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MU Avenue

Make that at least 100 free throws every day.

We cannot continue to miss the easy ones in games where they could be the difference between winning and losing.

Some of our guys are really bad at the line. What is with that?

PGsHeroes32

Pretty soon teams late in the game are going to throw 3 guys on Jimmy and give us the free in bounds before fouling any of the other 4 on the floor.


Maybe the Ox should play late, he makes them pretty solidly.
Lazar picking up where the BIG 3 left off....

NersEllenson

Quote from: MU Avenue on January 05, 2011, 09:18:22 PM
Make that at least 100 free throws every day.

We cannot continue to miss the easy ones in games where they could be the difference between winning and losing.

Some of our guys are really bad at the line. What is with that?

Junior isn't a very good shooter and has no confidence right now...so there's 2 of the misses down the stretch..and Buycks was ice cold coming off the bench to shoot his 2 that he missed.  Jimmy and DJO did fine...and Buycks for the season is 81%. 

"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

brewcity77

Honestly, I don't know that it'd help. Unless you bring in the student section and tell them to do everything they can to distract the shooter...it's just not the same shooting against a blank backboard and shooting in front of a hostile environment of 10,000+ that all want you to miss. Now open practice to the students and have them wave big heads at our boys and we might be on to something...

chren21

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 05, 2011, 09:25:52 PM
Honestly, I don't know that it'd help. Unless you bring in the student section and tell them to do everything they can to distract the shooter...it's just not the same shooting against a blank backboard and shooting in front of a hostile environment of 10,000+ that all want you to miss. Now open practice to the students and have them wave big heads at our boys and we might be on to something...

I never heard that practicing something doesn't improve your ability at the action you are practicing.  Even if sometimes there are distractions and sometimes not.  It's called muscle memory.  The more you do it the better the chance you have of succeeding under pressure.

Tugg Speedman

Buzz says in practice that you cannot replicate being dead tied and having the game on the line in front of 10,000 fans and on TV.  He's right.  The muscle memory stuff is a bunch of junk.

Buzz says making free throws are about mental toughness, not technique.  He's right about that.  I'm too lazy to look it up but we had a thread hear where Shaq was a 90% FT shooter in practice but barely 50% in a game.  Practice is just not the same.

That's why they do not practice free throws.  To be clear, Buzz does not take the limited amount of time the NCAA allows for team practice each week and devote it to FTs.  Someone here said it like the orchestra conductor having everyone practice scales together.  FT (or scales) are what you do own your own away from organized practice.  If we have to waste time shooting 100 FTs every day, then let's assume we'll play even worse defense (because we'll have less time to practice it.)


chren21

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 05, 2011, 09:48:37 PM
Buzz says in practice that you cannot replicate being dead tied and having the game on the line in front of 10,000 fans and on TV.  He's right.  The muscle memory stuff is a bunch of junk.

Buzz says making free throws are about mental toughness, not technique.  He's right about that.  I'm too lazy to look it up but we had a thread hear where Shaq was a 90% FT shooter in practice but barely 50% in a game.  Practice is just not the same.

That's why they do not practice free throws.  To be clear, Buzz does not take the limited amount of time the NCAA allows for team practice each week and devote it to FTs.  Someone here said it like the orchestra conductor having everyone practice scales together.  FT (or scales) are what you do own your own away from organized practice.  If we have to waste time shooting 100 FTs every day, then let's assume we'll play even worse defense (because we'll have less time to practice it.)


Who said anything about taking up team practice time to practice free throws?  Saying that the muscle memory thing is a bunch of junk is your opinion.  In my opinion practicing free throws improves your ability to make them under pressure.

94Warrior

It's on the players to practice FT's on their OWN TIME!

And yes, practice does make you better.

Tugg Speedman

Read This

For Free Throws, 50 Years of Practice Is No Help
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/04/sports/basketball/04freethrow.html?pagewanted=all

Basketball in the United States has changed in myriad ways over the decades, from flat-footed set shots to dunks, from crotch-hugging uniforms to baggy knee-length shorts, from the dominance of American players to the recent infusion of international stars.

But one thing has remained remarkably constant: the rate at which players make free throws.

Since the mid-1960s, college men's players have made about 69 percent of free throws, the unguarded 15-foot, 1-point shot awarded after a foul. In 1965, the rate was 69 percent. This season, as teams scramble for bids to the N.C.A.A. tournament, it was 68.8. It has dropped as low as 67.1 but never topped 70.

In the National Basketball Association, the average has been roughly 75 percent for more than 50 years. Players in college women's basketball and the W.N.B.A. reached similar plateaus — about equal to the men — and stuck there.

The general expectation in sports is that performance improves over time. Future athletes will surely be faster, throw farther, jump higher. But free-throw shooting represents a stubbornly peculiar athletic endeavor. As a group, players have not gotten better. Nor have they become worse.

"It's unbelievable," Larry Wright, an adjunct professor of statistics at Columbia, said as he studied the year-by-year averages. "There's almost no difference. Fifty years. This is mind-boggling."

There are measures in other sports that have shown similar consistency, like golf scores or batting averages, but none of them are as straightforward as lobbing a ball toward a basket.

The consistency of free-throw percentages stands out when contrasted with field-goal shooting over all. In men's college basketball, field-goal percentage was below 40 percent until 1960, then climbed steadily to 48.1 in 1984, still the highest on record. The long-range 3-point shot was introduced in 1986, and the overall shooting percentage has settled in at about 44 percent.

Utah is as good as anyplace to untangle the numbers. It is home to three of the top 10 free-throw shooting teams in men's Division I — No. 1 Southern Utah (80.5 percent), No. 4 Utah (78.5 percent before Tuesday's game against New Mexico) and No. 7 Utah Valley (77.0 percent, but not officially recognized by the N.C.A.A. because the program is in its final season of provisional status as a Division I team).

In the middle of Southern Utah's high-paced basketball scrimmage here last week, Coach Roger Reid stopped everything.

Players knew what to do. Their chests heaving in exhaustion, they silently lined up and shot free throws. A miss meant a sprint around the court.

"A lot of coaches give it lip service, but when you say that games are won and lost at the free-throw line, you better back it up," said Reid, who understands that individual players and teams can improve free-throw shooting through better technique and repetition. When Reid arrived at Southern Utah two years ago, he inherited a team that ranked 217th in free-throw percentage.

There is little correlation between free-throw percentages and winning percentages. Only one of the 25 best shooting teams, No. 2 North Carolina, is also in the latest Associated Press top 25 rankings. Southern Utah has a losing record.

That is why, despite accounting for more than 20 percent of scoring in men's college basketball and just below 20 percent in the N.B.A., free throws receive a fraction of the attention from coaches, players and fans. That is, until something considered free proves costly.

Last season, Memphis was 38-2 despite making only 61 percent of its free throws, missing an average of nearly 10 a game. The Tigers lost the national championship game after missing 4 of 5 free throws in the final 72 seconds against Kansas, which had made a late 3-point shot to tie the game and won in overtime.

This season, Utah outshot opponents from the line in overtime victories over Brigham Young and Colorado State, and 1-point victories over Gonzaga and New Mexico. Those victories will probably carry Utah (20-8) to the N.C.A.A. tournament.

Ray Stefani, a professor emeritus at California State University, Long Beach, is an expert in the statistical analysis of sports. Widespread improvement over time in any sport, he said, depends on a combination of four factors: physiology (the size and fitness of athletes, perhaps aided by performance-enhancing drugs), technology or innovation (things like the advent of rowing machines to train rowers, and the Fosbury Flop in high jumping), coaching (changes in strategy) and equipment (like the clap skate in speedskating or fiberglass poles in pole vaulting).

Those factors can help explain why swimming records seemingly fall at every international event, runners broke through the four-minute-mile barrier, field-goal kickers are more accurate than ever, bowling a 300 game is not as unlikely as it once was, and home run numbers surged in major league baseball.

"There are not a lot of those four things that would help in free-throw shooting," Stefani said.

Strength, for example, is not a significant advantage. W.N.B.A. players have outshot their N.B.A. counterparts twice in the past three years, and women in college have been close to the men's average for two decades.

There has not been a serious innovation in the way free throws have been shot for 50 years. The few still using a one-hand set shot from the chest, or even an underhand style, generally gave way to a flat-footed version of the burgeoning over-the-head jump shot. And although international players have helped the free-throw rate — Wright, the Columbia statistician, calculated that foreign-born players in the N.B.A. this season are shooting about 1.4 percentage points higher than their American-born counterparts — it cannot fully explain why the league is threatening the record high of 77.1, set in 1974.

Equipment, too, is virtually unchanged from 50 years ago. There have been only slight alterations to the ball, the rims and the backboards.

That leaves only one of Stefani's four factors that might reasonably affect free-throw averages: coaching.

Coaches admit to baselines of acceptability for their players and teams. The average, apparently, is about 75 percent in the N.B.A. and 69 percent in college basketball. When numbers slip, time is devoted to improvement. When they rebound, the game's other facets take precedence.

"A lot of coaches don't want to spend time on it in practice," said Blake Ahearn, a former Missouri State player who is the N.C.A.A.'s leader in career free-throw percentage (94.6) and now leads the N.B.A. Development League as a guard for the Dakota Wizards. "They want to work on defenses and offenses and schemes."

But even practice has never made perfect. The general rule is that players, in games, shoot 10 percentage points below their practice average. The difference is pressure and fatigue, hard to replicate in an empty arena.

Utah Valley and Chicago State were tied with a minute left in last week's game in Orem, Utah. About two-thirds of a winning team's points in the final minute typically come from the free-throw line, which is why Utah Valley wanted the ball in Ryan Toolson's hands. His career free-throw average is 94 percent.

Toolson was fouled on a drive with 51 seconds left. Swish, swish.

He was fouled with 18 seconds left. Swish, swish.

He was fouled with 9 seconds left. Swish, bonk.

The crowd murmured. The game was momentarily in doubt. But after Utah Valley escaped with a victory, thanks to two more free throws, Coach Dick Hunsaker praised Toolson as Mr. Clutch.

"Except that free throw," Toolson whispered to himself.

MU Avenue

Quote from: chren21 on January 05, 2011, 09:54:49 PM
Who said anything about taking up team practice time to practice free throws?  Saying that the muscle memory thing is a bunch of junk is your opinion.  In my opinion practicing free throws improves your ability to make them under pressure.

I only wrote that each of our players must shoot at least 100 free throws every day. I did not say it need be during organized practices.

I would think the players would want to develop reliable shots from the line.

On a related matter, is Buzz Williams really so indifferent about free throw shooting and about having his players become much better from the line?

I hope not.

It would be ridiculous if Buzz were not deeply concerned about how inconsistent and unreliable we are from the line.

MerrittsMustache

Quote from: MU Avenue on January 05, 2011, 10:05:06 PM
I only wrote that each of our players must shoot at least 100 free throws every day.

They probably do.

Tugg Speedman

I would agree with that .. they all probably shoot at least 100 FT a day, and have since early in high school.  So now what should they do?

chren21


Tugg Speedman

Quote from: chren21 on January 05, 2011, 10:13:39 PM
your article did nothing to change my opinion.

50 years of practice and no one is getting better does not change your mind?

FT shooting is what it is.  We cannot change what we are and no "muscle memory" or 100 FTs a day is going to change it.  Stop whining about it and start looking at offense and defensive execution, that we can change.

AZWarrior

Quote from: 94Warrior on January 05, 2011, 09:58:21 PM
It's on the players to practice FT's on their OWN TIME!

And yes, practice does make you better.

Not necessarily.  Practice (repetition, really) makes "permanent".  So if you are practicing /  repeating using proper form, yes, the practice will make you better.  If, however, you are practicing / repeating improper form.....  Either way, you build muscle memory, and if its "improper-form muscle memory", you're just digging a deeper hole.

I hope they do practice free throws in practice, at least enough so the coaches can identify improper form, and then let the players continue to practice on their own, hopefully building "proper" muscle memory.

And yes - the other variables, being tired, out of breath, loud noise etc. wouldn't hurt.
All this talk of rights.  So little talk of responsibilities.

Dr. Blackheart

#15
Bumping this post that compares FT shooting eras by coach....probably the most comparable stat.  As a reminder, Buzz's first two teams are the all time leaders in FT% at 73.3%,  This year's team is now 68.5% after a slow start (had been improving until the past two games).  According to Pomeroy, the national average this season is 68.4%.  So, the 2010-11 team is still better than Al's team's average of 67.8%.

Road inexperience (Caddy and Blue 2-7), Buycks leg injury (0-2) led to a subpar FT shooting tonight. The rest were 18-23 or 78.3%.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21476.0

EDIT:  Typo on Buzz's #'s from today's post...should be 73.3%.  Also MU84, this season FT% stat I note is from the MU Site and includes today's game vs. ESPN's...so YTD it is 68.5%.  Thanks

Tugg Speedman

#16
ESPN has different numbers

Year   Games       FT%          FTA   Notes
2011     14          69.10%      343   
2010     34          74.10%      660   
2009     35         72.80%      338   
2008     35         70.60%      785   
2007     34         66.90%      783   
2006     31         73.20%      635   Novak 97%, 74 FTA
2005     31         71.0%         451   Novak 91%, 146 FTA
2004     31         74.7%         683   Novak 91%, 68 FTA
2003     38          77.1%     857   
2002     33        69.20%          720   

StillAWarrior

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 05, 2011, 10:22:14 PM
50 years of practice and no one is getting better does not change your mind?

FT shooting is what it is.  We cannot change what we are and no "muscle memory" or 100 FTs a day is going to change it.  Stop whining about it and start looking at offense and defensive execution, that we can change.

Actually, the article suggests that practice does help. It says that when teams" percentages slip too much, "time is devoted to improvement" and when things rebound, coaches focus on other things. Why would coaches devote time to improvement (I.e., practice) if it didn't help?  And how would a team's percentage improve if the practice didn't help?

The article says that players tend to shoot 10% below their practice average in games due to pressure and fatigue, but does not even remotely suggest that practice doesn't improve performance.

Not sure what article you read, but an article discussing that free throw percentages haven't improved over the years doesn't even remotely support your point.
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

chren21

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 05, 2011, 10:22:14 PM
50 years of practice and no one is getting better does not change your mind?

FT shooting is what it is.  We cannot change what we are and no "muscle memory" or 100 FTs a day is going to change it.  Stop whining about it and start looking at offense and defensive execution, that we can change.

Whining?  Who's whining?  I will say it again.  My opinion is different than yours, deal with that fact.

Good points StillAWarrior. 

Arguing over this isn't going to change anything anyways.

Markusquette

I'm sure they all practice free throws.  I think there comes a point where it's really not going to help a lot more.

ChicosBailBonds

Quote from: 94Warrior on January 05, 2011, 09:58:21 PM
It's on the players to practice FT's on their OWN TIME!

And yes, practice does make you better.

Not all coaches agree.  Bo Ryan, Coach K, John Wooden, etc mandated it in practice.  I certainly understand Buzz's reason for not doing it because of the limitations on time.

Tugg Speedman

Quote from: StillAWarrior on January 05, 2011, 10:36:44 PM
Actually, the article suggests that practice does help. It says that when teams" percentages slip too much, "time is devoted to improvement" and when things rebound, coaches focus on other things. Why would coaches devote time to improvement (I.e., practice) if it didn't help?  And how would a team's percentage improve if the practice didn't help?

The article says that players tend to shoot 10% below their practice average in games due to pressure and fatigue, but does not even remotely suggest that practice doesn't improve performance.

Not sure what article you read, but an article discussing that free throw percentages haven't improved over the years doesn't even remotely support your point.

I don't know what you guys think will be accomplished by taking precious team practice time for a team that is now shooting 69% (and above the national average).  Where do you think shooting a million FTs and getting the muscle memory down (which doesn't exist) is going to take them?  85%?  Try 72% or 73%.  Bad use of that time.

You want a better FT shooting team, find another Novak. He was the difference in the middle of the decade.




StillAWarrior

Quote from: chren21 on January 05, 2011, 10:37:03 PM
Whining?  Who's whining?  I will say it again.  My opinion is different than yours, deal with that fact.

Good points StillAWarrior. 

Arguing over this isn't going to change anything anyways.

That article would support his position if it also said that players now practice free throws more than they did in the past (I.e., more practice but no improvement).  But it doesn't say that. My guess is that one of the reasons the percentage has remained constant over the years is that overall, the time spent practicing free throws has remained pretty constant. Some coaches do, others don't.   No change in overall practice equals no change in overall performance.
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

StillAWarrior

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 05, 2011, 10:44:38 PM
I don't know what you guys think will be accomplished by taking precious team practice time for a team that is now shooting 69% (and above the national average).  Where do you think shooting a million FTs and getting the muscle memory down (which doesn't exist) is going to take them?  85%?  Try 72% or 73%.  Bad use of that time.

You want a better FT shooting team, find another Novak. He was the difference in the middle of the decade.


I have neither complained about this team's free throw shooting, nor suggested that MU use precious team practice time to practice free throws. I merely pointed out that the article you cited in support of you position actually contradicts your position. If I didn't already understand that practicing free throws will, in fact, improve performance, your article certainly would have convinced me.

That said, tonight's game aside, I really don't have too much of a problem with this team's free throw shooting and I think Buzz has more important things to work on. But, I hope the players will take it upon themselves to practice more free throws because, as the article you quoted makes clear, it will improve their performance.
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

Tugg Speedman

Quote from: StillAWarrior on January 05, 2011, 10:45:58 PM
That article would support his position if it also said that players now practice free throws more than they did in the past (I.e., more practice but no improvement).  But it doesn't say that. My guess is that one of the reasons the percentage has remained constant over the years is that overall, the time spent practicing free throws has remained pretty constant. Some coaches do, others don't.   No change in overall practice equals no change in overall performance.

Yes because after 50 years no one has figured out a better way to do it so no one devotes any more time to it than they did in 1960.

As the article said D1 players shoot 69%.  We are shooting 69% this year.  Again I ask, if we practice with all the goofy sirens and running until you're out of breath, we are only going to improve a few percent.  That's meaningless and then when Junior misses another late game FT, you'll scream we are wasting or time doing all that.

Our FT% is what it is.  Accept it and move on.

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