We play some of the worst defense in the country

[Blackhat]

This deserves its own thread, it's so bad.

Buzz has proved to suck as a defensive coach.   

[muhoops1]

Watching Tinsley drive down the middle of the lane makes me want to puke.  This team is short on talent and effort.  Maybe we can pick up a couple of JC transfers that can't play D.

[muhoops1]

Jar left his man.  Nice D.  That is the Juco player of the year.

[Blackhat]

He's being taught this sh.t.   

Last year they played 2/3 of the Big East season playing slow(er) down, sag man to man tough d effectively.

This year it's Globetrotter, extend d try to stay with, no d horsesh.t

[GGGG]

Crowder switched because of the pick up top...I'd rather have him take that shot than the shot they gave up.

And I am so tired of the ball pressure far away from the basket.  We give up too many easy shots and make dumb fouls because of it.  Drives me nuts.

[77ncaachamps]

Crowder switched because of the pick up top...I'd rather have him take that shot than the shot they gave up.

And I am so tired of the ball pressure far away from the basket.  We give up too many easy shots and make dumb fouls because of it.  Drives me nuts.

agreed.

[chapman]

Transition defense was pathetic.  Like watching a grade school team that can't remember to get back on defense except being 9 years old isn't our excuse.  Half court defense wasn't bad, except Crowder got burned one too many times.

[karavotsos]

He's being taught this sh.t.   

Last year they played 2/3 of the Big East season playing slow(er) down, sag man to man tough d effectively.

This year it's Globetrotter, extend d try to stay with, no d horsesh.t

Could you explain this a little further.  First you say Buzz teaches bad defense.  Then you say they played good defense 2/3 of the year last year, but now they don't, and Buzz never taught good defense.  I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make or what you think is wrong with the way Buzz teaches defense.  The logic of your statements seem internally inconsistent.

[Blackhat]

Show me where I've said Buzz has never coached MU to play decent defense in a game.  He's done it occasionally his first two years.  But on the whole we've gotten worst each year statistically according to ken pom.

Top ten under Crean in D, next year under Buzz 50th in D, 57th in D , currently 64th in D. 

The worsening of our D has been quick and steady since Crean left.

[Doo]

I'd go with average talent, little effort and virtually no heart

 This team is short on talent and effort.  [/quote]

[NersEllenson]

Show me where I've said Buzz has never coached MU to play decent defense in a game.  He's done it occasionally his first two years.  But on the whole we've gotten worst each year statistically according to ken pom.

Top ten under Crean in D, next year under Buzz 50th in D, 57th in D , currently 64th in D.  

The worsening of our D has been quick and steady since Crean left.

What you fail to realize is that Buzz-Ball 101 says you make more free throws than your opponent attempts.  We win at that stat most nights..but not tonight.  Under Crean we did rank better defensively, yes, but at the expnese of being very foul prone, fouling well over the D1 Average, and we consistently were outshot at the free throw line as a result.

Just go take a look at the boxscore of Indiana's latest game with Penn State..you will see the stats quite clearly - Indiana 21 fouls to Penn State's 15.  Penn State shoots 26 free throws to Indiana's 8....this was a hallmark stat during the Crean years at MU...outshot from the free throw line in probably 85% of our games in the Big 3's years..

http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=303610084

[GGGG]

I'd go with average talent, little effort and virtually no heart

Are you kidding?  That's just crap.  Teams don't come back from double didgit second half deficits on the road without effort or heart.

[GGGG]

What you fail to realize is that Buzz-Ball 101 says you make more free throws than your opponent attempts.  We win at that stat most nights..but not tonight.  Under Crean we did rank better defensively, yes, but at the expnese of being very foul prone, fouling well over the D1 Average, and we consistently were outshot at the free throw line as a result.

Well, they don't foul, but they give up a ton of easy looks.  Stone Cold is right...the defense is too aggressive and too far away from the basket.

[77ncaachamps]

Show me where I've said Buzz has never coached MU to play decent defense in a game.  He's done it occasionally his first two years.  But on the whole we've gotten worst each year statistically according to ken pom.

Top ten under Crean in D, next year under Buzz 50th in D, 57th in D , currently 64th in D. 

The worsening of our D has been quick and steady since Crean left.

Honestly, you'd have to compare offenses to get a better assessment.

I believe the shift in defensive value has a lot to do with the lack of progress with skilled big men and more importantly, the transition to more of an up and down game (instead of Crean's half-court sets).

[NersEllenson]

Well, they don't foul, but they give up a ton of easy looks.  Stone Cold is right...the defense is too aggressive and too far away from the basket.

I won't disagree here..I was competely annoyed with seeing Tinsley go coast to coast for at least 2 scores..maybe even 3..no reason for that.  Better to just pick up at the halfcourt if you are going to risk that trying to pressure full court.  Yet..I will say that as a PG, that type of full court pressure does grind and grate at you over the course of the game.  Tinsely is a very solid PG..Diener-esque.

[MarquetteDano]

Well, they don't foul, but they give up a ton of easy looks.  Stone Cold is right...the defense is too aggressive and too far away from the basket.

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you but Buzz would say our interior defense is not good so if we don't pressure the ball easy entry passes into the post will kill us.

I don't have the answer but I do know that whilst many here complain about our offense it is clearly our defense and defensive rebounding which is costing us games.

[karavotsos]

Show me where I've said Buzz has never coached MU to play decent defense in a game.  He's done it occasionally his first two years.  But on the whole we've gotten worst each year statistically according to ken pom.

Top ten under Crean in D, next year under Buzz 50th in D, 57th in D , currently 64th in D. 

The worsening of our D has been quick and steady since Crean left.

Isn't that pretty much the title of your thread.  I'm not a KenPom apostle, so I really don't care about the ranking.  Also, it could be easily explained by the team on the floor.  Last year, even though we had seniors, they had little experience, no size, and not a lot of quickness.  This year Buzz is teaching a lot of first year players.  I understand that it looks worse when the defense gets beat because they play far out on the floor.  However, I think its a risk reward decision on Buzz's part with the type of team he wants to play with.  It was clear in the game today that we need Buycks primarily and Blue secondarily to play on the point to push them out.  I thought the switching was a lot better in this game.  The transition defense still isn't where it needs to be on misses.  However, I like Buzz's philosophy of pressure outside the 3-point line and teaching guys man-to-man defense.  If you like watching zone defense and games played within the 3-point line I can give you a list of teams to be a fan of.

[GGGG]

You can still pressure the guards outside the 3 point line without playing zone.  My problem is that MU gets broken down too many times when they extend the pressure that far.  You are right that Buzz is probably trying to create tempo and is willing to give up some points for the sake of creating chaos of some sort.

[Blackhat]

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you but Buzz would say our interior defense is not good so if we don't pressure the ball easy entry passes into the post will kill us.

I don't have the answer but I do know that whilst many here complain about our offense it is clearly our defense and defensive rebounding which is costing us games.

Buzz is on year three now.  He needs to find the pieces to rebound and play defense in the interior.   If he can't then it will destroy him.   Can't keep playing this defense if he wants to take MU to the next level, i.e., consistent top 25 team. 

If you sacrifice defense then close games will continually go against you when you can't get stops and in need of fundamental defense.

[karavotsos]

I agree they've gotten broken down.  All I can say at this point is that you've got to learn where the breakdowns are early to learn not to break down late.  The games that I'm thinking of specifically are NC State last year and Dayton two years ago.  I would like to add that this is essentially Buzz's 3rd one year team, so it's not as if he has had guys to create a cohesive unit.  Not an excuse.  Just saying that from my vantagepoint tonight was evidence that the defense is improving and will continue to improve throughout the year.  My favorite calls were the charge in the last minute (which could have been called several times throughout the game; their point guard was Mr. Chicken Wing) and the call on one of their post guards for hugging Otule behind him.  That means Otule was actually making an effort to front the post.  That would not have happened against Bucknell, or Wisconsin.

[CrazyEcho]

I think part of the reason the D looks bad sometimes is because we are very rarely committing stupid fouls that allow a player to get an "And-1" and are instead just letting them take the lay-up when we know we're out of position.

[Blackhat]

Honestly, karavastos and dano you've made some good points in this thread and I can see some of the things Buzz is trying to achieve. 


It was obvious we were more effective and  we won more last year when we slowed the tempo and played solid D.

 If anything it will be interesting to see what philosophy Buzz decides to stake his HCing career on going forward.

[karavotsos]

I personally believe it will be base man with pressure on the point and attempting to keep teams high.  Different zones will be mixed in to confuse teams.  Switching and generally deciding how to play screens will be dictated by scouts.  After tonight, it appears that with this team there will be more switching than last year.  But I think the way they play screens will vary throughout the game as well.  I like what they are attempting.  I just don't think they are there yet.  I think they should get more aggressive, rather than less.  Make the guys who aren't there yet catch up.

[StillWarriors]

Everyone used to piss and moan because we didn't pressure the ball and let teams easily hammer the ball into the post. Now we are too aggressive on the ball? I like the ball pressure; to me free throws and the inability to get some big boards and transition D decided the game.

[chren21]

Bad turnovers / poor rebounding and defensive play.

Yes I do have all the good plays listed too.  Not trying to just be negative but these stood out.

-Very early---DJO turnover on the baseline.  Otule looks to not be hustling back.  Give up quick layup.
-18:20 Buycks throws it away for a breakaway layup
-17:25 Djo drive and nice pass to Otule underneath.  Blocked leads to quick layup the other way.
-16:40 Butler gets beat baseline for an easy dunk.
-16:20 DJO drives 1 on 3 and misses.
-16:14 Otule comes out high to guard the ball screen.  Jae tries to help on CO’s man but gives up a layup.  DG and Chris need to figure out how to guard this.
-15:30 Blue and JC come in for Otule and Buycks. 
-15:23 Vander does not properly box out.  This is a good example of pure fundamentals.  He looks to box out but does not use his feet properly to stay between his man and the basket.  His man gets rebound, Blue then fouls him as he goes back up with it.
-14:45 Blue does not seem to try very hard at getting around screen to contest an open 3.
-13:10 Crowder rebound off missed 3.  Runs the break and gets MUGGED, no call.  Fulce ends up with it pass to Vander who takes it hard and gets fouled. (Banks in first FT, misses second…  16-11 Vandy)
-12:45 give up wide open three.  Fulce rebound.  Perfect example of where D breakdown could lead to problems.  When Butler leaves his man to cover for Junior, who lost his man,  JB’s man meanwhile is left wide open in front of the basket for a rebound that did not happen to go to there.  Instead went to Fulce who boxed out.
-12:10 give up 3 pointer to Tinsley.  Vander a touch late closing out.
-10:47 DG and DJO in.
-9:42 Gardner gives up offensive rebound.  Watch him CLEARLY get beat down the court.  He starts off ahead of his man but gets beat to the block.  Results in Taylor putback from the lane. (21-17 vandy)
-9:13 DG gets beat down the floor AGAIN.  His man gets the offensive board and results in Tinsley hitting a 10 footer.
-8:51 OK defense by MU, shot from baseline bounces long and DG’s man gets the offensive rebound.  Tuff bounce.  DG gets pulled.
-8:25 Butler gets smoked on a back door cut for a dunk.
-7:40 Junior misses open 3.  Crowder offensive rebound, passes to Junior, tuff pass but it did hit Junior in the hand.  Gets away for a breakaway layup.  (Vandy 27-17)
-6:23 Fulce tries baseline J off the secondary break.  Blocked.  Bad shot.
-5:00 Turnover by Fulce, bad pass.  Vandy gives it right back.
-2:07 Tinsley allowed to go coast to coast for layup (elbow catches Buycks) but Otule fouls him.  Makes one.
-1:58 Ewill in the game
-1:40 Ewill gets abused when he tries to box out.  Gives up offensive board, and easy put back.
-Great D by Vander to end the half.