Where is the leadership?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thanks.

Winning cures all.

But it's the leadership and maturity that helps teams get through the non-winning times....that's what typically makes a successful season.  The ability to manage the losing and turning it around.  The tough times call for leadership, whether that's in sports, politics, business, etc.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Rawdog...my point is that Pip struggled as a leader. At times he was great but at times he wasn't.

And don't drop the "I'm sure you are perfect" line. Lame.

You are both right. Pippen was clearly a leader of that team, but he often struggled in that role. Incidentally, Paxson thought enough of his leadership abilities to bring him back for a swan song at the end of his career. To deny he was somebody other players went to for advice or somebody who was a leader on the court is silly. He also made some pretty poor choices and that Knicks thing really jumps out.

I think Jimmy has the personality to be a team leader, but there may be other stronger personalities on the team. I'm going to guess, although I have no personal knowledge, that Buycks is that type of person.

[ChicosBailBonds]

One of the major elements missing from this year's squad is senior leadership. And, that void lays squarely in the tanning bed of the douche in Bloomington.

Last I checked we have three seniors on this team.  Are you suggesting that only the guy in Bloomington recruited kids that ended up as leaders and the current coach that recruited these Seniors doesn't?

[MerrittsMustache]

But it's the leadership and maturity that helps teams get through the non-winning times....that's what typically makes a successful season.  The ability to manage the losing and turning it around.  The tough times call for leadership, whether that's in sports, politics, business, etc.

True, but as someone else pointed out, I was speaking in terms of the fans' perspective.

[Lennys Tap]

Last I checked we have three seniors on this team.  Are you suggesting that only the guy in Bloomington recruited kids that ended up as leaders and the current coach that recruited these Seniors doesn't?

One of those seniors is hurt and may never play again. The other two are 2nd and 3rd years seniors. We have no 4 year seniors or even any 3 year juniors on our team because of Crean's departure. Hard to argue those facts.

[reinko]

I imagine Pip also regret's this movie.

[4everwarriors]

Orwell, maybe you missed the part where Buzz had to go Juco hunting to balance out the classes left behind by the Bloomington douche.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I imagine Pip also regret's this movie.

Was that photo taken when MU brought Scottie in to talk to the players Crean left behind?

[Lennys Tap]

Was that photo taken when MU brought Scottie in to talk to the players Crean left behind?

You're one of a handful that can literally make me laugh out loud.

[ChicosBailBonds]

One of those seniors is hurt and may never play again. The other two are 2nd and 3rd years seniors. We have no 4 year seniors or even any 3 year juniors on our team because of Crean's departure. Hard to argue those facts.

One can lead not just with actions on the court...much like DJ did when his ankle was busted.

Yes, we don't have any 4 year seniors, but we do have three seniors.  If we're worried about the ability of transfer players being able to lead as seniors since they aren't going to be here for four full years, then we might as well say we aren't going to take anyone but high school players from this day forward.  (Yes, I understand why we took the JUCOs, I'm just saying moving forward if for some strange reason this squelches the ability to lead, we may want to only take 4 year players if what you say is 3 and 2 year Seniors are unable to show leadership....which I don't buy by the way).

[Bob "Big Daddy" Wild]

I think more than leadership we miss Cubby and Mo's high basketball IQs, extra pass around the perimeter, and ability to knock down the 3 ball at a very high rate.

[Lennys Tap]

One can lead not just with actions on the court...much like DJ did when his ankle was busted.

What were we, 2-6 after DJ broke his foot? After a 23-4 start? That's what I call leadership!

[MUfan12]

What were we, 2-6 after DJ broke his foot? After a 23-4 start? That's what I call leadership!

This is ridiculous. How many wins would you place on leadership from the bench, Lenny? Especially against top-20 teams?

Fact is, Dominic was vocal, supportive, and did some coaching from the bench while he was out. He handled the situation with incredible maturity. He could have sulked, but still was there for his guys. That's leadership for me.

[MerrittsMustache]

I think more than leadership we miss Cubby and Mo's high basketball IQs, extra pass around the perimeter, and ability to knock down the 3 ball at a very high rate.

+1,000,000

[Lennys Tap]

This is ridiculous. How many wins would you place on leadership from the bench, Lenny? Especially against top-20 teams?

Fact is, Dominic was vocal, supportive, and did some coaching from the bench while he was out. He handled the situation with incredible maturity. He could have sulked, but still was there for his guys. That's leadership for me.

DJ was great after the injury and I'd never say different. My point was that players do their effective leadership on the court, not off it. Expecting Joe Fulce or DJ to have any significant impact on a games outcomes from the bench is folly.

[Marquette84]

One of those seniors is hurt and may never play again. The other two are 2nd and 3rd years seniors. We have no 4 year seniors or even any 3 year juniors on our team because of Crean's departure. Hard to argue those facts.

Wrong.  We have no 4 year seniors because Buzz was either unable to convince the players in that class to stay, or alternately he chose to encourage them to transfer.

THOSE are the facts.

Fact: None of the would-be seniors had left MU before we announced our new head coach.  They all waited to see who Crean's successor would be. 

Fact: In our two prior coaching transitions, almost no freshmen chose to leave.

Mike Deane recruited Nnamaka, Henry, Harris and Diggs as Freshman in his last year. All four stayed with MU until their senior year--Tom Crean's third season.

Kevin O'Neill recruited Abel Joseph, Shane Littles, Faisal Abraham, Anthony Pieper, and Chris Crawford--all were Freshmen in O'Neill's final season at MU, and all but Littles were at MU to see their senior year--Mike Deane's third season.  

But here's the real conundrum--if Buzz is as beloved as a coach as you claim (and Crean is equally despised)--why did Christopherson and Mbakwe bail so quickly AFTER Buzz was named the new coach?  If they were only staying because of Crean, wouldn't they have left on April 2nd?  

Here's the other interesting factor.  For Nnamaka, Henry, Harris, Diggs, Joseph, Abraham, Crawford and Pieper--their new coach was a complete stranger.  They were recruited by someone else, and never had any prior interaction with either Deane or Crean before those coaches were named to the job.  Yet those players stuck around--not just for the summer, but until they completed their senior seasons.   Kind of flies in the face of the contention that players won't play for a coach that didn't recruit them.   Mbakwe and Chirsopherson KNEW Buzz because Buzz was THEIR assistant coach for a year.  Despite that well established relationship, as soon as Buzz was named coach, Chiristopherson bailed, and Mbakwe wasn't too far behind.  

Buzz MUST bear some blame for failing to recognize that he would no longer have a leader and do something about it.  Dominic James was the team leader from day one.  Ditto with Wardle, Tony Miller, Travis Diener, etc.   Why didn't Buzz recruit a natural leader like that--someone who could lead the team without requiring three years of seasoning?  

Sorry, but leadership isn't something that's "switchable."  

Buzz should have had the foresight to look at his roster in 2008 and realize that his new class--Butler, Fulce, Otule--weren't the "step up and take charge" guys that he had with James, Hayward, McNeal etc.  In the very next class he should have gone out and found a leader--not a switchable who by definition is not a stand-above-the-crowd, go-to player.

Finally, I'll point out that in Crean's fourth season, we had ZERO four-year seniors to provide leadership (Krunti Hester being long gone). I think we did okay that season. 

[RawdogDX]

Rawdog...my point is that Pip struggled as a leader. At times he was great but at times he wasn't.

And don't drop the "I'm sure you are perfect" line. Lame.

The original post i responded to didn't say 'at times he wasn't great' it said he wasn't good.  That is what i objected to.  If you want to call him not great, fine.  But to say he wasn't a good leader, aka a bad leader or to compare him to Jimmy Butler is ridiculous.

He led the bulls to 55 win and was very close to the confrence titles and almost took the blazers to the finals even if you want to discount his 6 championship teams.   In the year without MJ he also lead the bulls in 4 statistical catagories.  At the very least he was good.

[Lennys Tap]

84-
As you and everyone who follows MU with even a modicum of interest knows, Mbakwe had already packed his bags before Crean left. BECAUSE the Tanned One departed he gave the idea of staying a brief thought but Buzz was unable to bridge the chasm TC had created between MU and Trevor. I don't know exactly what happened with Cristopherson, but I'm sure he was unhappy with his playing time under Crean and was concerned as to what his future was here regardless of who was the coach.

O'Neil's players did stay - he had the class to push them hard in that direction. As much as some of his guys wanted to follow him, Kevin said no. Crean, on the other hand, was already trying to steal an MU commit before the ink was dry on his contract and his players had learned of his defection via ESPN.

Don't take my word that the players much prefer Buzz to Crean - ask them. DJ, Wes, Jerel, Lazar, etc.

[ChicosBailBonds]

What were we, 2-6 after DJ broke his foot? After a 23-4 start? That's what I call leadership!

Who did we lose to?  As I recall, they were top 10 teams mostly, not unranked ones.  Those pesky details.

Per Ken Pom

lost to #3 UCONN...#1 seed that year
lost to #4 Louisville....#1 seed that year
lost to #5 Pittsburgh...#1 seed that year
lost to #15 Syracuse in OT...#3 seed that year
lost to #14 Villanova by 1 point...#3 seed that year
Beat St. John's
Beat Utah State

Pesky details

[Lennys Tap]

Who did we lose to?  As I recall, they were top 10 teams mostly, not unranked ones.  Those pesky details.

Per Ken Pom

lost to #3 UCONN...#1 seed that year
lost to #4 Louisville....#1 seed that year
lost to #5 Pittsburgh...#1 seed that year
lost to #15 Syracuse in OT...#3 seed that year
lost to #14 Villanova by 1 point...#3 seed that year
Beat St. John's
Beat Utah State

Pesky details

We were #8 in the country and 1st in the BEast. Maybe you think a bunch of losses and a win over woeful St Johns and a squeeker over 11th seeded Utah St were only possible because of DJ's leadership. I love him and am glad he was so vocal about supporting his teamates, but his cheering from the sidelines made zero difference in any of the final scores. Oh, and Santa won't really be sliding down your chimney this year. Sorry to be the bearer of such bad news.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Don't take my word that the players much prefer Buzz to Crean - ask them. DJ, Wes, Jerel, Lazar, etc.

You can find examples for and against like this until the cows come home.  The Cowboys players preferred Wade Phillips to Bill Parcells, too.  Dwade loves Crean.  Etc, etc.

Now, that's not meant to be a negative remark, just the reality that different strokes for different folks.  Some people are going to love one coach, hate another...no different than a boss, a teacher, etc.

There are some people that I had as mentors that I despised at the time, but looking back 10, 20 years later I now understand why they were pushing me so hard.  There are others that I got along with great and truly loved them.  Others are complete jerkoffs then and still are now. 

[Lennys Tap]

You can find examples for and against like this until the cows come home.  The Cowboys players preferred Wade Phillips to Bill Parcells, too.  Dwade loves Crean.  Etc, etc.

Now, that's not meant to be a negative remark, just the reality that different strokes for different folks.  Some people are going to love one coach, hate another...no different than a boss, a teacher, etc.

There are some people that I had as mentors that I despised at the time, but looking back 10, 20 years later I now understand why they were pushing me so hard.  There are others that I got along with great and truly loved them.  Others are complete jerkoffs then and still are now.  

Don't really care about Bill Parcells vs Wade Phillips, how much Wade likes TC or (no offense) your feelings about your various mentors. 84 was comparing Buzz to TC, and I was simply sharing the fact thatthose who played for both seem to prefer Buzz as a coach and as a human being.

[NersEllenson]

When did Buzz go tanning in Bloomington?  And why are you calling him a douche?

This year we have three seniors--and Buzz is responsible for recruiting all three.  Butler and Buycks were 100% Buzz recruits. Fulce was recruited by Buzz when he was Crean's assistant.  If those three players lack leadership skills, its because they either didn't have them when they were recruited, or the skills haven't been developed after they arrived.  

We all know that if Butler or Buycks or Fulce displayed anything close to the leadership ability of a Tony Miller, Brian Wardle, Travis Diener or Lazar Hayward, you'd give Buzz 100% of the credit.  So stop trying to pass the blame.

Interesting..the only reason this thread exists is due to the team losing to UW, Duke and Gonzaga.  If we won just 1 of those 3, more than likely the "leadership" of this team isn't even being questioned.   Due to the good work of Tom Crean..and continued good work by Buzz Williams...expectations for this program are as high as ever - probably the highest since 1978. 

I don't really care if Brian Wardle displayed great leadership..his teams pretty much sucked..we had not expectations for those teams..due to the aftermath of the Deane years and what Crean walked into.   Not to be a jack ass here..but what did Travis Diener's "leadership" translate to after Dwade was gone?  Two NIT appearances, one of which ended in the first round with a loss to Western Michigan..the other a 2nd round exit...

Leadership..isn't going to guarantee wins..nor is  it going to help DJO start shooting like he did last year, nor will it change the fact we basically have 2 freshman at the PG position..all of which are factors in this team losing to UW and Gonzaga...and so we lost to the defending national championship team..thought to be better than last yar's team by 5 points...darn...if only we had better leadership

[DaCoach]

The original post i responded to didn't say 'at times he wasn't great' it said he wasn't good.  That is what i objected to.  If you want to call him not great, fine.  But to say he wasn't a good leader, aka a bad leader or to compare him to Jimmy Butler is ridiculous.

He led the bulls to 55 win and was very close to the confrence titles and almost took the blazers to the finals even if you want to discount his 6 championship teams.   In the year without MJ he also lead the bulls in 4 statistical catagories.  At the very least he was good.

If you're going to take my words out of context, you obviously have few facts to present. I said After Michael left, Pippen was never able to assume a good leadership role on the teams he played for. That's not the same as calling him bad.

Pippen, in his 2 years without Jordan, was dumped in the 2nd round of playoffs. In his only year with the Rockets, the team lost in the 1st round. In his 4 years with Portland, which he joined after finishing 1st in the Pacific the prior year, they never made it out of the 1st round 3 years straight. No evidence of great leadership based upon those results.

[MUfan12]

There's only one place to find leadership.

Next to legendship, of course.