaves Blue and Erik Williams. And in Blue's case, I'm interested in knowing how you define "impact." Some might suggest that a kid playing 23 mpg (including 10 starts) and who's become the team's best perimeter defender has had an impact. Perhaps not a large impact, and probably not the expected impact, but it's not as if he's a small step above Rob Frozena when it comes to contributing.

Anyhow, I guess what I'm saying here is that you're declaring a trend - that Buzz Williams, either by choice or poor coaching, cannot get a true freshman to have an impact - when, in reality, the sample size of two players over three years is far too small to make such a declaration.

[Tugg Speedman]

Not trying to win anything...get a life.  I was looking for intelligent conversation on how different coaches use freshmen, and why they do so.  You'll have a very hard time finding many posts from me being critical of Buzz or any MU player...that wasn't what this was about.  Just trying to look at different styles and understand why Buzz does what he does with freshmen.  Unfortunately that no longer happens on this board.

What I was trying to say is the sample size of Freshman is so small that you cannot draw any conclusions either way.  Essentially the entire sample size is Vander.  Cannot draw any conclusions from a sample of one.

2008 and 2009 were ranked teams with established players.  Unless we had a top 50 or top 30 buy (like Vander) no Freshman was going to play.  And the one's we had were either injured, transferred or coming in not ranked high enough to expect to see action.

So the answer to your question is we have to wait a few more years and see a lot more than Vander to draw any conclusions.