Who did Crean / Deane / KO target in CA but DIDN'T land?

[77ncaachamps]

Great get Buzz...

Let's hope Juan adapts to the winters...they're really not that bad.
There's a lot of warm bkb love from the MU faithful to keep him toasty for his four years!


But it got me thinking, who did Crean, Deane and KO target in CA but didn't land?

[TheTasteofGarlic]

Better question: How many top 100 players did Tom Crean target and how many of those did he sign?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Great get Buzz...

Let's hope Juan adapts to the winters...they're really not that bad.
There's a lot of warm bkb love from the MU faithful to keep him toasty for his four years!


But it got me thinking, who did Crean, Deane and KO target in CA but didn't land?

Not many.  I think the fairer question would be, if Buzz was coach during that time period of those coaches (horrible facilities, CUSA or Great Midwest, not much success in recent years as a program, etc) would he be going after California players (let alone landing them)?  My hunch is, no.

Buzz has a much better situation than any of those three did in terms of national presence (Final Four only a few years ago), Big East conference, great facilities, etc.  That gets you in the door a lot easier than a little CUSA school that had been to the Sweet 16 one time in the previous 20 years.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Better question: How many top 100 players did Tom Crean target and how many of those did he sign?

Really?

[hairy worthen]

Not many.  I think the fairer question would be, if Buzz was coach during that time period of those coaches (horrible facilities, CUSA or Great Midwest, not much success in recent years as a program, etc) would he be going after California players (let alone landing them)?  My hunch is, no.

Buzz has a much better situation than any of those three did in terms of national presence (Final Four only a few years ago), Big East conference, great facilities, etc.  That gets you in the door a lot easier than a little CUSA school that had been to the Sweet 16 one time in the previous 20 years.

Of course! Because it couldn't possibly be anything Buzz or his staff are doing.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Of course! Because it couldn't possibly be anything Buzz or his staff are doing.

You might want to read again what I wrote.  The original question was how many Californians were targeted by previous staffs.  Considering the plight of the program during those previous staffs, it wouldn't make much sense for them to go after kids 2000 miles away considering the state of the program, the lack of success, the lack of national prestige.  Thus, a question, in my opinion, that isn't really an apples to apples comparison.  The programs are much different now....IRONICALLY because of at least two of those men (TC and KO).

There was no knock on Buzz at all, but your ultra sensitive antenna sure got you there to find something that wasn't posted at all. 

[hairy worthen]

You might want to read again what I wrote.  The original question was how many Californians were targeted by previous staffs.  Considering the plight of the program during those previous staffs, it wouldn't make much sense for them to go after kids 2000 miles away considering the state of the program, the lack of success, the lack of national prestige.  Thus, a question, in my opinion, that isn't really an apples to apples comparison.  The programs are much different now....IRONICALLY because of at least two of those men (TC and KO).

There was no knock on Buzz at all, but your ultra sensitive antenna sure got you there to find something that wasn't posted at all. 
[/quote

No sensitive antenna here, I have cable.

If what you say is true, (which there is obviously some truth to it,) then you can't ever make any comparison because the situations were different as you said. So everyone should stop right?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Of course you can make comparisons, people do in life all the time.  But they should state the obvious assumptions\caveats or not get all defensive when someone else does.

I'm sorry that you have cable.  It's a cross you have to bear.

[Pakuni]

Not many.  I think the fairer question would be, if Buzz was coach during that time period of those coaches (horrible facilities, CUSA or Great Midwest, not much success in recent years as a program, etc) would he be going after California players (let alone landing them)?  My hunch is, no.

Buzz has a much better situation than any of those three did in terms of national presence (Final Four only a few years ago), Big East conference, great facilities, etc.  That gets you in the door a lot easier than a little CUSA school that had been to the Sweet 16 one time in the previous 20 years.

I know this has been through before, but since the same issues are being raised again, let's not forget that MU announced it was joining the Big East in November 2003, so Crean had 4+ years - essentially half his tenure - to sell the conference affiliation to recruits. However, with the possible exception of the 2005 class, his recruiting really never got any better despte getting in the door a lot easier.
Likewise, the Al was opened in October 2003 - and in the works at least a couple years before - so he also had elite facilities to pitch for 4+ years, and the promise of elite facilities long before that. And again, the recruiting never markedly improved. In fact, it's hard to argue that Crean's best class wasn't his first when he was recruiting for "a little CUSA school that had been to the Sweet 16 one time in the previous 20 years."

Seriously, Tom Crean did a lot of good things at MU, and I've never been among his strident bashers around here. But why do you always need to bend over backwards, often twisting logic and obscuring facts in the process, to defend and/or excuse his shortcomings? Is it just that you're obsessed with downplaying what Buzz has accomplished since he wasn't your guy?

[hairy worthen]

Of course you can make comparisons, people do in life all the time.  But they should state the obvious assumptions\caveats or not get all defensive when someone else does.

I'm sorry that you have cable.  It's a cross you have to bear.

I can over come it as long as the football is in HD. Thanks for the concern. I do miss sunday ticket though.

If you were stating the obvious assumptions/caveats thats fine, but it seems to me you are too quick to find ways to diminish the current coaching staffs acomplishments.
But I shouldn't state the obvious and i sure as heck don't want to get  into another crean v buzz pissing match

[jmayer1]

Not many.  I think the fairer question would be, if Buzz was coach during that time period of those coaches (horrible facilities, CUSA or Great Midwest, not much success in recent years as a program, etc) would he be going after California players (let alone landing them)?  My hunch is, no.

Buzz has a much better situation than any of those three did in terms of national presence (Final Four only a few years ago), Big East conference, great facilities, etc.  That gets you in the door a lot easier than a little CUSA school that had been to the Sweet 16 one time in the previous 20 years.

I've posted this, but I'll post it again since it seems relevant.

When TC was hired:

Last time MU was to the sweet 16 - 5 seasons
NCAA Tourney Appearances 4 of the last 7 seasons (although not the last 2)
2 NIT Appearances (including a championship)
Plenty of PT available
CUSA, Old Gym

When Buzz was hired:
Last time MU was to the sweet 16 (Final Four) - 5 seasons
NCAA Tourney Appearances 5 of the last 7 seasons (3 in a row)
2 NIT Appearances
Not much pt available, at least in the first year, except down low
Big East, The AL

Obviously, TC left the program better that he found it.  He left a team that nearly anybody could have coached to the tourney and obviously the Final 4 run was better than the Sweet 16 run.  However, you act like MU was a basketball abyss (just as Deane tried to convince the MU faithful). As others have said, it is strange that with all the supposed disadvantages Crean had in his first few years, why he was able to recruit his best class that first year. If anybody should be credited with the revival (including recruiting) of MU hoops, it is most certainly KO, not TC. It would be interesting (and probably sad) to think what MU hoops would be like if they had hired a guy like Deane instead of KO (despite his many faults) at that point in time.

[Pakuni]

If anybody should be credited with the revival (including recruiting) of MU hoops, it is most certainly KO, not TC. It would be interesting (and probably sad) to think what MU hoops would be like if they had hired a guy like Deane instead of KO (despite his many faults) at that point in time.

+ a lot

[ChicosBailBonds]

I give KO a ton of credit for bringing MU back from where it was....of course when he ducked out at year five, it only put us back in the "stepping stone" category again.  The way he did it, with his Tennessee sweatshirt on after the Duke loss was crap, but that's the way it goes.

We also benefitted greatly that KO was the coach during the non-internet era. 

But here's how I would categorize it.

KO kept us relevant and not spinning into Loyola (IL) territory.  For that, huge plus.

TC took the next huge step to make us not only relevant, but NATIONALLY relevant via huge success in the Big East, the Final Four, players to the NBA that are actually noticed and not sitting on the bench as the 12th man.

Hopefully Buzz can take us to the next step

[ChicosBailBonds]

I know this has been through before, but since the same issues are being raised again, let's not forget that MU announced it was joining the Big East in November 2003, so Crean had 4+ years - essentially half his tenure - to sell the conference affiliation to recruits. However, with the possible exception of the 2005 class, his recruiting really never got any better despte getting in the door a lot easier.
Likewise, the Al was opened in October 2003 - and in the works at least a couple years before - so he also had elite facilities to pitch for 4+ years, and the promise of elite facilities long before that. And again, the recruiting never markedly improved. In fact, it's hard to argue that Crean's best class wasn't his first when he was recruiting for "a little CUSA school that had been to the Sweet 16 one time in the previous 20 years."

Seriously, Tom Crean did a lot of good things at MU, and I've never been among his strident bashers around here. But why do you always need to bend over backwards, often twisting logic and obscuring facts in the process, to defend and/or excuse his shortcomings? Is it just that you're obsessed with downplaying what Buzz has accomplished since he wasn't your guy?

Please, read the first post and I think it will answer your question.  Context is your friend.  I'm not bashing Buzz at all....the initial question seemed to imply (perhaps I'm wrong) that the previous three administrations couldn't land kids from California.  My response was dead on right, for which you seem to completely ignore.

As for Crean's recruiting....I look at results Pakuni, not what a recruiting class is ranked.  Did we win 20+ games a year once we joined the Big East?  Yes.  Did we not land some fantastic players?  Yes.  Did we have major misses?  Yes.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I've posted this, but I'll post it again since it seems relevant.

When TC was hired:

Last time MU was to the sweet 16 - 5 seasons
NCAA Tourney Appearances 4 of the last 7 seasons (although not the last 2)
2 NIT Appearances (including a championship)
Plenty of PT available
CUSA, Old Gym

When Buzz was hired:
Last time MU was to the sweet 16 (Final Four) - 5 seasons
NCAA Tourney Appearances 5 of the last 7 seasons (3 in a row)
2 NIT Appearances
Not much pt available, at least in the first year, except down low
Big East, The AL

Seems you missed some data to make your argument, let me help you to fill out so it paints a more accurate story.  This is not a bashing or promoting of either one, it's simply using facts.  Timing is EVERYTHING in life and timing has a lot to do with how things shake out. 

This is why for the life of me I never understood the TC vs Buzz nonsense.  Why can't people appreciate them BOTH and acknowledge they both came into totally different circumstances.  Same goes for KO.  Did some great things for MU at a PIVOTAL time in the program.

When TC was hired:

Last time MU was to the sweet 16 - 5 seasons. 
Added:  Sweet 16 appearances in the last 20 years.  ONE
NCAA Tourney Appearances 4 of the last 7 seasons (although not the last 2)
Added:  NCAA Tourney wins last 5 years.  ONE
Added:  NCAA Tourney wins last 10 years.  THREE
Added:  Final Four appearances last 10 years.  ZERO.  Last 20 years.  ZERO
Added:  Top 5 players taken in the NBA Draft from MU.  ZERO
Added:  Top 5 player in the WORLD a Marquette graduate.  ZERO
2 NIT Appearances (including a championship)...we won a championship?  Who knew.  I've been told that's the LOSER'S TOURNAMENT per Lenny
Plenty of PT available
CUSA, Old Gym (this should count 10X it was such a disgraceful place to practice)
Consistent success in conference
Added:  Number of the top 10 scorers in Marquette history as upper classmen on the team.  ZERO


When Buzz was hired:
Last time MU was to the sweet 16 (Final Four) - 5 seasons
NCAA Tourney Appearances 5 of the last 7 seasons (3 in a row)
Added:  Sweet 16 appearances in the last 20 years.  ONE
2 NIT Appearances
Added:  NCAA Tourney wins last 5 years.  ONE
Added:  NCAA Tourney wins last 10 years.  FIVE
Added:  Final Four appearances last 10 years.  ONE.  Last 20 years.  ONE
Added:  Top 5 players taken in the NBA Draft from MU.  ONE
Added:  Top 5 player in the WORLD a Marquette graduate.  ONE
Not much pt available, at least in the first year, except down low (He took over a senior laden team where he could sell playing time)
Big East, The AL
Added:  Success in the Big East, showed we could compete at the highest level of college basketball...three plus double digit wins in conference play equaled by only a few other Big East programs

Added: Number of the top 10 scorers in Marquette history as upper classmen on the team.  FOUR

[Lennys Tap]

You might want to read again what I wrote.  The original question was how many Californians were targeted by previous staffs.  Considering the plight of the program during those previous staffs, it wouldn't make much sense for them to go after kids 2000 miles away considering the state of the program, the lack of success, the lack of national prestige.  Thus, a question, in my opinion, that isn't really an apples to apples comparison.  The programs are much different now....IRONICALLY because of at least two of those men (TC and KO).

There was no knock on Buzz at all, but your ultra sensitive antenna sure got you there to find something that wasn't posted at all. 

I agree with everything you wrote. TC left Buzz with a much stronger foundation than he himself inherited. That said, TC appeared to have plateaued at MU. I think even he would agree that he took Marquette as far as he could and it was one of the reasons he left. Buzz thinks MU has a much higher ceiling and everything he's done confirms it.
When Buzz was hired, most MU fans hoped (but doubted) that he would MAINTAIN the program. Taking it to a new (higher) level wasn't even part of the discussion. Two and a half years later virtually no one sees maintainance as the goal. Most would say that we've already moved past that.
I know you are loathe to judge a coach until he's put in 4-5 years, but I have a question. How long did it take you to decide that KO was an upgrade to Dukiet or that TC was better for the program than Deane? By your (I think) stated standards it would have been after KO was gone and after TC took us to the Final 4. For me it about 6 months into KO's term and 18-24 months into Crean's. Is it just a case of me being satisfied making a decision based on 90-95% probability where you want 100%?

[jmayer1]

I didn't miss anything.  There are about a billion different facts you can put into the arguement.  I used just basic ones off the top of my head.  A lot of the ones you posted said the same things I already brought up in a different manner. The biggest one you included was DWade.  Nobody can deny that his 2 years at MU brough untolds amount of publicity, excitement, name recognition...etc to the school.

You say you don't understand the "TC vs Buzz nonsense" but yet you are always one of the first to defend TC whenever somebody brings him up. You rallied to his defense when people wondered when the last time we got a high California recruit was and why TC/Deane/KO were not successful out there, pointing at all these advantages that Buzz has over TC/Deane/KO. Yet, when somebody asks you a point blank question, you refuse to answer: Why, with all those advantages in the later years, was TC never able to bring in a class nearly as successful as his first one?

[Pakuni]

My response was dead on right, for which you seem to completely ignore.

Declaring one's own post as "Dead on right" does not make it so. You're partially correct. when Crean arrived, the program was in lesser shape than when he left. I'm not sure anyone disputes that. However, you seem to be implying that those conditions (i.e. CUSA, Old Gym, etc.) persisted throughout his tenure, and therefore excuse some of his recruiting failures.

As for Crean's recruiting....I look at results Pakuni, not what a recruiting class is ranked.

Fair enough. Look at results. The results show that some of Crean's best recruiting took place early in his MU tenure, back when he had the conditions (i.e. CUSA, Old Gym, etc.) that you say handicapped him. That's my point ... you're arguing that Buzz has it easier than Crean, but the reality is that only was the case in Crean's first few years. And it's in those years he arguably had his best recruiting successes. In terms of on-court success, Crean's teams didn't improve with recruiting conditions. In fact, for a time they got worse (see: 2003/2004 classes, 2004/2005 seasons). When they've recruited on equal footing (i.e. Big East affiliation, The Al, etc.) it doesn't seem Buzz has done any worse than Crean, and arguably has done better. Of course, we won't know for sure until we see how teams recruited entirely by Buzz fare on the court, but I don't think even you would disagree the early returns look promising.
 

Did we win 20+ games a year once we joined the Big East?  Yes.  Did we not land some fantastic players?  Yes.  Did we have major misses?  Yes.

I think thestandards you're setting might be a bit low. Winning 20 games in the Big East is a nice accomplishment, but not exactly a rare one. Nine Big East teams won 20 games last year, i.e. more than half the conference. Eight teams did it in 2008-09. Nine teams in 2007-08. In fact, since the expasnion, there's never been a season when fewer than half the conference's team won 20 or more games.
And even the bottom feeders of the conference have landed "some" fantastic players (see: Dar Tucker, Mac Koshwal).

Again, I'm not trying to bash Crean here. He did many good - and even great - things at Marquette. But I do think you're making excuses for why he was unable to accomplish some things, and wrongly arguing that he had it so much tougher than his successor.

[TheTasteofGarlic]

The shameful manner in which Crean departed negates any good will he may have built up. He is a user and a hypocrite.

[77ncaachamps]

Mods: Can you delete or migrate to a new thread all of the posts debating Crean and not addressing the question?

I understand that one must figure in the facilities, blah, blah, blah.

But I just wanted to know THE CALIFORNIA RECRUITS who were targeted by the aforementioned coaches.
The purpose was to compare recruiting strategies and/or dispel the recruiting myths about the coaches.

FWIW, Buzz DIDN'T have to recruit a CA person for CA-sake (maybe he did, who knows?). He's stated he'll go anywhere and everywhere to get the talent he needs.

[Pakuni]

Mods: Can you delete or migrate to a new thread all of the posts debating Crean and not addressing the question?

May I suggest that if you don't want to read another discussion about Tom Crean, then perhaps you shouldn't create a post hat specifically asks about Tom Crean?

As for CA recruits, Crean was recruiting Justin Hawkins, who ended up at Utah then New Mexico State and Renaldo Woolridge, who ended up at Tennessee. Scout says MU offered Elston Turner (Washington), but I don't remember that. May be true, I just don't recall.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I didn't miss anything.  There are about a billion different facts you can put into the arguement.  I used just basic ones off the top of my head.  A lot of the ones you posted said the same things I already brought up in a different manner. The biggest one you included was DWade.  Nobody can deny that his 2 years at MU brough untolds amount of publicity, excitement, name recognition...etc to the school.

You say you don't understand the "TC vs Buzz nonsense" but yet you are always one of the first to defend TC whenever somebody brings him up. You rallied to his defense when people wondered when the last time we got a high California recruit was and why TC/Deane/KO were not successful out there, pointing at all these advantages that Buzz has over TC/Deane/KO. Yet, when somebody asks you a point blank question, you refuse to answer: Why, with all those advantages in the later years, was TC never able to bring in a class nearly as successful as his first one?

What point blank question have I not answered?  Is it that last question?  I've said time and time again, I don't believe in class ratings...it's about what you get done on the court.  Steve Lavin had the number one recruiting class 3 times in his career and a top 5 another time...I rest my case.  Secondly, one year's top 10 class could be ranked 25th the year later with the same kids...each year is different based on what is at hand in that particular class.  Now, you may not like that answer, but I've certainly given you an answer.  I also think that when you're in that long at a certain position you do plateau...I believe Lenny is right.  That's also why I say time and time again not to pass judgment on someone 2 years in.  Will Buzz "plateau" in year 5 or 6?  Do any of you know?  Of course not.  Yet you're judging people on an oranges to cadillacs comparison.  Both in terms of what they had to work with and in terms of where they are in their cycle of coach.  Why did Bob Knight recruit much worse AFTER three national titles then when he was winning them?  Just one example of many.

I did not rally to HIS defense....if you READ what I wrote, I spoke of all THREE previous administrations/coaches...TC, MD, KO...yet YOU read that as me coming to TC's defense.  This is some of the nonsense I talk of.  Some of you literally can't read what I write and assume something that isn't there.  Was I just defending TC?  Nope.  Did you accuse me of that?  You sure as hell did.

I'

[ChicosBailBonds]

 
I think thestandards you're setting might be a bit low. Winning 20 games in the Big East is a nice accomplishment, but not exactly a rare one. Nine Big East teams won 20 games last year, i.e. more than half the conference. Eight teams did it in 2008-09. Nine teams in 2007-08. In fact, since the expasnion, there's never been a season when fewer than half the conference's team won 20 or more games.
And even the bottom feeders of the conference have landed "some" fantastic players (see: Dar Tucker, Mac Koshwal).

How many of those also won double digit Big East conference games three years running?  That was really the bigger accomplishment which I was trying to put out there.

The fact of the matter is, and it's not even remotely arguable despite 77Champs blah blah blah comments, each of the MU coaches has had a start that is totally different from the other.  KO took over a crap pile and after a mixed effort that ended nicely (let's not forget he had the second worst season in MU history also), he left and made it look like a crap pile again.  Crean took over less of a crap pile but made it into something we haven't seen in 30 years.  Buzz took over an OUTSTANDING situation (great facilities, great conference, great senior players, recent success with Final Four and NBA Players) and he's done great to maximize it.

But the comparisons are so different due to where they started, the comparison are beyond stupid, in my opinion.  Timing is EVERYTHING!  Does TC do as well as Buzz if he walked in here as an assistant from MSU in 2008?   Does Buzz do as well in 1999 coming into MU as an assistant from Texas A&M and where MU was in 1999?   How would Rick Majerus do coming into 2008...hell, how would Bob Dukiet do?  We'll never know.  Buzz has done a great job of keeping things going, we'll see over the long haul if he can duplicate some of the things his predecessor(s) did. I sure hope so.  Another Final Four would be terrific.  90% graduation would be awesome.  No NCAA violations is a must.  Etc, etc.

[TheTasteofGarlic]

  Crean

He is still a betraying sonuvagun if there ever was one.

[ChicosBailBonds]

He is still a betraying sonuvagun if there ever was one.

Thanks Medicine Hat...why did you "betray" your original username?  You betrayer, you.