Quincy Miller has Marquette on his list

[Marquette84]

  Buzzes first two classes are arguably as strong as Creans only two good classes in 9 years.  crean signed 2 good classes in 9 years the class of Wade, odb, merrit, etc. and the 3 amigoes class.  his other classes apart form 3 or 4 good players were not very good at all.  Buzz has signed two top 20 classes in a row. 

I made a similar point a while back, suggesting that Buzz had more talent last year than Crean's least talented class of 2004.  At that time most people disagreed with me.

Fast forward a few months, we now have people arguing that not only was Buzz's recruiting better than Crean's worst class--the're saying his recruiting is "arguably as strong as" as Crean's two BEST classes.

Back in June, the majority believed for whatever reason that Buzz couldn't possibly have had a team of good players--collectively his roster was arguably less talented than the 2004 team. 

Now, suddenly those players (minus 1st rounder Lazar) when coupled with some highly rated  incoming players (who have yet to see their first D1 game) are on par with Lazar, Novak, Diener Wes, Jerel, Dwyane, DJ and Rjax? 

Why don't you all stop trying to figure out how to spin this as pro-Buzz/anti-Crean and join me in the common sense and objective view: Buzz's best recruits are arguably better than Crean's worst, but haven't yet proven that they deserve to be declared equal to or better than Crean's best.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Why don't you all stop trying to figure out how to spin this as pro-Buzz/anti-Crean and join me in the common sense and objective view: Buzz's best recruits are arguably better than Crean's worst, but haven't yet proven that they deserve to be declared equal to or better than Crean's best.

My this quote feels like ...... "Boy people, stop talking about the "Buzz vs. Crean" debate and take my my correct opinion in the "Buzz vs. Crean" debate"

just my thought.....

[Marquette84]

My this quote feels like ...... "Boy people, stop talking about the "Buzz vs. Crean" debate and take my my correct opinion in the "Buzz vs. Crean" debate"

just my thought.....

And your quote feels like "Damn, he's right, but the LAST thing I want to do is admit it public, so let me dodge the argument completely."

[texaswarrior74]

Why does it seem that EVERY thread evolves into a Buzz vs Crean thread in some way or another?

Why can we NEVER stay on topic?

This board needs to forget about Crean.....he's gone, he's not coming back and Buzz IS our coach and is doing a far better job that anyone on this board would have ever guessed the day he was named our new HC.....

Get over it people.....it's gotten REALLY OLD.....

Buzz is our coach and has done nothing to deserve anything less than our complete support.....now move on and let's start talking about the upcoming season....

[wadesworld]

And your quote feels like "Damn, he's right, but the LAST thing I want to do is admit it public, so let me dodge the argument completely."

I made a similar point a while back, suggesting that Buzz had more talent last year than Crean's least talented class of 2004.  At that time most people disagreed with me.

Fast forward a few months, we now have people arguing that not only was Buzz's recruiting better than Crean's worst class--the're saying his recruiting is "arguably as strong as" as Crean's two BEST classes.

Back in June, the majority believed for whatever reason that Buzz couldn't possibly have had a team of good players--collectively his roster was arguably less talented than the 2004 team. 

Now, suddenly those players (minus 1st rounder Lazar) when coupled with some highly rated  incoming players (who have yet to see their first D1 game) are on par with Lazar, Novak, Diener Wes, Jerel, Dwyane, DJ and Rjax? 

Why don't you all stop trying to figure out how to spin this as pro-Buzz/anti-Crean and join me in the common sense and objective view: Buzz's best recruits are arguably better than Crean's worst, but haven't yet proven that they deserve to be declared equal to or better than Crean's best.

LOL this guy.  Don't question him.  He knows all.

So really, you think the Tanned Thomas's WORST recruiting class at Marquette University is BETTER than Buzz William's best in his 2 years?!  If we were talking about this in person I'd be laughing in your face right now.

So let's take a look.  Tom Crean's 2007 class included:
- Scott Christopherson
- Patrick Hazel
- Trevor Mbakwe

I'm pretty sure you could combine Buzz's past 2 recruiting classes and throw EVERYTHING they have and will do away except for Junior Cadougan's combined like 12 minutes after rupturing his achilles tendon last year and Buzz would STILL have a better recruiting class than that.  What a JOKE.  Oh shoot, I forgot, Robert Frozena and Damien Saunders were in that class.  Forget anything I said, that class was a DOUZY!

[HoopsMalone]

Buzz is better than Crean at recruiting, and we are all happy he is here.  We got dumped by our girlfriend and are now dating a girl who is ten times hotter, and its a "how do you like me now" mentality towards Crean.  Very fair I think.

The comparison is not completely fair, however.  While Crean did have developing Wade and the Final Four to sell, he did not have the Big East and great facilities until the end.  Buzz has the Final Four added to the Al years when selling the MU legacy on kids and now has top notch facilities and the top conference to sell.  Though Wade probably deserves a lot of the credit for the MU renaissance, Crean does need credit.

Now, as far as being a talented recruiter, Buzz does have the edge.  Even with a better product to sell than Crean had on some level, I don't think Crean would have gotten some of the players we have now, or get 5-stars interested who are not from Wisconsin like Buzz is doing with Miller and did with Snaer.  I base that on Crean not being able to land any 5-stars arguably a top 5 program in the country all-time, though in fairness he has had some looks I think over at IU.  It really should be easier at IU, even with the mess that program was in.  MU came into what could have become a mess as he had no good underclassmen, but he took care of business. 

The most important thing that suggests Buzz is a better recruiter is that he got players to come play for him as an unknown commodity.  Crean was a very much known commodity and did well, but not as well as Buzz.  Now that Buzz has proven that he can win consistently and put players in the NBA, his stock goes up even more.

Game coaching is a Buzz win by a mile.  We have upgraded at coach, and I am so happy about that.  I don't know what there really is to argue. 

[Earl Tatum]

Yes it would be nice to have Quincy Miller. But I would definitely camp on Michael Shaw's and Nick Faust's doorstep. D'Angelo Harrison or Juan Anderson, one of those two wouldn't be bad either if we don't get Faust. Rodney Hood has to big of a list and he will go south. Shaw is the main priority. Come on Buzz get er' done. I think Junior and Smitty will be good PG's. Would like to see Vander do it.

[NersEllenson]

And your quote feels like "Damn, he's right, but the LAST thing I want to do is admit it public, so let me dodge the argument completely."

It's funny how you argue the talent level of Diener and Novak, yet made excuses for them and their inability to get MU to the NCAA in 2004 and 2005.  They were great players, but perhaps they were handicapped by their coach?  After all we returned every player except DWade and RJax from the Final Four team..but weren't able to even win our first round NIT game in 2004??

Lastly, no, we have not seen the on court results of Buzz's recruits.  That said, you list Novak, Diener, Wes, Jerel, Dominic and Lazar as the talented players Crean landed - all of these were Top 100 kids.  So, most likely we can infer that the Top 100 kids Buzz has landed in just 2.5 seasons on the job: Cadougan, Williams, Vander, Jamil Jones, Jamil Wilson, Reggie Smith (105) - should produce similar results..unless our player development has gotten worse under Buzz..or the rankings of the High School talent evaluators have gotten worse.  I tend to think our player development under Buzz will be equal to, if not better than we saw under TC.

[Earl Tatum]

  Ithink Buzz has TC on game coaching and recruiting. Give TC a c+ in game and B on recruiting, plus keeping his hair in place. Buzz has him on both counts and doesn't worry about his hair.  GO WARRIORS!!!!!!!

[Canadian Dimes]

It's funny how you argue the talent level of Diener and Novak, yet made excuses for them and their inability to get MU to the NCAA in 2004 and 2005.  They were great players, but perhaps they were handicapped by their coach?  After all we returned every player except DWade and RJax from the Final Four team..but weren't able to even win our first round NIT game in 2004??

Lastly, no, we have not seen the on court results of Buzz's recruits.  That said, you list Novak, Diener, Wes, Jerel, Dominic and Lazar as the talented players Crean landed - all of these were Top 100 kids.  So, most likely we can infer that the Top 100 kids Buzz has landed in just 2.5 seasons on the job: Cadougan, Williams, Vander, Jamil Jones, Jamil Wilson, Reggie Smith (105) - should produce similar results..unless our player development has gotten worse under Buzz..or the rankings of the High School talent evaluators have gotten worse.  I tend to think our player development under Buzz will be equal to, if not better than we saw under TC.

while i am the last one that will ever defend creans recruiting I also dont think many people have really ever said diener and Novak were not great players...i think all agree they were.  I also dont think many will say Crean handcuffed them they had the green light and alot of sets for them. Those guys did great on good teams if Crean ever held them back it was due to terrible recruiting  Novak showed what he could do with good players when he was a freshman and Senior  diener his first two years.  ...problem was little talent around them.. the three amigos saved Creans ass and then he did the same thing to them

[Marquette84]

So really, you think the Tanned Thomas's WORST recruiting class at Marquette University is BETTER than Buzz William's best in his 2 years?!  If we were talking about this in person I'd be laughing in your face right now.

No.

*I* actually took the position that Buzz had more talent last year than Crean did in 2004.

Its Ners and Lenny and Jmeyer1 who who all argued that Tanned Tommy had more talent in 2004. 

And too bad we're not in person, because I'd get to see your face look something like this:

[Marquette84]

It's funny how you argue the talent level of Diener and Novak, yet made excuses for them and their inability to get MU to the NCAA in 2004 and 2005.  They were great players, but perhaps they were handicapped by their coach?  After all we returned every player except DWade and RJax from the Final Four team..but weren't able to even win our first round NIT game in 2004??

I made a simple observation that the 2004 roster was Crean's least talented.  Therefore, it was his worst performing. 

And with a roster built around Lazar, DJO, Buycks, Butler, and Acker, Buzz simply had more talent last year than Crean did in 2004.

That's not an excuse--its just plain simple fact.  We had nobody picked in the 2004 draft--just a couple a players still a year or two away.  In 2010, we had  a first rounder NBA pick THAT SEASON--and we STILL have two potential future NBA players in DJO and Butler.

My God, you're so afraid that someone might think less of Buzz if, gasp, we admit that he actually had some talented players.   

Lastly, no, we have not seen the on court results of Buzz's recruits. 
That said, you list Novak, Diener, Wes, Jerel, Dominic and Lazar as the talented players Crean landed - all of these were Top 100 kids.  So, most likely we can infer that the Top 100 kids Buzz has landed in just 2.5 seasons on the job: Cadougan, Williams, Vander, Jamil Jones, Jamil Wilson, Reggie Smith (105) - should produce similar results..unless our player development has gotten worse under Buzz..or the rankings of the High School talent evaluators have gotten worse.  I tend to think our player development under Buzz will be equal to, if not better than we saw under TC.

Based on the 2 top 100 incoming freshmen that we've seen Buzz work with so far (E. Williams and Maymon), I would say that there is nothing to suggest that Buzz outperforms Crean in getting freshmen ready to contribute. 

Its fair to say that Diener, Novak, the Amigos, and Lazar all made more significant contributions as freshman than either Williams or Maymon.

You and I both hope that Buzz DOES get it together with this year's incoming frosh.  I hope that Maymon and Wililams were aberrations and not what we can expect from highly rated freshmen.

I sincerely hope that Buzz can get Vander to have a freshman year that is as good as Diener or Jerel had. I hope that Jones can contribute the way that Wes Matthews did as a frosh.  I hope that Cadougan can come back from injury and give us what DJ did his freshman season. 

[NersEllenson]

I made a simple observation that the 2004 roster was Crean's least talented.  Therefore, it was his worst performing. 

And with a roster built around Lazar, DJO, Buycks, Butler, and Acker, Buzz simply had more talent last year than Crean did in 2004.

That's not an excuse--its just plain simple fact.  We had nobody picked in the 2004 draft--just a couple a players still a year or two away.  In 2010, we had  a first rounder NBA pick THAT SEASON--and we STILL have two potential future NBA players in DJO and Butler.

My God, you're so afraid that someone might think less of Buzz if, gasp, we admit that he actually had some talented players.   


Based on the 2 top 100 incoming freshmen that we've seen Buzz work with so far (E. Williams and Maymon), I would say that there is nothing to suggest that Buzz outperforms Crean in getting freshmen ready to contribute. 

Its fair to say that Diener, Novak, the Amigos, and Lazar all made more significant contributions as freshman than either Williams or Maymon.

You and I both hope that Buzz DOES get it together with this year's incoming frosh.  I hope that Maymon and Wililams were aberrations and not what we can expect from highly rated freshmen.

I sincerely hope that Buzz can get Vander to have a freshman year that is as good as Diener or Jerel had. I hope that Jones can contribute the way that Wes Matthews did as a frosh.  I hope that Cadougan can come back from injury and give us what DJ did his freshman season. 

Once again you twist facts and previous statements you've made.  You argue and argued the talents of Diener and Novak, but yet offer no justification as to how these 2 talented kids couldn't get their team to the NCAA tournament..one year after being a Final Four team.  If Crean had done a better job recruiting (and coaching) Novak and Diener wouldn't have been left to carry the 2004 teams all by themselves.

Lastly, Williams, Maymon, Cadougan, Blue, Jones, etc..didn't/don't need to make significant contributions as freshman, because Buzz has recruited enough talent and depth in just 2.5 years to where they don't HAVE to make huge impacts as freshman. Wes, Rel, Zar, and Dom HAD to play as freshman, because there were so many misses in our recruiting by Crean in 2003 and 2004..that we basically didn't have any decent players to start in 2005 2006.

[Marquette84]

Once again you twist facts and previous statements you've made.  You argue and argued the talents of Diener and Novak, but yet offer no justification as to how these 2 talented kids couldn't get their team to the NCAA tournament..one year after being a Final Four team.  

I've twisted nothing--I've been absolutely 100% consistent that I thought 2004 was Crean's least talented year.  I know we had Novak as a sophomore and Diener as a junior in 2004.  That wasn't enough talent to get to the tournament--especially with 6 other NCAA teams in conference.

If Crean had done a better job recruiting (and coaching) Novak and Diener wouldn't have been left to carry the 2004 teams all by themselves.

That was exactly my point all along--Novak (as a soph) and Diener (as a junior) weren't enough to carry the team.  We didn't have enough talent in 2004.  Add a 1st round pick like Lazar to that roster, and I'm quite confident that we would have equalled the 22 wins we had this year.

Lastly, Williams, Maymon, Cadougan, Blue, Jones, etc..didn't/don't need to make significant contributions as freshman, because Buzz has recruited enough talent and depth in just 2.5 years to where they don't HAVE to make huge impacts as freshman.

First, let's recall that at one point you claimed the cupboard was bare.  Now you claim the roster is so loaded with talent that we didn't need top 100 frosh to even contribute.  So which was it?  Bare cupboard or loaded roster?    

Second, two posts ago you listed top 100 frosh by name and claimed that "Cadougan, Williams, Vander, Jamil Jones, Jamil Wilson, Reggie Smith (105) - should produce similar results [as Crean's frosh]."

My reply:  based on Buzz's experience with the two top 100 freshmen he DID have the chance to develop, he hasn't yet demonstrated that he is as good or better than Crean in that department.

The only response you could make was:  "You're right.  I agree with you that Buzz hasn't yet proven that he can develop frosh--I join you in hoping he can do so this year."  

Instead, you twist the argument once again:
"Williams, Maymon, Cadougan, Blue, Jones, etc..didn't/don't need to make significant contributions as freshman, because Buzz has recruited enough talent and depth in just 2.5 years to where they don't HAVE to make huge impacts as freshman."

Okay.  Fine.  Except that its inconsistent with your previous claim that Buzz is as effective as Crean in developing frosh.  NOW you claim Buzz didn't develop them because he didn't have to--because that "bare cupboard" was soooo deep that not even a top 100 freshman could even crack the rotation as the 8th or 9th man.

However, there's one more thing--even this new/twisted argument that the roster was too deep for freshmen to crack it is BS.  Let's compare Williams and Maymon to Diener or Novak or Hayward.  Diener played behind Dwyane Wade (so.) and Cordell Henry (sr.). Crean still found a way to develop Diener enough as a frosh to get him in the rotation for 24 mpg.   Novak played behind Merritt (jr)/Townsend (so) and Crean still got him in every game on that loaded 2003 roster for 16 mpg.  Hayward played behind Wes and Fitz--still got 15 mpg (and earned a starting spot by year's end).

THAT is how you develop a freshman on a loaded roster.  

[NersEllenson]

84 - Debating Maymon is probably ridiculous at this point...but..I believe Maymon did average about 4.4ppg and 4 rebs per game, and 15 minutes per game.  Erik Williams?  We'll see how his career plays out.  Last year, not a lot of need to play him due to Lazar, Jimmy and Fulce essentially playing the same position.

As for this year's freshman - as is the case in most well run programs that recruit well year in and year out - the freshman won't HAVE to contribute a ton..as we have a lot of experience and talent as seniors and juniors in the program.  No one would deny that Wes, Dom and Jerel played great as freshman - but like most comparisons, rarely are all things equal.  In this case, the reality is there is ALOT more talent at MU, than there was when the Big 3 arrived on campus and HAD to start.

Obviously neither one of us are going to change each others mind - you will defend Tom C till death, and I will put forth that Buzz is a better coach and better recruiter than was Tom Crean.  Crean did well at MU, but I just like Buzz ALOT better and see a much greater upside than TC.  Time will tell. 

And Joanie - In the meantime, I think you should spend less time here, and get out on the road and help your husband recruit, as it appears IU is once again not landing any top talent this singing period -even with all that PT available...and Indiana, being..Indiana.

[Marquette84]

84 - Debating Maymon is probably ridiculous at this point...but..I believe Maymon did average about 4.4ppg and 4 rebs per game, and 15 minutes per game.  Erik Williams?  We'll see how his career plays out.  Last year, not a lot of need to play him due to Lazar, Jimmy and Fulce essentially playing the same position.

So your argument is that Erik was caught in the same exact type of roster logjam as Diener in 2002, Novak in 2003, and Lazar in 2007. 

Let's be fair:  we played a six or seven man rotation that was ranked 341st in height.  And you honestly think that we couldn't play a 6'8" top 100 forward because we WERE TOO DEEP at his position? 

Maybe he was simplay a recruiting bust--a player not as good as advertised. Maybe Buzz couldn't or didn't get him ready in time. 

But please, lets dispense with your BS that there weren't enough minutes to go around because we were too deep.

As for this year's freshman - as is the case in most well run programs that recruit well year in and year out - the freshman won't HAVE to contribute a ton..as we have a lot of experience and talent as seniors and juniors in the program.

More BS.  Well run programs start freshman ALL THE TIME.

  No one would deny that Wes, Dom and Jerel played great as freshman - but like most comparisons, rarely are all things equal.  In this case, the reality is there is ALOT more talent at MU, than there was when the Big 3 arrived on campus and HAD to start.

Still More BS.  Joe Chapman could have started ahead of McNeal (and did start 22 games the previous season).  Fitz or Amoroso could have started ahead of Wes. And those guys were all better than Fulce--who you argued was one of the roadblocks ahead of Williams.

Of the Amigos, only James had to start because we didn't have any other PG options.   

Of course we're not even arguing over whether Williams had a chance to become a starter--he wasn't even developed enough to even crack the rotation!

Obviously neither one of us are going to change each others mind - you will defend Tom C till death, and I will put forth that Buzz is a better coach and better recruiter than was Tom Crean.  Crean did well at MU, but I just like Buzz ALOT better and see a much greater upside than TC.  Time will tell. 

Your mind won't change because you decide everything by one thing and one thing only: what makes Buzz look best and Crean look worst.

Doesn't matter that Buzz hasn't yet developed a top 100 HS player into a solid contributor --you can declare he does a better job than Crean at player development, even though Crean has a solid record of bringing Frosh into the rotation.

When I point out Crean's solid record (and Buzz's lack therof), you change the subject.  When I call you on that, you resort to your typical childish namecalling:

And Joanie - In the meantime, I think you should spend less time here, and get out on the road and help your husband recruit, as it appears IU is once again not landing any top talent this singing period -even with all that PT available...and Indiana, being..Indiana.

Childish and old.  Unfortunately, its rather typical from you.

[NersEllenson]

84 - I will continute to call Joanie Crean, and be childish - but I can promise I won't make dumb statements like you've offered below:

The only response you could make was:  "You're right.  I agree with you that Buzz hasn't yet proven that he can develop frosh--I join you in hoping he can do so this year."

And your quote feels like "Damn, he's right, but the LAST thing I want to do is admit it public, so let me dodge the argument completely."

It is quite mature to make statements such as the above.  That said, I'm not surprised, considering your long-standing pat yourself on the back routine.  At this point, I'm going to have to say, only a MAJOR LEAGUE IDIOT, would prefer to have Tom Crean as Head Coach at MU.  Only a major league idiot would try to indict Buzz Williams for his development of freshman Top 100 talent (as he's basically had 1 available such player  -Erik Williams).  Only a major league idiot would suggest that Wes Matthews and Lazar Hayward and Jerel McNeal didn't make large strides in their production under Buzz Williams.  Only Wes Matthews would say about how he was beign utilized as a senior, "I finally have the shackles off of me." 

Seriously, why don't you just go be an IU fan - as your continued skepticism and negativity pertaining to our current coach is just reaching the point of absurd.  One thing I can tell you is that when MU does win a Big East Championship in the near future, and does make an Elite 8/Final Four in the near future...and then continues to make NCAA tournaments thereafter - and not have a falloff that results in them going from a Final Four team to a2-time first round NIT tourney loser the following 2 years..I'll be sure to let you know:  "I'm right, you are wrong."  I have NO problem stopoing to your level of ridiculousness.  Noentheless, I don't blame you for not being an IU fan, as if you like to watch winning basketball..well...you just aren't going to get it there. 

[Marquette84]

I will continute to call Joanie Crean, and be childish -

This says everything we need to know about your character.

Ignored.  Good bye.

[avid1010]

Now, suddenly those players (minus 1st rounder Lazar) when coupled with some highly rated  incoming players (who have yet to see their first D1 game) are on par with Lazar, Novak, Diener Wes, Jerel, Dwyane, DJ and Rjax? 

What's your point with listing the players above?  Give Buzz 9 years at MU and then you can compare his best players with TC's best players.  People are comparing recruiting classes.  If you want to list players, compare all players.  TC walked away from four of those players.  Is it right to take credit for the good that comes from something/someone you quit on?

[jtrash37]

Quite frankly, Marquette84 vs. Ners is beyond annoying.  I was hoping the 8th and 9th pages of this thread were going to be refreshing our info on the Miller situation.  Unfortunately, it is a pissing match between you to.  Save the back and forth bs for IMs, if you please and let's try to get on topic?  I realize it's a message board, and it's fun for random, anonymous arguments--  LET IT GO!!!

[NersEllenson]

Quite frankly, Marquette84 vs. Ners is beyond annoying.  I was hoping the 8th and 9th pages of this thread were going to be refreshing our info on the Miller situation.  Unfortunately, it is a pissing match between you to.  Save the back and forth bs for IMs, if you please and let's try to get on topic?  I realize it's a message board, and it's fun for random, anonymous arguments--  LET IT GO!!!

No problem, but..at this point, do you have any new information to add to the recruiting developments of Quincy Miller?  Please go ahead and add whatever update you can provide.  Threads on message boards will always go off into a lot of different tangents.  Unfortunately, 84 must always turn everything into a debate of how Tom Crean's regime as compared to present was better - and though I'll pass on a lot of his babble, every now and then it needs to be checked/rebutted.

[Nukem2]

Yawwnnnnnn....time to get a good night's rest from this silliness....

[MerrittsMustache]

Yawwnnnnnn....time to get a good night's rest from this silliness....

Do you sleep better now knowing that Buzz is MU's coach or was it easier to catch some z's with Crean leading the troops?

[Skatastrophy]

Ithink Buzz has TC on game coaching and recruiting. Give TC a c+ in game and B on recruiting, plus keeping his hair in place. Buzz has him on both counts and doesn't worry about his hair.  GO WARRIORS!!!!!!!

Every once in a while I see someone's handle on the forums and think... man, what if that was really who they say they are?

[dw3dw3dw3]

To get back on topic.... There was a Q Miller fbook post today.
Miller posted on Facebook today: "My list currently has 5 schools on it. Duke, Louisville, Baylor, Oklahoma and Marquette

Long shot, but good to get some ink I guess.