BE thinking about adding TCU

[ChicosBailBonds]

would the BE have any chance at stealing the Eastern teams out of the Big 12 as it slowly bleeds to death?

Kansas and Mizzou come immediately to mind as teams that might be willing to listen, particularly after being left at the altar by the Big 10. 

(sorry if this is totally ignorant of a major fact or two, just brainstorming)

As long at the Big 12 has their own BCS bid in place, I don't see why any schools would want to leave.  The Big 12 is a better football conference and a top basketball conference.  Only if the Big 12 imploded would that opportunity present itself, IMO.

[goodgreatgrand]

"TCU and Big East officials have discussed the Horned Frogs joining the conference, according to several sources close to the situation.

TCU has met with Big East officials within the past 30 days to discuss the logistics of a move by TCU in either the 2011 or 2012 seasons, according to a source with knowledge of the situation.

TCU athletic director Chris Del Conte has been unavailable for comment while on business in New York and Philadelphia the past few days."

http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/09/29/2506252/tcu-big-east-have-discussed-frogs.html

The beginnning of the All-America Conference.

[MarkCharles]

"TCU and Big East officials have discussed the Horned Frogs joining the conference, according to several sources close to the situation.

TCU has met with Big East officials within the past 30 days to discuss the logistics of a move by TCU in either the 2011 or 2012 seasons, according to a source with knowledge of the situation.

TCU athletic director Chris Del Conte has been unavailable for comment while on business in New York and Philadelphia the past few days."

http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/09/29/2506252/tcu-big-east-have-discussed-frogs.html

The beginnning of the All-America Conference.

So is this the Big East putting this together, or a consortium of just the football school from the BE? It seems illogical that the conference would expand only to break up shortly thereafter. The BE is a body that is interested in preserving itself, not growing itself to the size where it would be easier for the football only schools to break free.

To me, it seems logical that the BE would be doing this as a whole, with the input of the football schools.

I'm not trying to call you out, just hoping for an explanation. I am a bit confused as to how adding a football power to a conference that needs more football powers to survive is a step towards that conference breaking up. This seems like a very positive step for continuity of the BE to me.

[goodgreatgrand]

So is this the Big East putting this together, or a consortium of just the football school from the BE? It seems illogical that the conference would expand only to break up shortly thereafter. The BE is a body that is interested in preserving itself, not growing itself to the size where it would be easier for the football only schools to break free.

To me, it seems logical that the BE would be doing this as a whole, with the input of the football schools.

I'm not trying to call you out, just hoping for an explanation. I am a bit confused as to how adding a football power to a conference that needs more football powers to survive is a step towards that conference breaking up. This seems like a very positive step for continuity of the BE to me.

If Nova goes to FBS status, everything will be great. If they dont and TCU or another program joins, the football schools will get their 9th member and basketball will get their...17th member. And, going forward, it will only continue to make more sense if the BE continues to add schools with football programs. Nine members is fine, but getting to twelve is obviously ideal. In that case, there would be 20 basketball schools. I dont think the football schools would want to stick around under that scenario, especially when they would have the voting majority.

New Conference:TCU, Rutgers, USF, UConn, WVU, 'Ville, Cincy, Cuse, Pitt
Big East: MU, DePaul, Nova, GTown, Prov, SJU, SHU, plus...

Not sure what ND would do if this was to happen.

[GGGG]

If Nova goes to FBS status, everything will be great. If they dont and TCU or another program joins, the football schools will get their 9th member and basketball will get their...17th member. And, going forward, it will only continue to make more sense if the BE continues to add schools with football programs. Nine members is fine, but getting to twelve is obviously ideal. In that case, there would be 20 basketball schools. I dont think the football schools would want to stick around under that scenario, especially when they would have the voting majority.

New Conference:TCU, Rutgers, USF, UConn, WVU, 'Ville, Cincy, Cuse, Pitt
Big East: MU, DePaul, Nova, GTown, Prov, SJU, SHU, plus...

I think the football schools might realize that they'll get more $$ per school being on their own even for basketball.  Let's face it, of the top basketball programs in the BE, UConn, WVU, Louisville, Syracuse and Pitt are football schools...on the basketball side you just have a couple.

[goodgreatgrand]

I think the football schools might realize that they'll get more $$ per school being on their own even for basketball.  Let's face it, of the top basketball programs in the BE, UConn, WVU, Louisville, Syracuse and Pitt are football schools...on the basketball side you just have a couple.

Add USF and WVU to that list as well. 
If a conference was comprised of TCU, Rutgers, USF, UConn, WVU, 'Ville, Cincy, Cuse and Pitt and the conference receives $1M for every team that makes the NCAA tournament, this conference is looking at $5M virtually every single year. Throw in the roughly $500k for each win in the tournament and divide that number by 9, and that's the pay-out per school just from the ncaa tournament. That would sure beat out any pay-out from a 17-20 team conference.

[Clarence]

The basketball only schools should be insisting on adding a Basketball school as well if TCU were to get invited.  This woulld even out the voting, schedules and divisions as well as provide stability for the Basketball only schools in case of a break up.  

My top three would be:

1. St. Louis - Large/medium TV market, Central Time Zone, Open up Missouri for recruiting
2. Butler - Medium TV market, Great name recognition, Indiana BBall talent
3. Gonzaga - What the hell, if we're going to bring someone in, let's get the best.

I excluded all  A 10 schools, because I don't see how they add any new markets.

[TheRock]

The basketball only schools should be insisting on adding a Basketball school as well if TCU were to get invited.  This woulld even out the voting, schedules and divisions as well as provide stability for the Basketball only schools in case of a break up.  

My top three would be:

1. St. Louis - Large/medium TV market, Central Time Zone, Open up Missouri for recruiting
2. Butler - Medium TV market, Great name recognition, Indiana BBall talent
3. Gonzaga - What the hell, if we're going to bring someone in, let's get the best.

I excluded all  A 10 schools, because I don't see how they add any new markets.

St. Louis is in the A 10....good one

[Clarence]

That's what I get for posting pre lunch.

[Aughnanure]

As long at the Big 12 has their own BCS bid in place, I don't see why any schools would want to leave.  The Big 12 is a better football conference and a top basketball conference.  Only if the Big 12 imploded would that opportunity present itself, IMO.

As someone from Kansas City, who follows Kansas City and Big 12 sports insiders a lot, it is a FACT that the Big 12 will die. So, of course the other schools are looking for a way out -  the official TV deal isnt even on paper or signed or anything! The league has 5 years max, and believe me, if Mizzou gets offered to the Big 10 and Kansas to the Pac 10, they are gone yesterday -  no question. Now, if it is the Big East, Kansas and Missouri will demand to include at least Kansas State and possible Iowa State in any move.

The only possible way for the Big 12 to survive is to add BYU and Notre Dame (which means it isn't going to happenb). Arkansas ain't coming, Memphis only brings basketball and no national following. Not saying Notre Dame would join (I think BYU would jump at the chance), but in the Big 12 everyone can have their own network, and something could possibly be worked out with the schedule so Notre Dame (and all Big 12) can have 5 Non-Cons or something like that.

Texas is simply waiting until their TV network is up and running so when they finally do jump to the Pac-10, they won't be barred from having a TV network.

[ChicosBailBonds]

As someone from Kansas City, who follows Kansas City and Big 12 sports insiders a lot, it is a FACT that the Big 12 will die. So, of course the other schools are looking for a way out -  the official TV deal isnt even on paper or signed or anything! The league has 5 years max, and believe me, if Mizzou gets offered to the Big 10 and Kansas to the Pac 10, they are gone yesterday -  no question. Now, if it is the Big East, Kansas and Missouri will demand to include at least Kansas State and possible Iowa State in any move.

The only possible way for the Big 12 to survive is to add BYU and Notre Dame (which means it isn't going to happenb). Arkansas ain't coming, Memphis only brings basketball and no national following. Not saying Notre Dame would join (I think BYU would jump at the chance), but in the Big 12 everyone can have their own network, and something could possibly be worked out with the schedule so Notre Dame (and all Big 12) can have 5 Non-Cons or something like that.

Texas is simply waiting until their TV network is up and running so when they finally do jump to the Pac-10, they won't be barred from having a TV network.

There are certainly some scenarios where the Big 12 dies and others that don't go down that path.  Texas wants the Pac Ten academic pedigree but I'm not convinced they are going out west without some major concessions from the Pac Ten...will they get those concessions?

[Aughnanure]

The basketball only schools should be insisting on adding a Basketball school as well if TCU were to get invited.  This woulld even out the voting, schedules and divisions as well as provide stability for the Basketball only schools in case of a break up.  

My top three would be:

1. St. Louis - Large/medium TV market, Central Time Zone, Open up Missouri for recruiting
2. Butler - Medium TV market, Great name recognition, Indiana BBall talent
3. Gonzaga - What the hell, if we're going to bring someone in, let's get the best.

I excluded all  A 10 schools, because I don't see how they add any new markets.

People don't think this may happen for some reason, but it is the only way Marquette and DePaul got in last time - they wanted to maintain the voting balance. This is probably where the league simply splits off, but I would bet the Basketball-only schools will want 1 basketball school for every 1 football school added....not that they'll get it

Oh, and Xavier is by far the first one to be added (natural rivalry with Cincy). Furthermore, I don't see the basketball only school going outside of Catholic schools since they never have before (UMass, Wichita St, Charlotte and Butler wouldve all been good choices), so there is more a sense of unity between the universities when they have to stand up against the football schools.

My Top 4, then, would be:

Xavier
St. Louis
Creighton
Dayton

 

[Aughnanure]

There are certainly some scenarios where the Big 12 dies and others that don't go down that path.  Texas wants the Pac Ten academic pedigree but I'm not convinced they are going out west without some major concessions from the Pac Ten...will they get those concessions?

From what Ive heard and read, the Pac-10 isnt as egalitarian as some seem to think. They are not as ridiculously unequal as the Big 12, but they aren't the SEC. The point I tried to make was that Texas mainly wants its own TV network to cash in on, and keeping the Big 12 temporarily alive allows them to set up that network so when they do jump, another conference will have to allow them in with their separate TV network that only benefits UT. 

I have a hard time believing a conference isn't going to allow Texas in because they have their own separate network. Texas is the linchpin in all conference realignments, we have only seen small rumblings now, but when they move it will be a mess.

[Aughnanure]

Here are our options:

[goodgreatgrand]

There would have to be an agreement prior to a football school being added that another basketball-only school would be added later. Otherwise, it would never happen because the football schools would have the voting majority. Regardless, since the contract that binded all of the schools together expired in June, there is probably less of a need to make sure everyone is happy.

[GGGG]

Nice map...he spelled Milwaukee wrong.

[Aughnanure]

Nice map...he spelled Milwaukee wrong.

Haha he did. Its on Wikipedia by the way. They also have similar maps for the different football divisions and so on.

[ChicosBailBonds]

From what Ive heard and read, the Pac-10 isnt as egalitarian as some seem to think. They are not as ridiculously unequal as the Big 12, but they aren't the SEC. The point I tried to make was that Texas mainly wants its own TV network to cash in on, and keeping the Big 12 temporarily alive allows them to set up that network so when they do jump, another conference will have to allow them in with their separate TV network that only benefits UT. 

I have a hard time believing a conference isn't going to allow Texas in because they have their own separate network. Texas is the linchpin in all conference realignments, we have only seen small rumblings now, but when they move it will be a mess.

That's part of the issue.  The Pac Ten is completely equal.  Total equal shares for everyone.  Texas doesn't want to play that game.  They have a sweetheart deal with the Big 12 where the sharing isn't equal.  So why would they go to the Pac Ten and get an equal share and thus turn that advantage over?  Or will the Pac Ten cave in to give Texas all they want?

[goodgreatgrand]

PAC10/Texas aside, is there any logical reason for the BE to add another basketball-only school assuming they are very interested in adding a football school and will add one perhaps by the end of the year? I mean...the BEast's biggest downfall is that they are too basketball-centric. Why the hell would they add another basketbal-only school? To piss off the full-time members? Out of curiosity, how many other conferences have "part-time" members? I know UChicago is part of the B10 from a research standpoint and non-revenue generating sports, but are there other examples? I guess I would just rather get on with the inevitable and see a split happen. Better to do it now with Lavin at SJU anyways. There is nothing more dumb than being a basketball super conference when football drives the bus. Does it really make sense to have a 20 team basketball conference and a 12 team football conference? The numbers clearly dont work.

[Aughnanure]

That's part of the issue.  The Pac Ten is completely equal.  Total equal shares for everyone.  Texas doesn't want to play that game.  They have a sweetheart deal with the Big 12 where the sharing isn't equal.  So why would they go to the Pac Ten and get an equal share and thus turn that advantage over?  Or will the Pac Ten cave in to give Texas all they want?

Maybe Im not explaining this correctly. No one wants Texas to have their own TV network separate from a conference network (like the Big Ten's). Just conservative estimates have Texas being able to make $15-20 million per year on their own network (and thats a conservative estimate). Texas is the one school that could get their network into every TV market in Texas, and probably even further than that.

Texas will accept a deal to join another conference if the conference TV money is equal, but they'll want to bring in their own network as well and not share a cent of that. That's how Texas is going to upend the competition, they will have an extra TV deal providing them equal, or more, of what their conference deal will.  Basically while everyone else just has one deal and is playing fair, Texas is doubling their money right in front of you.

My information on the Pac10 is a bit different than yours I think. Though they are pretty equal comapred to the Big 12, they are not the same as SEC, with Vandy getting the exact same money as Florida.

From a Seattle Times article earlier this year:

"Since 1986, the participants in a televised Pac-10 football game divide 55 percent of the TV booty. The 10 schools share equally in the other 45 percent. There have been occasional challenges to the agreement, but mostly just a series of tweaks over the years to reflect new TV partnerships.

It's the way of the world in the Pac-10, where the imbalance in shared TV revenue, and TV's tilt toward the booming market in Los Angeles, creates an annual gap of as much as $4 million to $5 million between USC and a have-not school like Washington State."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/budwithers/2012384965_withers18.html?syndication=rss

[Aughnanure]

PAC10/Texas aside, is there any logical reason for the BE to add another basketball-only school assuming they are very interested in adding a football school and will add one perhaps by the end of the year? I mean...the BEast's biggest downfall is that they are too basketball-centric. Why the hell would they add another basketbal-only school? To piss off the full-time members? Out of curiosity, how many other conferences have "part-time" members? I know UChicago is part of the B10 from a research standpoint and non-revenue generating sports, but are there other examples? I guess I would just rather get on with the inevitable and see a split happen. Better to do it now with Lavin at SJU anyways. There is nothing more dumb than being a basketball super conference when football drives the bus. Does it really make sense to have a 20 team basketball conference and a 12 team football conference? The numbers clearly dont work.

Your point makes sense if you ARE NOT a basketball-only school. Marquette and DePaul only got into the Big East because the basketball-only schools wanted to keep the voting balance (and probably why they only look at other similar Catholic schools- loyalty). If the Big East wants to bring in more football schools the basketball schools will most likely demand one of two things:

1) Change the voting structure so the 8 basketball only schools can vote together and still be able to veto anything the football schools want (such as moving conference headquarters or, later, splitting the conference can letting the football schools keep the Big east name).

2) Demand to add an equal amount of basketball-only schools to maintain the balance - Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis or Creighton are the obvious candidates, but possibly UMass, Butler, Wichita St or Charlotte if they go outside of the Catholic realm.

If you are a Marquette fan you should be wanting them to add basketball only schools to the league because it ensures Marquette's survival and existence in the conference. Just think how easy it would be for the football only schools to split once they get the voting majority and only bring Villanova and Georgetown with them (if they even do that). Also, I think a 24 team basketball conference with 6 or 4 divisions would be pretty cool and fun to watch (not saying it would work long-term at all....but would be pretty entertaining while it lasted).

[goodgreatgrand]

New rumor from the same person that sid a TCU invite was on its way (before the national media caught on).

"Big East Expansion
I told you so.....
Here is my cred. For those that remember the origonal post... About three to four weeks ago I wrote that the Big East was looking to expand and that TCU was in their plans. I also mentioned that the first "super conference" would be with TCU and several other teams. (orignally I speculated that it would be non AQ's when I was told that the Big East was looking at Super Conf. status. Now the media has picked up on other conversations and it has become a huge rumor.

Here is your next inside information. Take it or leave it....TCU is apparently, according to interns (just like before...AND I WAS RIGHT), a big piece to secure several teams. Now, I have been given some specific names being offered. (Vilanova is not a deciding factor according to my sources and is not actually going to be accredited full status. Maybe its a misdirection tactic or something... I dont know, but both interns said that Villanova will not be accepted into the current outline) TCU has specified that they do not want certain teams in the New Big East. ie. Baylor, Houston or SMU. Thats right TCU does not want Houston or SMU in the new Big East.

Surprise, surpriese! Some of the teams that were mentioned by the interns were surprising to say the least. Most teams mentioned were in the ACC and Big 12-2 not other non AQ's. This was a surprise to me considering the opposite has been mentioned. The Big East is also talking about its own network with the Big 10 after its current contract runs out. If true, this could be the standing ground that the Big East needs. It seems to be going after a first strike campaign while everyone else is sleeping till seasons end. Prelim talks have been made with Virginia Tech, Clemson, TCU, Texas Tech, Kansas, KState, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State.

Conference outline:

TCU
Tech
Kansas
KState
Oklahoma
Okie light
S Florida
Lou.

West Virginia
V Tech
Rutgers
Pitt
Conn
Syra
Clemson
Cin.

How bout them apples?"

Seems far fetched, to say the least. However, if this is the type of thinking Tagliabue is doing, then he was the right guy to bring in. Regardless, I dont see Oklahoma walking away from the Red River Shootout and I dont see ACC teams leaving for this new conference. On the other hand, I could imagine a scenario in which Kansas, KState and Tech leave the B12 at the same time Texas tries to launch their network.

[GGGG]

If this comes to pass, I'll eat my foot.

Seriously, Oklahoma isn't going to the BE.  They aren't thrilled with the B12, but the state of Texas is too important to them as a University to drop that affiliation for this kind of thing.  Okie State is in the same boat.  Tech is a little bit of an outlier, but I can't see them leaving a conference with Texas and A&M.

Now Kansas, Kansas State and TCU...*that* I could possibly see.  (EDIT:  Actually after reflecting on it some more, I doubt Kansas or Kansas State would consider it either.  Even though it's unequal, the money is better in the B12.)

[goodgreatgrand]

I dont think it is implied (or even possible) that this 'new' conference is the Big East. B12 teams made between $6-12M (excluding Texas). The average BE pay-out for the football schools is $7M. I'd think a network would make up the difference since I cant imagine the B12 starting a network at the same time Texas builds their own. 

[Aughnanure]

If this comes to pass, I'll eat my foot.

Seriously, Oklahoma isn't going to the BE.  They aren't thrilled with the B12, but the state of Texas is too important to them as a University to drop that affiliation for this kind of thing.  Okie State is in the same boat.  Tech is a little bit of an outlier, but I can't see them leaving a conference with Texas and A&M.

Now Kansas, Kansas State and TCU...*that* I could possibly see.  (EDIT:  Actually after reflecting on it some more, I doubt Kansas or Kansas State would consider it either.  Even though it's unequal, the money is better in the B12.)

Kansas State and Kansas better do it! They would be the two North teams most screwed by any realignment (okay, Iowa State is a little more screwed) -  anyone remember their names popping up anywhere? Nope, adn they should be scared and looking for a more stable long-term conference. At least Missouri got teased by the Big 10. I cant imagine KSU and Kansas not jumping ship, the Big 12 is like purgatory - we're all moving on soon, just not sure when.

The Oklahoma schools are not going, and Im not sure why Missouri wasn't mentioned as they would be a perfect fit with KSU and Kansas. Also, Tech? I would think they would be just sitting pretty with Texas and be one of the 4 teams to move to the PAC (along with OK, OKst) when they expand to 16. A&M wants the SEC, I dont see them going with UT in the end (though it could be close)...so Tech will be the benefactor in that.

I feel TCU is going to have to give in on Houston at least though, that's such a huge market to ignore, especially if its only because a non-AQ schools doesnt want them