Well, at least UW-madison won't beat #16 Illinois with their traditional players

[Jay Bee]

You guys are only picking on Chicos because it's him.  If anyone else would have started this thread you would have had no issue with it. 

[Lennys Tap]

.by the way House, it's three sentences, not one....maybe you should go back to that 5th grade math commentary you had the other day and learn to count.

It was just the final sentence about throwing stuff and then running to Mommy that I was referring to.

[Marquette84]

+1

I've said before and in this thread that I generally like Chicos. But stuff like this is ridiculous. What place does this thread have in this forum? What point does it's creation serve other than to rile up Marquette fans? And what is more galling than knowing that the person rubbing salt into your wounds supports the same team you do. I've brought this general point up twice in here and been conveniently ignored by the thread-starter. I don't know if it's because he doesn't have an answer or because I have made decent rational points without making personal attacks so he doesn't know how to respond.

Come on, Chicos, is there really any rational need for this thread or argument? Especially in the emotional wake of one of the biggest choke jobs in NCAA history?

I think you're looking in the wrong direction.

Go back and read some threads from 2006, 2007, 2008.  Specifically look at Chico's contributions.  Compare the nature of those who responded to him back then with discussions today. 

After you look through those older posts, do you still want to blame him?


Now look at some MU Scoop registration dates:

Chicos:  October 24, 2006, 06:34:22 PM
Lenny:  January 19, 2009, 09:34:18 PM
Ners:    November 14, 2009, 10:40:58 AM
Canadian Dimes:  March 18, 2010, 02:14:54 PM

There is no argument that the civility on this board has taken a decided turn for the worse lately.  It seems like every other thread results in either Lenny or Ners or Dimes making some ad-hominem attack, personal smear or namecalling, regardless of the subject.  There have been more threads locked in the last few months than I recall in the history of the board--and the common thread seems to be that one of these guys is involved.

Here's a good example:  Chicos asks a legit question about Gasser--a local kid with high-major offers (Maryland, Wisconsin, Northwestern) that goes off for 21 in his first game.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=22194.0

Do we get a discussion of his recruitment?  Hardly.
--Lenny accuses him of being racist.
--Ners says he's on a "witch hunt"
--Canadian Dimes said he's "highly ignorant" and "smothered in agenda"

There was a time we could ask these questions and have civil discussions. For example, here's a question about the recruitment of Nick Fazekas from 2006:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=954.0

Note that raising the question didn't lead to accusations of a witch hunt. Nobody jumped in and accused the guy of holding an anti-MU agenda.  Nobody accused him of being racist for wanting Fazekas (who is white).  Nobody callled him ignorant.

You can blame Chico's if you want--but you'll be blaming the wrong guy.

[Lennys Tap]

Here's a good example:  Chicos asks a legit question about Gasser--a local kid with high-major offers (Maryland, Wisconsin, Northwestern) that goes off for 21 in his first game.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=22194.0

Do we get a discussion of his recruitment?  Hardly.
--Lenny accuses him of being racist.
.

Just read the thread you referenced and nowhere do I call Chicos a racist. I will, however, unequivically call you a liar for saying it.

[77ncaachamps]

aw hell.

Ignore button was finally used for 2011.

[Mutaman]

You guys are only picking on Chicos because it's him.  If anyone else would have started this thread you would have had no issue with it. 

Bingo! As a newcomer here I could not understand why people were constantly trashing Chico's rather reasonable posts. Then I finally figured out it had nothing to do with the merits of his arguments.

[brewcity77]

84, I understand that I don't share that history on this site, but how many new members would go back 4-5 years to figure that stuff out. I'll agree that people do pile on Chicos, but this thread is a perfect example of him bringing it on himself. All I can really say is to reiterate my question: what is the point of this thread other than to either rile up MU fans or to kick them when they're down. Unless I missed something, no one provoked Chicos into creating this thread, and no one has provided any logical explanation as to the relevance of it on this site.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You caused that to happen, my friend.


BTW...You are twisting words around. Dont you usually chastise posters for doing the same thing to you?


Tradition is...18% from beyond the arc.

Tradition is 50% beyond the arc...Scott Christopherson and he was actually ON OUR TEAM

[OnWisconsin]

Whatever. You guys would trade both testicles and Gasser for Vander. He's soooooo much better of a player.

Dream on, you're like an upset child saying stuff they don't mean. (Happens when you blow 18 point leads)

We (badger fans) don't view Gasser as a stud. We do think he will be a very good 4 year player, which he will be. What on earth makes you think we need Vander Blue's 3.6 Big East PPG? Or his pitiful 45 assists to 33 turnovers (Gasser 36 to 13). They are both shooting a pathetic clip from three, although Gasser will prove to be the better shooter as time goes on. Point is, they are so similar statistically that you have no grounds to say that we want Vander Blue. I'll take Gasser personally. Only thing Wisconsin misses about not getting Vander, is his speed and athleticism. But we're doing okay with our slow, boring, farm boys.

[tower912]

Losing a 9 point lead on the road in 2.5 minutes = losing a 18 pt leat on the road in 5.5 minutes, when adjusted for pace.(Hint: one of the two teams plays at the slowest pace in D1)  Neither leaves a lot of room for smack talk.   Blue vs Gasser?   Both have had one good game.   Both are freshmen with upside.   Both fit their respective schools' scheme.   Both would not look so good playing for the other.     

[MerrittsMustache]

84, I understand that I don't share that history on this site, but how many new members would go back 4-5 years to figure that stuff out. I'll agree that people do pile on Chicos, but this thread is a perfect example of him bringing it on himself. All I can really say is to reiterate my question: what is the point of this thread other than to either rile up MU fans or to kick them when they're down. Unless I missed something, no one provoked Chicos into creating this thread, and no one has provided any logical explanation as to the relevance of it on this site.

There are definitely times where people respond to Chicos' posts the way that they do simply because Chicos is the poster...but this had to come from somewhere. There wasn't a secret meeting where a handful of MUScoopers got together, drew Chicos name out of a hat and decided to pick on him. IMO, he often makes posts for no other reason than to be an instigator and to rile up the masses and then he condescendingly basks in the glow of being the center of attention.

I'm sure that Chicos and his boyfriend, Marquette84, will continue to blame everyone else, but starting posts like this one seem to serve no purpose other than to get people talking about Chicos' favorite subject: Chicos.

[tower912]

chico's started this thread.  His original comment could just as easily have come from a badger troll.   He got the attention he craved as the thread went in all of the predictable directions.    Kind of pathetic. 

[MerrittsMustache]

I think you're looking in the wrong direction.

Go back and read some threads from 2006, 2007, 2008.  Specifically look at Chico's contributions.  Compare the nature of those who responded to him back then with discussions today. 

After you look through those older posts, do you still want to blame him?


Now look at some MU Scoop registration dates:

Chicos:  October 24, 2006, 06:34:22 PM
Lenny:  January 19, 2009, 09:34:18 PM
Ners:    November 14, 2009, 10:40:58 AM
Canadian Dimes:  March 18, 2010, 02:14:54 PM

There is no argument that the civility on this board has taken a decided turn for the worse lately.  It seems like every other thread results in either Lenny or Ners or Dimes making some ad-hominem attack, personal smear or namecalling, regardless of the subject.  There have been more threads locked in the last few months than I recall in the history of the board--and the common thread seems to be that one of these guys is involved.

Here's a good example:  Chicos asks a legit question about Gasser--a local kid with high-major offers (Maryland, Wisconsin, Northwestern) that goes off for 21 in his first game.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=22194.0

Do we get a discussion of his recruitment?  Hardly.
--Lenny accuses him of being racist.
--Ners says he's on a "witch hunt"
--Canadian Dimes said he's "highly ignorant" and "smothered in agenda"

There was a time we could ask these questions and have civil discussions. For example, here's a question about the recruitment of Nick Fazekas from 2006:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=954.0

Note that raising the question didn't lead to accusations of a witch hunt. Nobody jumped in and accused the guy of holding an anti-MU agenda.  Nobody accused him of being racist for wanting Fazekas (who is white).  Nobody callled him ignorant.

You can blame Chico's if you want--but you'll be blaming the wrong guy.

Nice effort but it's an apples to orangatuns comparison. There was interest between MU and Fazekas and he was a very talented and productive player. On the other hand, there wasn't much interest between Gasser and MU, not to mention that he was an invited walk-on who had a good game against a very bad team which was all it took to lead to Chicos' slurping of him. Also, no one implied that Chicos was racist simply because he wanted Gasser. The racial overtones came into play when Chicos stated that he wanted more "traditional" players, etc, etc.

[mu-rara]

My "boy" Gasser.  Lol.  He's enjoying a win over a ranked team tonight.

I'll say this about UW, they are boring, not very athletic but they play smart and traditional...we don't which is why we have a higher ceiling and a lower basement.

Our stupidity sometimes really hurts any athletic advantages we have.

CBB got a little close to the bandwagon in the first half of Saturday's game.  He has to re -establish himself with a little Badger love.

[Marquette84]

Just read the thread you referenced and nowhere do I call Chicos a racist. I will, however, unequivically call you a liar for saying it.

This post:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=22194.msg242724#msg242724

1. "Code word" is a common way to put forth a charge of racism (e.g. the term "states rights" is often described as a "code word."  As are "separate but equal", "inner city", "neighborhood schools", etc. ).  Now apply the context that Gasser is white and all scholarship players on MU's roster are black.   Your use of the term "code word" is entirely consistent with someone who was charging that Chicos was racist for using the term "traditional."

I'll grant that its possible that you were ignorant of the historical context of the phrase "code word". Maybe you had some other code in mind that you didn't bother to explain.


2.  If you DID have another meaning in mind, the onus is upon you to explain what you actually meant.  
You claim you didn't mean it in a racial context.  Fine--what DID you mean?  Code word for what?  


3.  Given that I have provided the link to the post, I request that you retract your charge of "Liar" and offer an apology.  I may have misinterpreted your comment due to your lack of explanation--but that doesn't constitute lying on my part.  

4.  Finally, if you offer a reasonable and rational explanation of what alternate meaning for "code word" you had, I will be more than happy to provide a retraction and apology.

[Marquette84]

Nice effort but it's an apples to orangatuns comparison. There was interest between MU and Fazekas and he was a very talented and productive player. On the other hand, there wasn't much interest between Gasser and MU, not to mention that he was an invited walk-on who had a good game against a very bad team which was all it took to lead to Chicos' slurping of him.

Actually, I was comparing the tone of the responses on the board--not the players themselves.

And Gasser must have had some talent, because he had other high-major offers. And while you can claim the opponent wasn't very good, Gasser's 21 point performance was better than any Marquette player had against the same team.

It wasn't an unreasonable question in the context of when it occurred.  It didn't warrant the attacks in incivility. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Nice effort but it's an apples to orangatuns comparison. There was interest between MU and Fazekas and he was a very talented and productive player. On the other hand, there wasn't much interest between Gasser and MU, not to mention that he was an invited walk-on who had a good game against a very bad team which was all it took to lead to Chicos' slurping of him. Also, no one implied that Chicos was racist simply because he wanted Gasser. The racial overtones came into play when Chicos stated that he wanted more "traditional" players, etc, etc.

Which remains beyond ridiculous because a "traditiional" player as I have defined clearly doesn't have to be white, black, Asian, whatever.  It's someone that can shoot the ball, has a high basketball IQ, shoots free throws well, and does the little things that has to be done to be successful.  You guys are the ones that took traditional to mean white and then started all the racial B.S.  That's on your heads, not mine.  There is no place on this board for it, but Lenny has stated it twice now and affirmed another post with a +1 that came flat out and implied it.  Krav's has said it and others have implied it, including yourself.  It's B.S.  And you wonder why I sometimes have a chip on my shoulder toward certain a-holes?  When someone goes there, you're damn right I'm going to fire back.

[MerrittsMustache]

Actually, I was comparing the tone of the responses on the board--not the players themselves.

And Gasser must have had some talent, because he had other high-major offers. And while you can claim the opponent wasn't very good, Gasser's 21 point performance was better than any Marquette player had against the same team.

It wasn't an unreasonable question in the context of when it occurred.  It didn't warrant the attacks in incivility. 

And you don't think the responses had anything to do with the players being discussed?

[MerrittsMustache]

Which remains beyond ridiculous because a "traditiional" player as I have defined clearly doesn't have to be white, black, Asian, whatever.  It's someone that can shoot the ball, has a high basketball IQ, shoots free throws well, and does the little things that has to be done to be successful.  You guys are the ones that took traditional to mean white and then started all the racial B.S.  That's on your heads, not mine.  There is no place on this board for it, but Lenny has stated it twice now and affirmed another post with a +1 that came flat out and implied it.  Krav's has said it and others have implied it, including yourself.  It's B.S.  And you wonder why I sometimes have a chip on my shoulder toward certain a-holes?  When someone goes there, you're damn right I'm going to fire back.

When YOU make a post and a large number of posters misinterpret what YOU wrote, then it's on YOU to clarify what YOU meant because clearly YOU did a poor job of expressing how YOU feel. Other people "went there" only after believing that YOU had "gone there."

Despite what you claim, I did NOT imply that you were being racist. I stated that I initially thought your comments were racist until reading further posts and realizing that wasn't the case.

[Marquette84]

84, I understand that I don't share that history on this site, but how many new members would go back 4-5 years to figure that stuff out. I'll agree that people do pile on Chicos, but this thread is a perfect example of him bringing it on himself. All I can really say is to reiterate my question: what is the point of this thread other than to either rile up MU fans or to kick them when they're down. Unless I missed something, no one provoked Chicos into creating this thread, and no one has provided any logical explanation as to the relevance of it on this site.

On the other hand, Chicos was attacked mercilessly for being complementary of the success that Wisconsin has had with their style of play. The Illinois game supports his point, and given the nature of the attacks he suffered, he has every right to put forth evidence that his point had merit--just as those who opposed him posted about the Wisconsin/Michigan State game.

And its not as if MU fans are indifferent to Wisconsin.  Its a relevant topic.

As I said the bigger issues is that the discussions are getting more personal, the personal attacks and namecalling are getting out of hand.  And its fair to look back to see when the tone started going south and who instigated it.  

[OnWisconsin]

Losing a 9 point lead on the road in 2.5 minutes = losing a 18 pt leat on the road in 5.5 minutes, when adjusted for pace.(Hint: one of the two teams plays at the slowest pace in D1)  Neither leaves a lot of room for smack talk.   Blue vs Gasser?   Both have had one good game.   Both are freshmen with upside.   Both fit their respective schools' scheme.   Both would not look so good playing for the other.     

Pace doesn't play a factor in this argument.. if your doing anything besides running clock, up 18 with four and change left, you aren't a smart team. That UW loss was ugly though, we had a player make two crucial mistakes that cost us. dropping an in bounds pass (35 seconds) and attacking the hoop with no reason at all with 30 on the shot clock, kind of like what buckys (sp?) did from what I've heard.

[Lennys Tap]

This post:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=22194.msg242724#msg242724

1. "Code word" is a common way to put forth a charge of racism (e.g. the term "states rights" is often described as a "code word."  As are "separate but equal", "inner city", "neighborhood schools", etc. ).  Now apply the context that Gasser is white and all scholarship players on MU's roster are black.   Your use of the term "code word" is entirely consistent with someone who was charging that Chicos was racist for using the term "traditional."

I'll grant that its possible that you were ignorant of the historical context of the phrase "code word". Maybe you had some other code in mind that you didn't bother to explain.


2.  If you DID have another meaning in mind, the onus is upon you to explain what you actually meant.  
You claim you didn't mean it in a racial context.  Fine--what DID you mean?  Code word for what?  


3.  Given that I have provided the link to the post, I request that you retract your charge of "Liar" and offer an apology.  I may have misinterpreted your comment due to your lack of explanation--but that doesn't constitute lying on my part.  

4.  Finally, if you offer a reasonable and rational explanation of what alternate meaning for "code word" you had, I will be more than happy to provide a retraction and apology.

Chicos, without ever seeing Josh Gasser play and after one college game, starts a thread about the kid. Calls him "very intelligent", "a good outside shooter", "a spot up shooter" and a "traditional" player who is lacking in athleticism. He knows none of these things, but assumes them as facts based on what? Turns out Chicos was wrong on everything verifiable - he's not a good outside or spot up shooter, but he is a very good athlete. Nobody knows whether or not he's "very intelligent", but why would someone attribute that quality to him without any evidence is puzzling.

Why did Chicos engage in this type of (incorrect) sterotyping as regards Josh Gasser and his game? I don't know, but I (and others) correctly pointed out what it SOUNDED LIKE.

But I NEVER said he was a racist and for you to claim it is a lie. My belief is he was doing his usual thing - finding anything he can to rip the program. In the process he unintentionally made some foolish and insensitive comments. But for him to play the  victim in the fight he clearly started is silly.

So no retraction or apology here. Your assertion that I called Chicos a racist is still a lie. I'll anxiously await your apology.

[brewcity77]

What I've learned from this thread...

1) I can ask time and time again what the point is of a thread in a logical manner and never expect a response from the person I'm directing the question at.

2) UW fans have somehow convinced themselves that they are better off with Gasser than Blue. Right, because having athletic, skilled players like Devin Harris and Alando Tucker never got them anywhere.

3) Chicos is discriminated against by some on this site, but also perpetuates that discrimination with threads like this. Seems like everyone likely is getting what they want, even if they'd never admit it.

[MerrittsMustache]

What I've learned from this thread...

1) I can ask time and time again what the point is of a thread in a logical manner and never expect a response from the person I'm directing the question at.

2) UW fans have somehow convinced themselves that they are better off with Gasser than Blue. Right, because having athletic, skilled players like Devin Harris and Alando Tucker never got them anywhere.

3) Chicos is discriminated against by some on this site, but also perpetuates that discrimination with threads like this. Seems like everyone likely is getting what they want, even if they'd never admit it.

It would be interesting to have a "What I learned from this thread" post at the end of each thread. We'd probably find that we've all gotten a lot dumber 

[akmarq]

As with most super polarizing, overblown debates I think that most of this community has fallen into that ol'logical fallacy of the false dichotomy. People seem to be clawing at each other over the following division:
1. Chicos is unfairly treated by some (the overwhelming minority - they just happen to be active and vocal) posters and is frequently attacked unfairly
2. Chicos brings it upon himself and is simply a mean spirited instigator.

Surprise! Neither is right. At least not all the way. There are probably shades of both positions in how the real situation has played out, but the vast majority of "the problem" lies somewhere in the middle. Chicos has unpopular (though not unjustifiable views) on some issues discussed here and is criticized for them. That's what having unpopular views will do to you. Unfortunately, this criticism sometimes comes in the form of ad hominem and "poisoning the well" so that everything he says is dismissed out of hand only because it comes from him.

On the other hand, threads like this one (just looking at the title, not how it has developed) do have an undeniably antagonizing tone to them. Especially when TIMING in considered. To post that UW beat Illinois is not out of bounds here - I think we all care about the failure (or unfortunate success) of UW basketball. But given the wording and timing (right after the event that shall not be named) it sure comes off as mean spirited. Maybe history has something to do with this (the "traditional" joke is pretty played out at this point) but that doesn't change the fact that it was sort of lame.

So. For the sake of the board and it's quality, it would seem a detente is in order. We get it. You guys disagree. You might not even like each other (I have no idea). But if we could all just not get tied up in these he said, she said arguments, the whole board would be better - and don't we all want that? At this point, who cares who started it - let's just all agree that it should end. Your self image should not be caught up in what posters on an online message board think of you and "who wins the argument."

That was probably too many words - but this place is starting to suck, which is a shame, because I used to really like reading and posting here.